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  1. #1
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Question DPS lost by a "max cleaving spammer" dropping THF feats?

    Question: How much DPS, against single targets & multiple targets, would a "max cleaving spammer" (with Divine Sacrifices mixed in if available) lose by dropping the THF feat line?

    By "max cleaving spammer" I mean someone spamming Lay Waste, Momentum Swing, Great Cleave, & Cleave with Divine Sacrifices (if available) as often as possible...

    By way of background I am trying to rationalize THF feats and I am essentially trying to better understand how "active combat" animations (cleaves, Momentum Swings, Lay Wastes, Divine Sacrifices, etc) interact with "passive combat" animations (attack sequence, & the THF feat line) and whether the active combat interrupts the attack sequence chain & make the THF feats less valuable... I originally got these questions when considering feats on a Paladin or Battle Cleric...

    If I am spamming Lay Waste, Momentum Swing, Great Cleave, & Cleave (with Divine Sacrifice if available) as often as possible, how much of a standard attack sequence do I actually get to even benefit from the THF line?

    I got these questions after reading in the DDO wiki that THF feats are mainly for "passive combat" Glancing Blows & you get Glancing Blow attacks automatically against all enemies in a wide arc in front of your character on the first and fourth swing (& third swing if you have gTHF) of your attack sequence provided you are stationary.

    The wiki indicates that Cleave also produces Glancing Blows but doesn't mention Glancing Blows on Great Cleave nor Lay Waste nor Momentum Swing... That leaves me to deduce that the THF feats will help your Cleaves some but maybe not the others...
    Last edited by Nodoze; 01-11-2013 at 11:45 AM. Reason: tried to clarify passive vs active better...

  2. #2
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    I did some testing on a 21 Barbarian with all THF feats & the Supreme Cleave, Great Cleave, & Cleave cool-downs (running FotW not Legendary Dred and not enough twists to try Law Waste & Momentum Swing yet). It looks like if you spread your cleaves out you can pretty much limit the passive attack sequence to only the first two Attack Sequence (AS) animations by timing in a rhythm as follows: Supreme Cleave, AS 1 (gb), AS 2, Cleave(gb), AS 1 (gb), AS 2, Supreme Cleave, AS 1 (gb), AS 2, Great Cleave, AS 1 (gb), AS 2, ...repeat in a rhythm...

    If you spam with no rhythm the 123 keys mapped to Supreme, Great, & Cleave you get more time with all cool downs circulating and you can sometimes get a full attack animation (AS1gb,AS2,AS3gb,AS4gb) in... It does seem to bug when I hit them all as fast as I can and some times I get the Supreme Cleave damage with no animation (not sure if it is doing damage or not to the dummy)...

    Edit: It appears that if you just spam Supreme Cleave many times the second and subsequent animations don't fire but the damage is still done to yourself and the target. Both Cleave & Great Cleave also appears to do it if you only fire one of those in sequence with no other attacks but you don't see it because the Cleave cool-downs are much larger than Supreme Cleave's cool-down.
    Last edited by Nodoze; 01-11-2013 at 12:46 PM. Reason: Further testing around animations not fireing but still doing damage...

  3. #3
    The Hatchery Rawrargh's Avatar
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    hitting great cleave and supreme cleave almost simultanously will cause both to go off in a single animation, both dealing damage, both recieving glancing blows. It's a nice 4-500 damage burst (if non of the attacks crits).

    I ussually use it to quickly deal with a caster along with adrenaline when running fotw or right after popping an action boost.
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  4. #4
    Community Member Zerkul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodoze View Post
    I did some testing on a 21 Barbarian with all THF feats & the Supreme Cleave, Great Cleave, & Cleave cool-downs (running FotW not Legendary Dred and not enough twists to try Law Waste & Momentum Swing yet). It looks like if you spread your cleaves out you can pretty much limit the passive attack sequence to only the first two Attack Sequence (AS) animations by timing in a rhythm as follows: Supreme Cleave, AS 1 (gb), AS 2, Cleave(gb), AS 1 (gb), AS 2, Supreme Cleave, AS 1 (gb), AS 2, Great Cleave, AS 1 (gb), AS 2, ...repeat in a rhythm...

