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  1. #1
    Community Member Kalari's Avatar
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    Default Divines: why do so many others know our role?

    Just wondering aloud after reading some stuff in another thread.

    I honestly wonder what the ratio of people who say "A cleric/fvs should be able to do healing as a main role, and if they do not or god forbid utilize the class in another way (Damage, battle) they are gimping themselves" actually play said classes?

    Someone even threw in Druids for measure.

    I know the abilities of these classes, I also know that it is no fun to spend time I could be getting rid of trash mobs and putting damage spells on bosses just sitting around waiting for someone to get a boo boo. In fact I love it because in raids in my guild if your not doing damage with your divine they call you out on it. So maybe my perspective is skewed. Is it not team work to contribute to getting rid of the enemy to? Not just waiting for people to get hurt? Just want to know what people think on this because that thread had me really aggravated.

    I know in mmo land divine classes are expected to play healers hyuk

    But it is clear that if any divine classes in this game or any other mmo were meant to only do one task they would give only spells that do one task.

    And while some mmos are set up for raids, warzones, or other battle situations where their "Healer" types have to focus on that task only, ddo has always been the breath of fresh air when allowing a player to make a character they can personally enjoy. I hate to see that freedom trampled upon by those who only think x can do x and y must do y.

    People wonder why many divines are choosing to post byoh, or solo or guild only. I just wonder if these players who seem to know so much about what our class can and should be doing actually play the class?

    I can answer yes to playing every class in this game, nearly done capping all of them to just in case someone wants to through that back at me.
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  2. #2
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    For the most part I will give you a hearty "Hear hear!"

    But there are always those situations where it is appropriate to fall back into primary healbot mode - you join a party or raid lfm with only divine icons offered and after a couple of moments playing you realise the group is going to need full hand-holding and they really meant those icons would be one such situation. A major stuff up or unexpected disaster point would be another situation.

    Also BYOH by a divine on their lfm may not necessarily mean YOU ARE GOING TO GET NO HEAJLZING EVA SO DON"T ASK - it may just mean some self sufficiently required. You could always send a tell and ask mentioning that you are pretty self sufficient. And from that you can both work out if partying is going to work out for you both or not.

    You're right about the other MMOs. This gives you a chance while on a divine to explain how the hireling system works if someone has been particularly obnoxious right before you drop group

    Disclaimers - I play a lot of divines and love my barbarians.
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  3. #3
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    You ask, why do so many others know our role?

    Two reasons.

    First, many have played clerics and favored souls to cap. This means they know what the class can and cannot do.

    Second, many still view DDO as a type of D&D and therefore based on group structure and dynamics. Each class contributes something that the others cannot (or that they can -- but less effectively) in order to make the whole stronger.

    Combine these and there are many who understand that the most productive role for divines in most groups is to provide solid curative and healing support.

    Does that mean that this is the only thing that divines are good for? No it does not. Does it excuse other classes from having the best available means to self cure or self heal? No it does not.

    But, it does mean that mass cures on 3 melee characters where each is dishing out hundreds, maybe thousands of points damage each second is probably more DPS and spell point effective than divines using offensive spells.

    For many divines this is going to be the case. It is the exception, not the rule, when a divine is fully geared at end game where this even starts to be a debatable point.

    Until then most divines contribute more to party success by being able to both cure/heal AND provide other forms of offensive and defensive spell support.

  4. #4
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    Hjeal meh!
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  5. #5
    Community Member Zillee's Avatar
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    I think we are reading different forums. The impression I've gained from threads here is that if a divine is only healing then they are wasting a party slot, with responses to those who wish to just heal often bordering on the derisive.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalari View Post
    Just wondering aloud after reading some stuff in another thread.

    I honestly wonder what the ratio of people who say "A cleric/fvs should be able to do healing as a main role, and if they do not or god forbid utilize the class in another way (Damage, battle) they are gimping themselves" actually play said classes?

    Someone even threw in Druids for measure.

    I know the abilities of these classes, I also know that it is no fun to spend time I could be getting rid of trash mobs and putting damage spells on bosses just sitting around waiting for someone to get a boo boo. In fact I love it because in raids in my guild if your not doing damage with your divine they call you out on it. So maybe my perspective is skewed. Is it not team work to contribute to getting rid of the enemy to? Not just waiting for people to get hurt? Just want to know what people think on this because that thread had me really aggravated.

