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  1. #21
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TehBeWop View Post
    I was considering using a bastard sword with two handed feats for melee, because it procs the glancing blows, however I figured just full two weapon would be better, especially with deadly weapons.
    I thought there was more synergies between d.axe+RA than TWF on an artificer, but I don't actually know what's better DPS; and as you said it makes this build more MAD if you have to worry about STR on top of DEX,INT,and CON. Another possibility I thought of was to go for PA+CL+GC instead of THF chain, which lowers the base STR requirement from 17 (ITHF&GTHF) to 13 (PA) - much easier to hit, particularly on a halfling. Plus since the idea is to do a lot of kiting thru Turret+BB, wouldn't be getting glancing blows most of the time anyway; so it wouldn't matter what weapon you used. So on a 34-pt halfling you could start w/11/18/14/17/8/8; +2 STR tome for PA, +3 DEX tome for Combat Archery; lvl-ups into INT. So on a pure arty (14 feats total) you'd be looking at, say, Toughness, Precision, PA/CL/GC, PBS, Rapid Shot, Prec Shot, IPS, IC:Slash & Ranged, Combat Archery, w/2 left for metamagics (e.g., Max+SF:Evo).

  2. #22
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Test build:
    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 20 True Neutral Halfling Female
    (20 Artificer) 
    Hit Points: 252
    Spell Points: 1157 
    BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
    Fortitude: 10
    Reflex: 12
    Will: 13
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (34 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             11                    13
    Dexterity            18                    21
    Constitution         14                    16
    Intelligence         17                    27
    Wisdom                8                    10
    Charisma              8                    10
    
    Tomes Used
    +2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
    +3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11
    
    Level 1 (Artificer)
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Artificer
    Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot
    
    
    Level 2 (Artificer)
    
    
    Level 3 (Artificer)
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    
    
    Level 4 (Artificer)
    Ability Raise: INT
    Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Precise Shot
    
    
    Level 5 (Artificer)
    
    
    Level 6 (Artificer)
    Feat: (Selected) Precision
    
    
    Level 7 (Artificer)
    
    
    Level 8 (Artificer)
    Ability Raise: INT
    Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Maximize Spell
    
    
    Level 9 (Artificer)
    Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
    
    
    Level 10 (Artificer)
    
    
    Level 11 (Artificer)
    
    
    Level 12 (Artificer)
    Ability Raise: INT
    Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 13 (Artificer)
    
    
    Level 14 (Artificer)
    
    
    Level 15 (Artificer)
    Feat: (Selected) Cleave
    
    
    Level 16 (Artificer)
    Ability Raise: INT
    Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Improved Precise Shot
    
    
    Level 17 (Artificer)
    
    
    Level 18 (Artificer)
    Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave
    
    
    Level 19 (Artificer)
    
    
    Level 20 (Artificer)
    Ability Raise: INT
    Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Rapid Shot
    Enhancement: Artificer Damage Boost I
    Enhancement: Artificer Damage Boost II
    Enhancement: Artificer Crossbow Attack I
    Enhancement: Artificer Crossbow Damage I
    Enhancement: Artificer Crossbow Damage II
    Enhancement: Artificer Improved Rune Arm Use I
    Enhancement: Artificer Improved Rune Arm Use II
    Enhancement: Artificer Improved Rune Arm Use III
    Enhancement: Artificer Improved Rune Arm Use IV
    Enhancement: Artificer Battle Engineer I
    Enhancement: Artificer Rune Arm Overcharge I
    Enhancement: Artificer Rune Arm Overcharge II
    Enhancement: Arcane Empowerment
    Enhancement: Halfling Cunning I
    Enhancement: Halfling Cunning II
    Enhancement: Halfling Guile I
    Enhancement: Halfling Guile II
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    Enhancement: Kinetic Spellcasting I
    Enhancement: Kinetic Spellcasting II
    Enhancement: Kinetic Spellcasting III
    Enhancement: Kinetic Spellcasting IV
    Enhancement: Kinetic Spellcasting V
    Enhancement: Kinetic Spellcasting VI
    Enhancement: Deadly Kinetics I
    Enhancement: Deadly Kinetics II
    Enhancement: Deadly Kinetics III
    Enhancement: Deadly Kinetics IV
    Enhancement: Deadly Kinetics V
    Enhancement: Force Manipulation I
    Enhancement: Force Manipulation II
    Enhancement: Force Manipulation III
    Enhancement: Force Manipulation IV
    Enhancement: Force Manipulation V
    Enhancement: Force Manipulation VI
    Enhancement: Force Manipulation VII
    Enhancement: Artificer Intelligence I
    Enhancement: Artificer Intelligence II
    Enhancement: Artificer Intelligence III
    Enhancement: Artificer Wand and Scroll Mastery I
    Enhancement: Artificer Wand and Scroll Mastery II
    Enhancement: Artificer Wand and Scroll Mastery III
    Enhancement: Artificer Wand and Scroll Mastery IV