    If you spam with no rhythm the 123 keys mapped to Supreme, Great, & Cleave you get more time with all cool downs circulating and you can sometimes get a full attack animation (AS1gb,AS2,AS3gb,AS4gb) in... It does seem to bug when I hit them all as fast as I can and some times I get the Supreme Cleave damage with no animation (not sure if it is doing damage or not to the dummy)...

    Edit: It appears that if you just spam Supreme Cleave many times the second and subsequent animations don't fire but the damage is still done to yourself and the target. Both Cleave & Great Cleave also appears to do it if you only fire one of those in sequence with no other attacks but you don't see it because the Cleave cool-downs are much larger than Supreme Cleave's cool-down.
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  5. #5
    Community Member FooWonk's Avatar
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    Glancing blow attacks proc on all cleave attacks with 2-handed weapons.

    If your cleave attack hits, a separate attack (with -5 to-hit) is
    made for glancing blows.

    If this attack hits, the damage dealt starts off at a base of 20% of regular hit.
    Each 2-handed fighting feat increases the damage by 10%, to a max of 30%.

    The THF line is worth +28.5% of base damage to a cleave spammer.

    THF lines weapon effects increase vary too much to put a specific number on.
    Glancing blows will proc effects less to not at all if you don't have THF feats.

  6. #6
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FooWonk View Post
    Glancing blow attacks proc on all cleave attacks with 2-handed weapons.

    If your cleave attack hits, a separate attack (with -5 to-hit) is
    made for glancing blows.

    If this attack hits, the damage dealt starts off at a base of 20% of regular hit.
    Each 2-handed fighting feat increases the damage by 10%, to a max of 30%.

    The THF line is worth +28.5% of base damage to a cleave spammer.

    THF lines weapon effects increase vary too much to put a specific number on.
    Glancing blows will proc effects less to not at all if you don't have THF feats.
    This.

    Glancing blow damage feels significant when cleaving, even without any THF feats. Add in the feats and the cleaves hit for a lot more.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    This.

    Glancing blow damage feels significant when cleaving, even without any THF feats. Add in the feats and the cleaves hit for a lot more.
    Or to provide a generic formula, by not having THF you're losing 30% of base damage/swing to every target in range (whether cleaving or not). So, as a random example with easy #s, if you are swinging for 50 base damage on avg (I know that's very low, I wanted it to be) then you're losing 15 damage to every target in range on a normal swing, about 17 on a cleave, and about 19 on a great cleave because those feats actually increase base damage. Crits do not affect glancing blows, but I believe adrenaline, lay waste, momentum swing do. If your base damage/swing is more like 100, then double those example #s. And of course if you make a single target attack in your sequence while fighting 5 guys, you're doing 100 + 5*20 = 200 instead of 100 + 5*50 = 350. None of this counts the proc effects you might lose also. Bottom line, you're losing A LOT of damage/swing by not having the THF line.

  8. #8
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inouk View Post
    Or to provide a generic formula, by not having THF you're losing 30% of base damage/swing to every target in range (whether cleaving or not). So, as a random example with easy #s, if you are swinging for 50 base damage on avg (I know that's very low, I wanted it to be) then you're losing 15 damage to every target in range on a normal swing, about 17 on a cleave, and about 19 on a great cleave because those feats actually increase base damage. Crits do not affect glancing blows, but I believe adrenaline, lay waste, momentum swing do. If your base damage/swing is more like 100, then double those example #s. And of course if you make a single target attack in your sequence while fighting 5 guys, you're doing 100 + 5*20 = 200 instead of 100 + 5*50 = 350. None of this counts the proc effects you might lose also. Bottom line, you're losing A LOT of damage/swing by not having the THF line.
    Not every attack procs glancing blows though.

    100% of cleave attacks do, and 50-75% of regular swings depending upon the number of THF feats you have.
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  9. #9
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Thanks for the great info everyone. Very helpful as I didn't understand that the THF feats helped all the cleaves including Momentum Swing & Lay Waste with them all generating Glancing Blows (will try to update ddowiki to reflect that).

    On our Paladin build I am going to try to fit in both the full Cleave/OC line and the THF line. Have to give up something (un-interruptable SP based self healing, extend for quality of life, tankish feats, or ...) & now thinking of splashing 2 fighter levels to fit in the THF feats...