    I know in mmo land divine classes are expected to play healers hyuk

    But it is clear that if any divine classes in this game or any other mmo were meant to only do one task they would give only spells that do one task.

    And while some mmos are set up for raids, warzones, or other battle situations where their "Healer" types have to focus on that task only, ddo has always been the breath of fresh air when allowing a player to make a character they can personally enjoy. I hate to see that freedom trampled upon by those who only think x can do x and y must do y.

    People wonder why many divines are choosing to post byoh, or solo or guild only. I just wonder if these players who seem to know so much about what our class can and should be doing actually play the class?

    I can answer yes to playing every class in this game, nearly done capping all of them to just in case someone wants to through that back at me.
    The role of a divine is the same as the role of any class: play the class to its full potential. If you think a divine that never casts a heal on anyone is playing a toon to its full potential, then you have a fundamental misunderstanding about the class.

    Any divine that never heals is a flavor build, plain and simple. If the player of the build was interested in being the best they could be, they'd toss heals as well, or roll another class. Divines aren't the top of any category, except HEALING. While I'm all for people playing flavor builds, I'm not all for people pretending flavor builds are the way top toons SHOULD be played. I build self sufficient toons. I expect anyone that joins my groups, to play self sufficient toons. I take the first five and go. If a divine hits my group and decides to never toss a heal, then I regard them as a bad player; they clearly do not know how to play their toon to its full potential or are purposely not playing their toon to its full potential. If it was any other class acting this way, it wouldn't get support from the community. But for some reason, divines get a pass.

  7. #7
    Community Member Kalari's Avatar
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    I was in a pen and paper group for many years, in fact some of my old group now play ddo.

    I have played clerics in Pen and Paper and I can tell you quite honestly there were more times they were fighting then healing. Maybe my DM was really cool (yeah he was shout out to ya Ryan)

    But I never played in a campaign where my healer was told "hey you are a divine stick back of the group and make sure we are kept alive"

    And just by you Therigar saying something like "they know what the class can and cannot do" makes me wonder if you have really played a divine in ddo.

    We are not so limited, I know it because I have played several forms of cleric, from hybrid mixes to just pure clerics who focused on their different spells. I have several favored souls as well melee and casting. I am not talking out my ass when I say I know there is no limit outside player's mentality to what a divine in ddo can do.

    I used laugh at all the bemoaning threads on tank souls how they were not true tanks then watched my guild leader build one of the best ones and took his build and made it my own. People always assume because they cannot do something with a class that others cannot or should not. I don't want to discourage anyone willing to put said builds together from doing that. I hate seeing people trying to ebb away ddo's unique feature to fit their ideal mmo play.

    I hear you Meli but now a days in raiding it is so few and far between that I get people who really take so much damage that they cry for heals its not even funny, with ed's playing smart even some who chug silver flame pots like not tomorrow it is much easier for divines even in raids not to have to always hang back and I am thankful for that.

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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalari View Post
    Apeman you get no bananas from me! NO! bad ape man lol
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  9. #9
    Community Member Kalari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    The role of a divine is the same as the role of any class: play the class to its full potential. If you think a divine that never casts a heal on anyone is playing a toon to its full potential, then you have a fundamental misunderstanding about the class.

    Any divine that never heals is a flavor build, plain and simple. If the player of the build was interested in being the best they could be, they'd toss heals as well, or roll another class. Divines aren't the top of any category, except HEALING. While I'm all for people playing flavor builds, I'm not all for people pretending flavor builds are the way top toons SHOULD be played. I build self sufficient toons. I expect anyone that joins my groups, to play self sufficient toons. I take the first five and go. If a divine hits my group and decides to never toss a heal, then I regard them as a bad player; they clearly do not know how to play their toon to its full potential or are purposely not playing their toon to its full potential. If it was any other class acting this way, it wouldn't get support from the community. But for some reason, divines get a pass.
    Or they can play with other like minded individuals, you see its not just your way or the highway, since you don't pay for peoples subs, you don't roll characters for them so you can only state your opinion on how said classes are supposed to be played. And I have a fundamental understanding of what is fun, and what is not fun is being told that players that do not live up to other players expectations in this game are just wasting the character. Its sad that some people stay in that safe little box of theres and never truly experience ddo for the awesome game that it is. I hope that more people build characters that they enjoy there will always be groups for someone in this game.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalari View Post
    Or they can play with other like minded individuals, you see its not just your way or the highway, since you don't pay for peoples subs, you don't roll characters for them so you can only state your opinion on how said classes are supposed to be played. And I have a fundamental understanding of what is fun, and what is not fun is being told that players that do not live up to other players expectations in this game are just wasting the character. Its sad that some people stay in that safe little box of theres and never truly experience ddo for the awesome game that it is. I hope that more people build characters that they enjoy there will always be groups for someone in this game.
    I'm obviously not saying divines that never heal should be banned from the game. Of course people should be allowed to play toons any way they want. But we shouldn't pretend they are optimal.

