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  1. #1
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    Default Any recommendations for a ninja spy/assassin build?

    I’ve been thinking of making a monk/rogue, and it looks like these two might have some fun synergy. However, I’m wondering if trying for both could become too much of a split.

    I have VIP, all races, 32 pt build, 1st life and I normally solo. I'm thinking halfling or drow.

    Maybe a 6/13/1 (druid)?

    Any advice of a link to a build?

    Thanks in advance!
    Last edited by Kylric; 01-12-2013 at 12:00 PM.

  2. #2
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Adding 1 monk to rogue is extremely powerful. Stunning Fist lets you generate sneak attack and reduce incoming damage in a fracas, the speed of unarmed attacks balances your lost SA from capstone very neatly (especially with the continued power creep in DDO), that and full offhand Str gives you a leg up against the 100 fort unsneakables that are traditionally rogue bugaboos, and another feat is a lovely thing.

    Adding 1 rogue to monk is not as combat useful, but being able to disarm traps can be helpful both for completing quests and for XP.

    Deeper splits tend to cost you more than you gain in either direction.

    .

    Regarding race, it's really hard to go against human for rogues. A Damage Boost you can use simultaneously with your Haste Boost, yet another feat, no penalties to any of your relevant stats, Improved Recovery. Halfling has strong but extremely expensive enhancements, and in the end you get more from less expended via human, plus less Strength is not good. Drow has very poor enhancements and the stat bonuses are not very relevant to someone with 32 point builds.

    I like the 19 rog / 1 mnk the best, so here's the build I'd do...
    14 Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int (28 points)
    ...and then increase either Str or Int to 16 depending if you want +1 damage or +1 Assassinate DC (or split the difference). You want to get to 21 Dex for ISA, so however many level-ups you need keeping in mind your tome situation, and then the same as above for Str or Int (or split).

    Feats
    1: Stunning Fist and TWF and Toughness
    3: Precision
    6: Power Attack
    9: Improved TWF
    12: Improved Sunder
    15: IC: Bludgeon
    18: Greater TWF
    21: Improved Sneak Attack
    24: Any (Dodge? SF: UMD? Whatever you find you want.)

    Key Enhancements
    Assassin 3 and pre-reqs
    Human Versatility 4
    Haste Boost 4
    After that, as much Subtle Backstabbing and Improved Recovery (if UMD healing) as you can scratch out.

  3. #3
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    my rogue's past life was 13 rogue 7 monk. ninja I/assassin II. i had a BLAST. 13 rogue gave me improved evasion and opportunist, 7 monk gave me the next tier of heal amp and wholeness of body (sit down and med and recover your life). stunning fist is AMAZING on a rogue. let me say that again... stunning fist is FREAKING AMAZEBALLS on a rogue! all of a sudden you're now getting not only sneak attack damage on a mob, regardless if it has agro on you or not... you're also adding the 'helpless' multiplier on top of that. if you feel like it, you can even stun, hide, and assassinate, but more often than not the second i started piling on the sneak attack + helpless damage the mob was dead in a second anyway. no point taking the time to hide and go on assassinate timer. running around with a high AC, great dodge chance, perma-blur from items, and ninja spy shadow fade 25% incorp miss chance constantly made me very tough to kill. was always a spam of "miss, miss, miss, dodge, miss, incorporeal, miss, miss, dodge, HIT for x damage, miss, miss, dodge, incorporeal, miss. etc. was great. and with the feats i chose + dabbling in shadowdancer i bypassed at least 53% fort without even really trying hard... pooh pooh on constructs and undead. i crit and sneak attack em anyway! lol

    feats i can remember off the top of my head were full TWF chain, dodge (ninja req), toughness x2, precision (instead of power attack)


    i wouldn't add a level of druid unless you plan to run acrobat instead of assassin. the ram's might +2 str and damage size bonus and the +1 [W] from shillelagh is pretty potent if you were going to go in that direction. that's what my current life is, and i am enjoying this one just as much, just in a different way.
    Last edited by katz; 01-13-2013 at 05:17 PM.

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  4. #4
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    Thank you both.

    I'm looking more for a fun build (for those times my level 12 FvS is driving me crazy). I don't mind using hirlings and not playing on elite.