  3. #23
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    Did you toss rune arm shots in when you did the comparisons? Based on your enhances and rune arm that can be a LOT of damage, though its more spike type, not constant like swinging a sword.

  4. #24
    Community Member Maelodic's Avatar
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    Okay, here we go.

    After some more testing I've found quite a few discoveries:

    1. Even as a melee Artificer, you're still moving quite a bit more than regular melees.
    2. Most of the damage you do as a melee comes from your rune arm, not the glancing blows.
    3. The weapon isn't nearly as important as what the weapon does.
    4. THF Feats are deceptively not as important as you'd come to imagine. You take a damage hit, but from what you can get from other feats, they're not even close to nearly as important.


    TWF Artificer is out. It's just not synergistic at all with anything the artificer does.

    The blue bar, as a melee, needs to be primarily damage and buffs. Construct essence inhibits this and allows you to blow all of your bar on self healing rather than just playing smarter. If you find yourself taking too much damage and you can't heal yourself, pull out the darn crossbow and suck it up.

    It really doesn't matter if it's a bastard sword or not.

    However, the fang, with dragonmarks, is much better than just about everything out there, however the assumption you need THF feats to use it effectly is incorrect, especially with cleave/greater cleave.
    However, you do need insightful reflexes if you're going to dump dex, which actually makes sense if you're primarily using melee weapons.

    So, with feats and everything:
    1. Insightful Reflexes
    3. Least Mark
    4(b). Point Blank Shot
    6. Cleave
    8(b). Spell Focus: Evocation
    9. Greater Cleave
    12. Lesser Mark
    12(b). Imp crit: Ranged
    15. Greater Spell Focus: Evocation
    16(b). Maximize
    18. Greater Mark
    20(b). Empower

    Base:
    14 STR
    10 DEX
    15 CON
    18 INT


    If you don't want to dump dex, and are fine using rapiers, switch out insightful reflexes with weapon finesse.
    Using chimera's crown will help with squishyness. Using the fang endgame is still very viable.
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  5. #25
    Community Member Loriac's Avatar
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    Spell focus: evoc is not a bonus artificer feat; I'd suggest quicken, rapid shot, or precise shot instead (not sure if quicken benefits the SLA heals or if they're already uninterruptible). My preference would be precise shot of the three listed (assuming quicken doesn't benefit SLAs) - as it works now, its quite usable and gives a very nice boost to single target damage. It also allows you to snipe specific targets when using your xbow, which could be quite beneficial.

    You do still have the 2 epic level feats available (which obviously aren't listed in your build) so you could take GSF and ESF evoc in those slots I suppose.

  6. #26
    Community Member Maelodic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loriac View Post
    Spell focus: evoc is not a bonus artificer feat; I'd suggest quicken, rapid shot, or precise shot instead (not sure if quicken benefits the SLA heals or if they're already uninterruptible). My preference would be precise shot of the three listed (assuming quicken doesn't benefit SLAs) - as it works now, its quite usable and gives a very nice boost to single target damage. It also allows you to snipe specific targets when using your xbow, which could be quite beneficial.