    On the Battle Cleric build it is also tight but may also splash 2 levels of Fighter for the feats.

    In both cases I think priority-wise I want both Cleaves first for Momentum Swing/Lay Waste and then fit in as much of the THF line as possible (preferably all if maximizing DPS) without sacrificing non-negotiables (healing on the cleric & pre-reqs for the Paladin).

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodoze View Post
    On the Battle Cleric build it is also tight but may also splash 2 levels of Fighter for the feats.
    On a Battle Cleric build you can also splash

    WIZ1 for CLR17/WIZ1/FTR2

    I actually do not take the FTR levels till 19 and 20 because the damage/heal output by spells and bursts and heals/cures with metas is really a better deal early. Now till around lvl 7+ cures are too expensive in sp with any metas on mostly. Better to stack your cures with no metas on to heal someone except an emergency cure for yourself to go from almost dead to full, so you can cure others instead of just keeping up with your own damage.



    The reason you need Maximize, Empower early is for Divine Punishment. Your best weapon against bosses in the game even for a Melee Cleric IMHO.

    The reason you need Maximize, Empower and Empower heal early is for the best low level mass heal/cure in the game being your radiant burst.



    It does not add to the cost of the Radiant Burst with them all on. And until you get your aura it is probably the only reason other melees can accept you being next to them swinging at the same time. Especially newbie pugs who think you should just hang back like a healbot hireling.

    And even a Melee Cleric should not always melee. It still depends on the group. If you have a lot of melees in the group you should really hang back (except for putting out a blade barrier), but Divine Punishment is still great to use against bosses if you do. If there are too many divines and not enough casters Divine Punishment in the boss fight is a must, and if there are less melees then, oh yeah!, swing away.

    The Wiz1 allows you to take all the meta for Radiant bursts by lvl7. And you can still fit in Power Attack early. Taking CLR1 at level 1 is more flexiblity in any Divine Build, so take the WIZ1 at level 2.

    The WIZ1 gives you Master's Touch for martial proficiency and Force Manipulation 1 for +20% to blade barriers, and some wand/scroll use and increase in SP due to INTEL + items. This is a better deal for low to mid levels. You really don't need all that melee stuff till high level as a Melee Cleric. Only downside is you can't dump INT early. So take a 9 INT unless you start at lvl1 then it depends. +1 INT tomes are cheap at Auction. You need an 11 INT for lvl1 WIZ spell Master's Touch for Proficiency, so you can leave Power Attack on at low levels. Only melee feats I think a Divine splash really needs till high level are Power Attack (2hd) and Improved Critical. Sub only one TWF for Power Attack if you go TWF. Many Divine two weapon builds only take the first feat in the line especially pure divines. Many TWF builds still use 2hd till mid lvl.

    Get Divine Power items ASAP to click too. I like these much better than using the spell most of the time.

    Now you might want to go FTR1 at level 2 if you do not want to caster Master's touch on one or two weapons after you rest every time, but for me the benefit of WIZ1 instead is well worth that.

    I went Half Orc, but if you go Human take Cleave after you get those base metas above because using Cleave with a Paralyzer weapon on mobs and trash saved me casting blade barrier on many an occasion.

    IMHO - Two handed fighting Cleric:

    1 Toughness (human take Empower Healing)
    WIZ1 Maximize
    3 Power Attack
    6 Empower Heal (Human take at lvl1, then Empower here)
    9 Empower (human take quicken)
    12 Improved Critical Slash
    15 quicken (human take Cleave)
    18 Cleave (human take Great Cleave)
    F19 Great Cleave (human take THF)
    F20 THF
    21 Overwhelming Critical (requires Power Attack, Cleave and Great Cleave)
    24 ITHF (GTHF Human)

    I did a lot of reading on the Overwhelming critical, cleave stacking vs. two handed line. There was a lot of arguing and numbers on the forums, so I went on my sons barb with his cleaves and THF.



    ******The cleaves with weapon effects and critical hits to all the mobs around me was the selling point.******


    It was a lot of fun with my paralyzer up till epic. The paralyzer is not as good on epic mobs, but all the cleaves and resetting momentum swing and lay waste is rocking the mobs senseless with critical hits all around me. Now I know against a single boss stacking the cleaves is less effective than GTHF non human, but it saves mana against mobs for later use in boss fights to stack the deck with Divine Punishment.