    Am I correct in thinking you can't use short sword and stunn, correct?

    For some reason I can't get into playing human; I do that every day of the week in RL.

  5. #5
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    you cannot use short swords and stunning fist, that is correct. if you have the stunning blow feat you can, but honestly i wouldn't bother. get a set of good short swords for mobs with DR /piercing, and if you can find em, a pair of sun blades for mobs with DR/slash, and the rest of the time just go to town with your fists.

    and i totally agree with you about the human thing. i'm a human IRL, so i very VERY rarely play a human in a game, no matter how optimal they are for the situation. my rogue was an elf (and for flavor took lesser dragonmark of shadow as one of my feats), but halfling or half elf would be great choices also

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  6. #6
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    So how do you get enough wisdom with one of these builds to make stunning fist work?

  7. #7
    Community Member voxson5's Avatar
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    If we look at a lv 20:

    10 base + 10 levels + 10 item + 5 exceptional (spare hand etc)
    That's already 35, still have stat modifiers and potential racial modifiers to put on top

    Personally I would start with ~14 wis:
    14+ 6 item = 20 (+5 modifier without really trying)

    It we grind for a while (and level up):
    +2/3/4 tome, + 2 (+8 item), +1 exceptional, +2 insight, +2 stance, +2 ship
    Now you're up to 33 wis, lets start at 15 or add in a lvl up point so it's now even at 34 (+12)

    47 DC, + 3 for a dwarf or WF = 50 (before any destiny enhancements)
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  8. #8
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    Stunning fist is so fliipn op compared to blow it's sickening.

    Basically you could start with a 12 or even 14 wis and still have a great stunning fist score. The reason being Stunning fist is raised by of course your wis mod, but it is also increased by half CHARACTER lv. After u9 stunning fist was just awesomesause.

    It was changed from using half monk to half character, as well as once stunned all mobs were considered helpless which automatically makes any and all SA dmg come to bear blow after blow. (This is why an unarmed 18 rog very GREATLY makes up for the loss of 2 levels.)

    So basically you have your wis mod which is easy enough to jack up without any level ups. You have the base of 10, plus another 10 from you being lv 20, as well as another 10 from stunning 10 (available on pretty much all great end game handwraps.) and another 5 from the epic spare hand, and even more still with ED cheap twists.

    So you take all of that, and then you also factor in that Improved sunder drops the resistance to it even if it doesn't land.

    It is extraordinarily easy to jack stunning fist way up.

    Now you glance over at stunning blow and you just get a 10 plus the str mod. It was only recently even given an absent minded thought as stunning 10 was finally made available on something other then a blunt weapon or as a precious component of an alch (which has of course been somewhat replaced with newer weapons)

    However even comparing the 2 is still a no contest as you can literally keep a monster stunned forever with stunning fist. The cool down is I believe twice as fast blow refreshing every 6 seconds. (Which is also what the stun is for)
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  9. #9
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    in my case, starting wisdom 12, +3 tome. +7 (bracers of the sun soul) +2 insightful (belt of the sun soul) +2 ship buff = 26 wisdom

    for a DC at 23rd (when i TRed) of 10 + half Character level (11) + Wisdom modifier (8) + Stunning wraps (10) + exceptional combat mastery from spare hand (5) = 44


    maybe not uber, but certainly good enough for alot of content.

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  10. #10
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    So basically it doesn't really work until you are high level. So why take the feat so early?

  11. #11
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    because lower level mobs require less DC to stun them. trust me, i made great use of stunning fist throughout my levels, and i took it at 2nd level.

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  12. #12
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    I only have a low level monk (5), and my experience is different. Even with a higher wisdom than what i think an assassin build would have, it fails pretty frequently on elite.

    I have a similar experience with my barbarian, who is level 20 and has never gotten any actual use out of the stunning blow feat just because the fail rate is so high. That's raged, frenzied, etc. and also using a stunning weapon. I'm guessing it's actually necessary to equip an exceptional tactics item to make these feats viable?

  13. #13
    Community Member voxson5's Avatar
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    Is your monk using stunning wraps?

    Screaming of stunning +4 could be craftable for lv 5 I think.

