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  1. #21
    Founder & Hero Vordax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Emperor View Post
    Hmm I always run with a cleric hire and they've always been able to warn me about traps.
    Then my fighter would just have to tank them.
    Of course I've never done higher than a level 7 dungeon before.
    Does this change at higher levels?
    Clerics at low level will have a naturally high spot due to wisdom being the stat for the skill and the base stat for the class. Once the traps "spot DC" is higher than 20 only a rogue or artificer (or I think someone that used a "find traps" spell) can actually spot them.

    The spot DC is typically lower than the disarm DC so it is highly reasonable that you have not run into a trap that a hireling cannot notice since you have only gotten to level 7.

    Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first. - Ronald Reagan

  2. #22
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordax View Post
    Clerics at low level will have a naturally high spot due to wisdom being the stat for the skill and the base stat for the class. Once the traps "spot DC" is higher than 20 only a rogue or artificer (or I think someone that used a "find traps" spell) can actually spot them.

    The spot DC is typically lower than the disarm DC so it is highly reasonable that you have not run into a trap that a hireling cannot notice since you have only gotten to level 7.
    The trap DC thing holds true for players, but it seems like th ehires can spot traps they shouldnt. Of course they just notice that theres so,mething there, but since their search is -100 they cant find out where it is even when its spraying acid at them

  3. #23
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    You have three choices for primary stat on a rogue: STR, INT, or DEX. STR-based gives you higher to-hit & base melee DPS; INT-based gives you more skill pts & higher Assassinate DCs; DEX-based gives you higher AC & Reflex saves and means you don't have to worry about DEX tomes to qualify for TWF feats nor Imp Sneak Atk.

    I would say DEX-based rogues are purely for flavor, those stuck w/28-pt builds, and/or those lacking the resources to take the necessary tomes. STR rogues are for those who want to focus on their sustained DPS; INT rogues are for those who want to focus on their instakills.

  4. #24
    Community Member squishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Emperor View Post
    Wow I took a quick look over there and saw they laughed at dex.
    It's all about strength and int for a rouge?

    Now I'm confused.
    The debate is whether you go weapons finesse or straight-up STR for more damage on every hit.

    On a DEX-based rogue, your total damage output sucks with each hit. However, the high DEX helps with reflex saves, evasion, and other things. Plus you need it for stealth because sneaking goes hand-in-hand with assassinate. If you can't sneak around behind a mob, assassinating them is pointless.

    If you expect to do a lot of straight-up melee, you want a decent STR score.

    You can laugh at having a DEX-based rogue with several past-lives behind you. If you are a first-lifer, not familiar with what it takes to run a rogue, there's not much to laugh about. I find, personally, that some of the advice you'll get on the forums comes from people who are overly familiar on a topic, and seem to forget what it was like starting out with limitations. So yeah, they can laugh as things like weapons finesse - they don't have to rely heavily on them as an option, and they know how to get around the deficincies. You don't and can't.

    As a rogue, a lot of groups will expect you to be a decent trapper. So that means having a decent WIS for Spot, INT for disable, and DEX for opening locks.

    If this is your first rogue, my personal opinion is go DEX-based, get weapons finesse (as much as the damage output sucks) because it is a little easier to manage than adding on STR as a base stat that you need to target. You're less spread out in your base stats, and your level-ups are a little easier to manage without having to keep that one extra stat in mind.

    I'd also drop that DEX score a little and maybe inflate WIS a little to enhance your Spot. Just make sure you meet the requirements for stuff like Improved Evasion.