  11. #11
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    Why do people expect divines to heal?

    Many classes can heal. I even once solo-healed a pre-motu Elite VOD pug . . . on a Ranger (don't ask). My bard's been a healer in ELOB back in the day. heck, I once even stopped to scroll a tank while on my fighter.

    But Divines simply are the best at that roll. When on my Cleric or FvS I know that in addition to anything else I'm doing I know that if somebody needs to be healed I should be the one doing it. Sure my bard, ranger, and pally can do the same but they just can't do it as well.

    I'd go as far as saying for 95% of the game you just don't need a dedicated healer for anything. For that 5% of the game a divine is just best in that role.

    This is talking about vets, new players need more help than that.
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  12. #12
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    I have a serious question, and rather than start a new thread about it, i will ask it here. This is a sincere question, in no way intended to be snarky or derisive.

    If you don't like to heal, what is the draw of playing a cleric? Not a favored soul, a cleric specifically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    Why do people expect divines to heal?

    Many classes can heal. I even once solo-healed a pre-motu Elite VOD pug . . . on a Ranger (don't ask). My bard's been a healer in ELOB back in the day. heck, I once even stopped to scroll a tank while on my fighter.

    But Divines simply are the best at that roll. When on my Cleric or FvS I know that in addition to anything else I'm doing I know that if somebody needs to be healed I should be the one doing it. Sure my bard, ranger, and pally can do the same but they just can't do it as well.

    I'd go as far as saying for 95% of the game you just don't need a dedicated healer for anything. For that 5% of the game a divine is just best in that role.
    And this is all I'm saying.

    Let me give a bad example because... why not.

    About a month ago, a well-known forumite and Ghallanda troll was the first person to join my ip Irestone Elite. They were on a favored soul. As we're making our way through the quest, more people join and come in. Once everyone is in, the fvs says, "I'm not a healer".

    People pipe up, "oh no, I forgot to get pots".

    So I respond, "okay no problem, I have wands (on my helf barb), me and fvs can spot heal in emergencies."

    Fvs, "No, I don't heal at all".

    Me, "Really? Fine, I'll do all the healing since I know how to multitask".

    Fvs, "I already have a healer toon, this is my caster".

    Me, "fine, whatever, not a big deal".

    So, the quest continues, and I divide my time between killing and healing the probably new players, meanwhile, the fvs does... what? I have no clue. Attempt to cc a mob at a time, usually failing, with his command?

    To me, this fvs is a badly played toon. The quest would have gone faster if I didn't have to continuously drop back and heal everyone. The fvs would have pulled his weight... if he actually did anything. But, for whatever reason, there's people that actually think this kind of behavior should be defended. Meh, whatever.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    And this is all I'm saying.

    Let me give a bad example because... why not.

    About a month ago, a well-known forumite and Ghallanda troll was the first person to join my ip Irestone Elite. They were on a favored soul. As we're making our way through the quest, more people join and come in. Once everyone is in, the fvs says, "I'm not a healer".

    People pipe up, "oh no, I forgot to get pots".

    So I respond, "okay no problem, I have wands (on my helf barb), me and fvs can spot heal in emergencies."

    Fvs, "No, I don't heal at all".

    Me, "Really? Fine, I'll do all the healing since I know how to multitask".

    Fvs, "I already have a healer toon, this is my caster".

    Me, "fine, whatever, not a big deal".

    So, the quest continues, and I divide my time between killing and healing the probably new players, meanwhile, the fvs does... what? I have no clue. Attempt to cc a mob at a time, usually failing, with his command?