    Tbh, I just used devotion until 7 and then crafted holy of lesser vampirism & screaming of stunning to swap between.

    It's just like any thing else, you need to keep up with high tier gear for elite bb success (for the most part anyway)
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  14. #14
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    So how do you get enough wisdom with one of these builds to make stunning fist work?
    On top of voxson's list, up to +15 (effectively) from Improved Sunder. Almost nothing stunnable is going to live that long, but if it does you'll really really want to be able to stun it, so that works out pretty nicely.
    I only have a low level monk (5), and my experience is different. Even with a higher wisdom than what i think an assassin build would have, it fails pretty frequently on elite.

    I have a similar experience with my barbarian, who is level 20 and has never gotten any actual use out of the stunning blow feat just because the fail rate is so high. That's raged, frenzied, etc. and also using a stunning weapon. I'm guessing it's actually necessary to equip an exceptional tactics item to make these feats viable?
    Well, it depends on how you look at things. An exceptional tactics item will give you no more than +25% success. I would agree that 70% success rate is equal to "fails pretty frequently", but I would disagree that that means it isn't "viable". You may disagree with my disagreement.

    Also keep in mind that Stunning Fist gets +level/2 for free, which is worth +20 to the given stat. That alone is more than rage/frenzy/et al gives you.

  15. #15
    Community Member ~TROUBLEGIRL's Avatar
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    Question looking to do this build

    Im looking to make a first life rogue monk I like the sound of this build how would you do for the feats and the stats I have 32pt im looking for halfling or human
    i have so far str 14 dex 16 con 14 int 14

    im clueless when it comes to building builds

    thank you
    Troublegirl Khyber


    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    my rogue's past life was 13 rogue 7 monk. ninja I/assassin II. i had a BLAST. 13 rogue gave me improved evasion and opportunist, 7 monk gave me the next tier of heal amp and wholeness of body (sit down and med and recover your life). stunning fist is AMAZING on a rogue. let me say that again... stunning fist is FREAKING AMAZEBALLS on a rogue! all of a sudden you're now getting not only sneak attack damage on a mob, regardless if it has agro on you or not... you're also adding the 'helpless' multiplier on top of that. if you feel like it, you can even stun, hide, and assassinate, but more often than not the second i started piling on the sneak attack + helpless damage the mob was dead in a second anyway. no point taking the time to hide and go on assassinate timer. running around with a high AC, great dodge chance, perma-blur from items, and ninja spy shadow fade 25% incorp miss chance constantly made me very tough to kill. was always a spam of "miss, miss, miss, dodge, miss, incorporeal, miss, miss, dodge, HIT for x damage, miss, miss, dodge, incorporeal, miss. etc. was great. and with the feats i chose + dabbling in shadowdancer i bypassed at least 53% fort without even really trying hard... pooh pooh on constructs and undead. i crit and sneak attack em anyway! lol

    feats i can remember off the top of my head were full TWF chain, dodge (ninja req), toughness x2, precision (instead of power attack)


    i wouldn't add a level of druid unless you plan to run acrobat instead of assassin. the ram's might +2 str and damage size bonus and the +1 [W] from shillelagh is pretty potent if you were going to go in that direction. that's what my current life is, and i am enjoying this one just as much, just in a different way.

  16. #16
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    One thing to keep in mind is that the assassin PrE in this case is really about picking up the SA dice. As observed, to get reliable stunning fist DCs means increased WIS and this comes at the expense of some other stat. The result is that the tier 2 assassination DC is very weak and probably unreliable on the more difficult content.

    The character, then, must be looked at in the more common rogue mode of generating high DPS rather than the mode of an assassination focused build. Absolutely nothing wrong with that -- and frankly most players are looking for the DPS rather than the instant killing power of Assassin II.

  17. #17
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TROUBLEGIRL View Post
    str 14 dex 16 con 14 int 14
    Here is an example of the challenge I just posted about.

    The player obviously wants to do a little of everything but the result is going to be that they may end up doing nothing particularly well.

    STR is the go to stat for hit/damage. Yet, it is on the low end when built. Does the player then boost STR with each stat increase?