    BTW, Battle cleric is sort of vague because it can also mean casting offensive but usually not crowd control spec'd.
    Got it with the FTR mention and being posted under Melee forum
    Last edited by firemedium_jt; 01-31-2013 at 08:03 PM.
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  11. #11
    Community Member Loriac's Avatar
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    Ok so I'm confused by how cleave and THF interact.

    Suppose that you are facing 3 mobs and they are tightly clustered, so that your cleave will hit all 3 mobs. In this situation, cleave is giving you an attack vs. all three mobs at full damage and effects.

    Does cleave also trigger glancing blows per hit? So in other words, against mob 1, I get the full attack and proc glancing blows vs. mobs 2 and 3. Against mob 2 I get full attack plus glancing blows vs. 1 and 3. And same for mob 3? In other words, my damage goes up with the number of mobs as each additional mob procs a separate chain of glancing blows.

    Or do I only get either a full attack or a glancing blow vs. a given mob? So to expand the example, I'm cleaving into a group of 5 mobs, only 3 of which are in the cleave arc. I get full attack vs. them and glancing blows vs. the other 2? Or do I get full attacks on the 3 mobs in the arc plus 3 sets of glancing blows against all 5 mobs?



    For comparison, if I'm looking at a TWF cleave, then that will only damage the mobs in the cleave arc, with no glancing blows. I could see that if you proc glancing blows on top of the full attack, then THF cleaving is going to do much more damage to groups of mobs.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loriac View Post
    Ok so I'm confused by how cleave and THF interact.

    Suppose that you are facing 3 mobs and they are tightly clustered, so that your cleave will hit all 3 mobs. In this situation, cleave is giving you an attack vs. all three mobs at full damage and effects.

    Does cleave also trigger glancing blows per hit? So in other words, against mob 1, I get the full attack and proc glancing blows vs. mobs 2 and 3. Against mob 2 I get full attack plus glancing blows vs. 1 and 3. And same for mob 3? In other words, my damage goes up with the number of mobs as each additional mob procs a separate chain of glancing blows.

    Or do I only get either a full attack or a glancing blow vs. a given mob? So to expand the example, I'm cleaving into a group of 5 mobs, only 3 of which are in the cleave arc. I get full attack vs. them and glancing blows vs. the other 2? Or do I get full attacks on the 3 mobs in the arc plus 3 sets of glancing blows against all 5 mobs?

    For comparison, if I'm looking at a TWF cleave, then that will only damage the mobs in the cleave arc, with no glancing blows. I could see that if you proc glancing blows on top of the full attack, then THF cleaving is going to do much more damage to groups of mobs.

    You will get 1 full attack and 1 glancing blow per target (sadly you won't get # of targets glancing blows/target) for mobs in your arc, and 1 glancing blow on each mob not in arc but in range of glancing blows). TWF cleave IMO is broken, as it gives neither glancing blows (even with a d-axe or b-sword) nor off hand attack and should get one or the other. Even so, cleave and great cleave are powerful for a TWF and will increase DPS when fighting more than 1 mob.

  13. #13
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    So I decided on Overwhelming Critical instead of GTHF on my Half Orc Melee Divine. Some might say Empower is not worth it and to take GTHF. I just can't part with Empower cause I just love Divine Punishment DOT. More flexiblity because I always stack my DP DOT in boss fights. Melee is situational on a Melee Divine in Boss fights depending on the party make up. Most of the time I can always use Divine Punishment.

    So for now my question is for this feat line up:

    IMHO - Two handed fighting Cleric:

    1 Toughness (human take Empower Healing)
    WIZ1 Maximize
    3 Power Attack
    6 Empower Heal (Human take at lvl1, then Empower here)
    9 Empower (human take quicken)
    12 Improved Critical Slash
    15 quicken (human take Cleave)
    18 Cleave (human take Great Cleave)
    F19 Great Cleave (human take THF)
    F20 THF
    21 Overwhelming Critical (requires Power Attack, Cleave and Great Cleave)
    24 ITHF (GTHF Human)


    Would Human GTHF be better than Half Orc without GTHF?