    To me, this fvs is a badly played toon. The quest would have gone faster if I didn't have to continuously drop back and heal everyone. The fvs would have pulled his weight... if he actually did anything. But, for whatever reason, there's people that actually think this kind of behavior should be defended. Meh, whatever.
    if this is the player I THINK you're talking about that in no way reflects the power of the class. That's just a bad player playing badly.
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  15. #15
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalari View Post
    Or they can play with other like minded individuals, you see its not just your way or the highway, since you don't pay for peoples subs, you don't roll characters for them so you can only state your opinion on how said classes are supposed to be played. And I have a fundamental understanding of what is fun, and what is not fun is being told that players that do not live up to other players expectations in this game are just wasting the character. Its sad that some people stay in that safe little box of theres and never truly experience ddo for the awesome game that it is. I hope that more people build characters that they enjoy there will always be groups for someone in this game.
    I'm sure it's the current how to heal better with my cleric thread that is frustrating you. Some people make clerics because they want to heal other people. My problem with many of the byoh crowd (not you specifically) is that they just can't deal with this. They're not really in favor of choice. They are just as guilty of telling someone else how to play as anybody.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    I have a serious question, and rather than start a new thread about it, i will ask it here. This is a sincere question, in no way intended to be snarky or derisive.

    If you don't like to heal, what is the draw of playing a cleric? Not a favored soul, a cleric specifically.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    ...

    I'd go as far as saying for 95% of the game you just don't need a dedicated healer for anything. For that 5% of the game a divine is just best in that role.

    This is talking about vets, new players need more help than that.
    This right here is the disconnect that people don't get. Cleric in the Back is an MMO thing, it does not come from PnP.

    I agree, it takes work to heal as well as what comes naturally to the Divine classes.

    Sometimes this can be explained very easily as "personal perspective". Some find it difficult to use all of their abilities at once, these types of people also avoid complex classes.

    Don't sweat it, there will always be armchair quarterbacks.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by susiedupfer View Post
    As a past life on the road to completionist.
    For some players, this times 3.

    I stopped doing divine lives for my Wizard after completing 3 fvs lives. Threw the 3 planned cleric ones out of the window for a time. I already have a couple of divines I use for raid healing in select groups. That's enough, actually more than enough since it's clear that those who complain the most don't play the classes. And as such have no understanding of just how annoying they are at times. And how they make themselves unwelcome in my groups by way of sheer laziness.
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  19. #19
    Community Member Kalari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    I have a serious question, and rather than start a new thread about it, i will ask it here. This is a sincere question, in no way intended to be snarky or derisive.

    If you don't like to heal, what is the draw of playing a cleric? Not a favored soul, a cleric specifically.
    Because a sorc is limited in spells, my wizard cannot blade barrier, comet fall or destruct, they cannot without cutting off their spells using Tensers cast a spell that raises their strength and attack and wield a weapon without cross eyed stares even though fighter wizards were one of my favorite pen and paper mixtures.

    Its simple just because the class has a function does not mean it has to be its core function. I do not rally against those who want to play heal bots, but I do not want to be pushed in a corner because I choose not to play that way. There is so much more divine classes can do and if more people played them even if they had to keep rolling till they found a comfort zone they would realize this.
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  20. #20
    Community Member Kalari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    I'm sure it's the current how to heal better with my cleric thread that is frustrating you. Some people make clerics because they want to heal other people. My problem with many of the byoh crowd (not you specifically) is that they just can't deal with this. They're not really in favor of choice. They are just as guilty of telling someone else how to play as anybody.
    No it was the team work thread I didnt even know about that other thread I love how people equate team work to players knowing their class roles, and I dont just say this for divines, I accept anyone who builds a character that is fun for them, I have never told a person who wants to play a class their way that I wont play with them especially since with those players we tend to have a lot of fun. I also do not put my characters lives into other peoples hands I play the game to have fun I play in groups that go in and take on dungeons in wild and zanny ways and its so much fun.

    I said it before and I say it again that word seems to sorely be missing from a lot of forum players vocabularies as they tout the way to play any class and the game. No thank you Id rather have fun
    Last edited by Kalari; 04-09-2013 at 04:35 PM. Reason: damn my spelling goes loopy when im in nerd rant
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