    You do still have the 2 epic level feats available (which obviously aren't listed in your build) so you could take GSF and ESF evoc in those slots I suppose.
    That would work.

    Woo. Got it figured out.
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    Praise Dog, and Maelodic, his prophet.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loriac View Post
    Spell focus: evoc is not a bonus artificer feat ...
    Spell focus: Evocation is bonus artificer feat, greater spell focus is not.

  8. #28
    Community Member Loriac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilrede View Post
    Spell focus: Evocation is bonus artificer feat, greater spell focus is not.
    No it isn't.

    Metamagic feats are in the bonus list, but spell focus feats are not.
    Last edited by Loriac; 01-14-2013 at 07:31 AM.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilrede View Post
    Spell focus: Evocation is bonus artificer feat, greater spell focus is not.
    maybe thinking of wizard, whose bonus feats include meta magic + spell focus feats (but not greater spell focus).

    artificers just get meta magic options

  10. #30
    Community Member FooWonk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TehBeWop View Post
    So, with feats and everything:
    1. Insightful Reflexes
    3. Least Mark
    4(b). Point Blank Shot
    6. Cleave
    8(b). Spell Focus: Evocation
    9. Greater Cleave
    12. Lesser Mark
    12(b). Imp crit: Ranged
    15. Greater Spell Focus: Evocation
    16(b). Maximize
    18. Greater Mark
    20(b). Empower
    On a feat starved 2-handed melee build,
    the THF line isn't worth it if you can't stand still.

    The alternative is the cleave feats.
    You're missing power attack.

    The -4 to-hit will be very painful,
    if you don't already have the chimera's fang
    ready by level 20.

    Consider, exotic proficiency until you have the fang.

    You'll not fit all the feats you'll need
    in order to be hybrid/melee
    without splashing 2 fighter or monk.

    I'd suggest the monk splash, it's the route I went
    with my bastardificer.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loriac View Post
    No it isn't.

    Metamagic feats are in the bonus list, but spell focus feats are not.
    Yes, you are right, my bad. I was confused with character planner, where spell focus is as bonus feat.

    Now i have to rebuild my melee artificer ... I am currently lvl 10, but i wanted take spell focus: evo as lvl 16 bonus feat. If i cant take spell focus as bonus feat, i am missing one "normal" feat in my build and have one "not needed" bonus feat. I am thinking about replacing THF line (3 feats) for cleave + great cleave (without OC) and others will be the same. But i am not sure about that, because i have not played THF focused character ...

  12. #32
    Community Member Maelodic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FooWonk View Post
    On a feat starved 2-handed melee build,
    the THF line isn't worth it if you can't stand still.

    The alternative is the cleave feats.
    You're missing power attack.

    The -4 to-hit will be very painful,
    if you don't already have the chimera's fang
    ready by level 20.

    Consider, exotic proficiency until you have the fang.

    You'll not fit all the feats you'll need
    in order to be hybrid/melee
    without splashing 2 fighter or monk.

    I'd suggest the monk splash, it's the route I went
    with my bastardificer.
    Revised accordingly:
    STR: 14
    DEX: 15
    CON: 14
    INT: 17
    (-1 int and -1 con isn't the end of the world, if it saves from having to take insightful reflexes. It also saves the insightful strikes spell from having to take up a spell slot when you switch to ranged.)

    Feats:
    1: Least Dragonmark of Healing
    2M: Toughness
    3: Spell Focus: Evocation
    4M: Power Attack
    6: Cleave
    6A: Maximize
    9: Lesser Dragonmark of Healing
    10A: Point Blank Shot
    12: Great Cleave
    14A: Imp. Crit Ranged
    15: Greater Spell Focus: Evocation
    18: Greater Dragonmark of Healing
    18A: Quicken Spell

    Quicken makes blade barriers and flame turrets a lot easier to work with, I'll take it over anything else.

    Chimera's Breath is ML:5 item that grants Bastard Sword Proficiency. It's charge tier III, so it's more than adequate for use until 20.