    Do you guys think that GTHF is better than Overwhelming Critical?
    Now that I am using an EAGA instead of a Falchion and getting my critical multiplier up with lengendary dreadnought? 3x vs. 2x is a lot, but 4x vs. 3x is less of a jump percentage wise but not sure damage wise? 6x vx. 5x with Headman's Chop is less of a reason for OC and more a reason for GTHF?

    And now I see guys taking Furry of the Wild and just twisting Momentum Swing and maybe Lay Waste?


    I pretty much used a Paralyzer and Falchion types till epic and now have the EAGA. Will a ___ burst or Holy Burst of ___ bloodletting with a Greataxe or Falchion be better for non DR mobs?
    Last edited by firemedium_jt; 01-31-2013 at 08:18 PM.
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  14. #14
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firemedium_jt View Post
    So I decided on Overwhelming Critical instead of GTHF on my Half Orc Melee Divine. Some might say Empower is not worth it and to take GTHF. ...

    So for now my question is for this feat line up:

    IMHO - Two handed fighting Cleric:

    1 Toughness (human take Empower Healing)
    WIZ1 Maximize
    3 Power Attack
    6 Empower Heal (Human take at lvl1, then Empower here)
    9 Empower (human take quicken)
    12 Improved Critical Slash
    15 quicken (human take Cleave)
    18 Cleave (human take Great Cleave)
    F19 Great Cleave (human take THF)
    F20 THF
    21 Overwhelming Critical (requires Power Attack, Cleave and Great Cleave)
    24 ITHF (GTHF Human)


    Would Human GTHF be better than Half Orc without GTHF?


    Do you guys think that GTHF is better than Overwhelming Critical?

    Now that I am using an EAGA instead of a Falchion and getting my critical multiplier up with lengendary dreadnought? 3x vs. 2x is a lot, but 4x vs. 3x is less of a jump percentage wise but not sure damage wise? 6x vx. 5x with Headman's Chop is less of a reason for OC and more a reason for GTHF?

    And now I see guys taking Furry of the Wild and just twisting Momentum Swing and maybe Lay Waste?


    I pretty much used a Paralyzer and Falchion types till epic and now have the EAGA. Will a ___ burst or Holy Burst of ___ bloodletting with a Greataxe or Falchion be better for non DR mobs?
    I am interested in folk's feed back on this as well.

    JT,

    Our static party currently has a H-Orc 20 Barbarian THFer going Fury of the Wild... Even though he hasn't quite maxed out FotW yet and only has a single twist for Momentum Swing I can say without a doubt that Momentum Swing is already awesome with FotW even without LayWaste (he has 3 Cleaves because of Barbarian Supreme Cleave) and there was also a huge boost once he maxed out both Malicious Weapons & Wild Weapons.

    We also have a Drow Rapier TWF who is also close to maxing out FotW and may also twist in Momentum Swing and feat change for some Cleaves just to see how they go. His crits hit for less but they happen more often and I think he is generating Adrenaline charges on 20s on either hand so I think he can gen & spend more charges than our Barb over time...

    For both of them for Christmas I icy bursted multiple X Burst of Super X-Letting weapons and for non-DR mobs they are awesome. While building up FotW Adrenaline charges the H-O is using the Falchions & the Drow Rapiers but once they both fully unlock the FotW Unbridled Fury Epic Moment I want them to break out the banked icy-bursted Great Axes & Heavy Picks versions.

    As the static party's only healer (currently human 20 cleric) I am afraid to LR or LR+3 because of the LR bug but as we start to do Epic Elites and my DCs don't land anymore I want to go Melee instead of Spells... Still grinding to unlock my third twist (I play more than the others) but I am thinking I will go Unyielding Sentinel (for more survivability in general & because then I can't be knocked down in Stand Against the Tide Stance) with Momentum Swing & both Cleaves at least for melee DPS. I am hoping that will be enough to keep me busy and help DPS some and my other twists may be healing related (renewal, etc)... I heal best when up front with the melee with my aura/bursts and the most important thing is that I have to stay on my feet as pretty much the only time we wipe is when I get knocked down...

    Sorry I can't verify more than that at this point but we only play once a week (this particular party since 2009)...
    Last edited by Nodoze; 02-07-2013 at 05:08 PM.

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