    DEX is the highest starting stat. This makes sense on a character with limited tomes because spending one stat increase qualifies the full TWF line -- something most will consider essential. But, does the player now go with all stat increases in DEX and opt for weapon finesse?

    WIS is the critical stat for stunning fist DCs. What content will the player want to run. We've seen suggestions on how to get to certain levels. But, what we haven't discussed is how reliable those will be on hard, elite or epic content. Without boosting WIS the DC will almost always be too low, defeating the purpose of the build.

    INT is the critical stat for just about everything else -- search, disable device, assassinate. But, like with WIS, unless it is boosted the DC on assassination will be too low to be reliable at higher difficulty levels.

    The concept is problematic from the start because it tries to do so many things. In the end, it risks doing none of them well.

    So, what to do?

    The answer is to pick one or two things and do them well -- let the others go. Which ones is a personal decision, but my concern would be that by trying to do everything the build ends up doing nothing.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by TROUBLEGIRL View Post
    Im looking to make a first life rogue monk I like the sound of this build how would you do for the feats and the stats I have 32pt im looking for halfling or human
    i have so far str 14 dex 16 con 14 int 14

    im clueless when it comes to building builds

    thank you
    Troublegirl Khyber
    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Here is an example of the challenge I just posted about.

    The player obviously wants to do a little of everything but the result is going to be that they may end up doing nothing particularly well.
    if there's one thing that bards and rogues do well, it's "master of everything"... and i know my bards and rogues.
    NOTE! i have never said it would be EASY

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    STR is the go to stat for hit/damage. Yet, it is on the low end when built. Does the player then boost STR with each stat increase?
    and therein lies the beauty of this build... traditional wisdom says "go whole hog str str str" but, while i don't advocate dumping it, you don't need to max it, either... the sneak attack damage will far more than make up for it, and precision not only bypasses fort, it ups your to-hit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    DEX is the highest starting stat. This makes sense on a character with limited tomes because spending one stat increase qualifies the full TWF line -- something most will consider essential. But, does the player now go with all stat increases in DEX and opt for weapon finesse?
    meh, i have a different suggestion. i'll get into that in a moment

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    WIS is the critical stat for stunning fist DCs. What content will the player want to run. We've seen suggestions on how to get to certain levels. But, what we haven't discussed is how reliable those will be on hard, elite or epic content. Without boosting WIS the DC will almost always be too low, defeating the purpose of the build.

    i knew my stunning fist DC was crucial to my success. therefor to make up for my comparatively low wisdom, i went out and purposely farmed cannith mats to make myself a spare hand for every level tier as i leveled up, and i made sure i also had the best wraps of +stunning for my level. with that, my rogue/monk was able to pretty consistently and reliably keep most mobs (that weren't immune somehow) stunned... even most orange names... after about 4th-6th level or so. said character also duoed with my husband's multi-TR, so ran elite BB streak clear to 18th level before we broke it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    INT is the critical stat for just about everything else -- search, disable device, assassinate. But, like with WIS, unless it is boosted the DC on assassination will be too low to be reliable at higher difficulty levels.

    i think i broke a 40DC after i got my eMidnight's Greetings... but that's neither here nor there. yes, i had trouble assassinating things in at level elites. i didn't care. as i said before, most trash mobs never lasted longer than a second or so at most once stunned with the amount of sneak attack damage. i never really saw a point to make an effort to assassinate till 22-23 or so when, at that point, i did have a semi-decent DC, and i was trying to build shadow charges.

    all that being said...



    halfling version.
    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.01
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    
    halfling roguemonk
    Level 20 Lawful Neutral Halfling Female
    (7 Monk \ 13 Rogue) 
    Hit Points: 276
    Spell Points: 0 
    BAB: 14\14\19\24
    Fortitude: 14
    Reflex: 18
    Will: 12
    
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             14                    16
    Dexterity            15                    17
    Constitution         14                    18
    Intelligence         14                    19
    Wisdom               12                    14
    Charisma              9                    11
    
    
    Tomes Used
    +2 Tomes all around
    Level 1 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    
    
    
    
    Level 2 (Monk)
    Feat: (Monk Bonus) Stunning Fist
    
    
    