    When I cap my arti, I'll be testing to see how much I love the capstone, and how much it's worth it to trade it for evasion and two feats. I can also test out this build for the most part with the free character respec you get =P



    Updated main post.

    Check it out, final build looks really nice.
    Last edited by TehBeWop; 01-23-2013 at 07:22 AM.
    ~Sarlona~ - Proud Member of The Unrepentant
    Quote Originally Posted by Scraap View Post
    Praise Dog, and Maelodic, his prophet.

  13. #33
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    Whats the point of PBS? Presumably, if you're within 15m, you're probably going to want to use your melee weapon, right? Why not take Precise Shot instead, so you can use your xbow to, for example, take out casters or healers with EF while the melee mobs are coming into range?

    You get Archers Focus then, too, which will help with any situation where you want to stay in ranged (say, taking out ranged mobs you cant reach, or boss fights where you dont want to be in melee range if you're not tanking to avoid AOEs) with a 30% damage boost.

  14. #34
    Community Member Maelodic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Whats the point of PBS? Presumably, if you're within 15m, you're probably going to want to use your melee weapon, right? Why not take Precise Shot instead, so you can use your xbow to, for example, take out casters or healers with EF while the melee mobs are coming into range?

    You get Archers Focus then, too, which will help with any situation where you want to stay in ranged (say, taking out ranged mobs you cant reach, or boss fights where you don't want to be in melee range if you're not tanking to avoid AOEs) with a 30% damage boost.
    If melee mobs are coming into range, I'm charging my run arm, dropping a turret, and preparing to melt them all up. Casters are easy to take care of when all their minions die in the matter of two seconds.

    PBS considerably better when combined with Endless Fusillade, which is great for taking out bosses rather quickly. It's actually also what grants you the archer's focus, not precise shot.

    Melee=Better for trash.
    Spamming Endless Fusillade when a red name shows up at point blank range will melt it rather quickly.
    ~Sarlona~ - Proud Member of The Unrepentant
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    Praise Dog, and Maelodic, his prophet.

  15. #35
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TehBeWop View Post
    PBS considerably better when combined with Endless Fusillade, which is great for taking out bosses rather quickly. It's actually also what grants you the archer's focus, not precise shot.
    No, it's not. However, PBS is a pre-req for Precise Shot, so you still want it anyway.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    No, it's not. However, PBS is a pre-req for Precise Shot, so you still want it anyway.
    Ah that'd be the reason why PBS, then...thanks

    Also, my mistake, I thought this was a melee Arti with repeaters as a backup. If its more of a ranged Arti with melee for trash cleanup, it makes me wonder if Great Cleave is more useful than Precise Shot. A 3[W] wide-angle AOE for clearing trash, or a 30% bonus to damage for taking out bosses and other hard targets? Which will you actually be doing more of? Which solves the bigger problem?
    Last edited by droid327; 01-23-2013 at 04:35 PM.

  17. #37
    Community Member Maelodic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Ah that'd be the reason why PBS, then...thanks

    Also, my mistake, I thought this was a melee Arti with repeaters as a backup. If its more of a ranged Arti with melee for trash cleanup, it makes me wonder if Great Cleave is more useful than Precise Shot. A 3[W] wide-angle AOE for clearing trash, or a 30% bonus to damage for taking out bosses and other hard targets? Which will you actually be doing more of? Which solves the bigger problem?
    It's meant to do everything, and do it pretty dang good. Both the melee and the range are fantastic. Zero favored the blade, and so do I, but there's something satisfying about spamming that attack button while endless is up.

    It's meant to do both. It's feat starved, like a lot. Most of your damage is spell damage/rune arm damage anyway, so it doesn't really make a difference either way to be honest.

    Great Cleave with Deadly Weapons is nasty.

    Also, if you're being ranged, you rarely are able to get that focus up to anything more than 10%

    Regardless, if you want to play a varient of the build, do so. It isn't meant to be solid. I know what I prefer personally.
    Last edited by TehBeWop; 01-24-2013 at 12:27 AM.
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