    
    Level 3 (Monk)
    Feat: (Monk Bonus) Dodge
    Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    
    
    Level 4 (Monk)
    Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness
    
    
    
    
    Level 5 (Monk)
    
    
    
    
    Level 6 (Monk)
    Feat: (Selected) Precision
    
    
    
    
    Level 7 (Monk)
    Feat: (Monk Bonus) Mobility
    
    
    
    
    Level 8 (Rogue)
    
    
    
    
    Level 9 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    
    
    Level 10 (Rogue)
    
    
    
    
    Level 11 (Rogue)
    
    
    
    
    Level 12 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
    
    
    
    
    Level 13 (Rogue)
    
    
    
    
    Level 14 (Rogue)
    
    
    
    
    Level 15 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device
    
    
    
    
    Level 16 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
    
    
    
    
    Level 17 (Rogue)
    
    
    
    
    Level 18 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    
    
    Level 19 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Opportunist
    
    
    
    
    Level 20 (Monk)
    Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
    Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
    Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
    Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
    Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
    Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
    Enhancement: Halfling Cunning I
    Enhancement: Halfling Cunning II
    Enhancement: Halfling Guile I
    Enhancement: Halfling Guile II
    Enhancement: Halfling Luck (Reflex) I
    Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
    Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
    Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing III
    Enhancement: Static Charge
    Enhancement: Way of the Clever Monkey I
    Enhancement: Way of the Clever Monkey II
    Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I
    Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery II
    Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy I
    Enhancement: Adept of Wind
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
    Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking II
    Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking III
    Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I
    Enhancement: Rogue Assassin II
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
    Enhancement: Improved Hide I
    Enhancement: Improved Hide II
    Enhancement: Improved Jump I
    Enhancement: Improved Jump II
    Enhancement: Improved Move Silently I
    Enhancement: Improved Move Silently II
    Enhancement: Improved Tumble I
    Enhancement: Improved Tumble II
    Enhancement: Rogue Wand and Scroll Mastery I
    Enhancement: Rogue Wand and Scroll Mastery II
    Enhancement: Rogue Wand and Scroll Mastery III


    a few of the feats are somewhat flexible. throw another toughness or 2 in there instead of mobility and skill focus UMD. i had skill focus on my own rogue mostly because i got tired of swapping half my gear just to throw a heal scroll. might could throw halfling healing mark in there too...your preference. just keep in the necessary stuff: toughness (at least 1), TWF chain, dodge (prereq for ninja), stunning fist (because... awesome), and precision. the rest is gravy


    i've only put +2 tomes on this... to make it a bit easier (if you're having trouble pulling together the +2s, the absolute most vital ones are the dex and the wisdom)... but i will say this is not really an easy thing to pull off well. Therigar does have some legit concerns, and anyone wanting to run this has to work to overcome them. you need the best gear for your level or you're just deadweight. that means actively combing the AH every couple of levels for the best stunning wraps and the best search/spot/open lock/disable gear you can find... farming cannith challenges (not much of a farm... was pretty quick, but still) for a spare hand (bright side, spare hand doubles as a very handy nice OL/DD item) if you were lucky enough to have run cove, you hopefully have a spyglass, if not, pray cove comes back soon, and when it does, make one. or several. spyglasses are awesome.

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  19. #19
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    Adding 1 monk to rogue is extremely powerful. Stunning Fist lets you generate sneak attack and reduce incoming damage in a fracas, the speed of unarmed attacks balances your lost SA from capstone very neatly (especially with the continued power creep in DDO), that and full offhand Str gives you a leg up against the 100 fort unsneakables that are traditionally rogue bugaboos, and another feat is a lovely thing.
    My experience is that the increase in attack speed is negligible with only a small splash. AFAIK the speed increases gradually as a monk levels, reaching an increase of ~12% by L20. Assuming something simple like a 3% increase at L1 and an additional 1% increase every 2 levels this suggests that a minor splash is not worthwhile if based on attack speed.

    When the capstone is an additional 4d6 SA damage it might not be worth it at all.

  20. #20
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    It is BAB-dependent, but BAB is BAB is BAB. If you test it out on a 3/1 vs. a 4, you won't see much, but a 19/1 vs. a 20 and you'll see.

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