    You'll also need a lot of gear at first to pull off trapping and being an assasin. Most trapping is highly gear-dependant anyways, but you'll need stuff for the following:

    1) Sneak item - because rogues are actually supposed to be stealthy,
    2) WIS item - for Spot mostly,
    3) DEX item - because rogues are supposed to be stealthy (again),
    4) INT item - for disabling stuff and assasinations,
    5) CHR item - for UMD and bluffs,
    6) Escape item - I think this is an Open Lock booster,
    7) Disabling item - for trapping (can be swapped in when needed),
    8) Pursuasion item (can be crafted) - for UMD,
    9) Ogre power item - because having a so-so STR avoids being helpless when a wizzy enfeebles you,
    10) Spot item - for trapping,
    11) CON item - for HP,
    12) False Life item - for HP.

    The thing you're also going to want to slot somehow is a decent Bluff item, especially if you are going to solo. Bluff-pulling mobs one at a time to kill them, while slow, it a very effective way of running a dungeon. Bluff also helps in melee to initiate sneak attack damage. Bluff is a rogues (and an assassin's) bestest friend in the whole wide world. A Balance item wouldn't hurt either.

    As you progress in levels, you'll want to accumulate sets that will help you compensate for weapons finesse deficiencies. You need banishers, disruptors, smiters, CC weapons / armor (earthgrab, paralyzers, etc.). You'd be surprised at how fast a first-life rogue with weapons finesse can take out a majority of mobs in the Vale by dual-wielding a pair of Envenomed Blades. It's almost like taking candy from a baby.

    You can always revert to using Knock scrolls because of your UMD score, and ignore Open Lock. However, there are some chests where Knock will not work, so take that into account.

    Once you get the hang of a rogue by leveling from 1 to 20, THEN you can start looking at STR-based stuff.

    Honestly, I never knew how complicated rogues could be until I tried one. Still, they are fun to run (if you like that sort of thing) and extremely versitile.
    Antipan, Pandargon, Pandolin, Panifin, Panmorgan, Pangrael, and all other things "pan-ed"...

  5. #25
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squishwizzy View Post
    Bluff also helps in melee to initiate sneak attack damage.
    A Deception item, like the Golden Guile, also helps quite a bit with getting sneak attacks.
    Ryiah | Raeyah | Reikara
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by squishwizzy View Post
    I'd also drop that DEX score a little and maybe inflate WIS a little to enhance your Spot. Just make sure you meet the requirements for stuff like Improved Evasion.
    Whether you go in, str or dex the idea of putting points in wisdom is a bad idea. If you find an item with some wisdom on it, and can fit it on your setup that is great. Putting build points in though.. an increase of 2 wisdom is +1 to your spot. That is pretty steep. With spot as a class skill a rogue can easily afford 1 point per level into it, and you can get +15 to spot items around lvl 13, maybe even 11 if a racial restricted one drops for your race.

    From korthos get the trap skills set, then if you can the +5 spot/search goggles from chronoscope for lvl 5. That should last you until you get a +10 item, which could be as early as level 8 if you get the Snakeskin Vest from the lordsmarch quests. You'd need a higher level to run you through, or a shared bank and farming it on your own higher level though.

    Bottom line is you can get your spot, search and disable up enough with items that you don't need to go throwing limited build points around.

  7. #27
    Community Member Gleep_Wurp's Avatar
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    Default with a starting wis of 8

    you are not going to spot very well.i shoot for 12 base (go 10 and add +2 tome at lvl7)

  8. #28
    Community Member Magic_Emperor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gleep_Wurp View Post
    you are not going to spot very well.i shoot for 12 base (go 10 and add +2 tome at lvl7)
    So I should lower my Dex to 17, put 2 points into wis, then put all 5 of my level-up points into Dex after taking Weapon Finesse.

    Hmm...

    Off to get that last 8 favor I need in Tangleroot Gorge.

  9. #29
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Emperor View Post
    Advice on making my Drow Rouge please.
    I've found this link to be helpful.

  10. #30
    Community Member Thlargir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    I've found this link to be helpful.
    It is imperative not to skimp on the Cochineal. As much plat as you can spare for the quality stuff.

    I suppose you could grind your own...

  11. #31
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gleep_Wurp View Post
    you are not going to spot very well.i shoot for 12 base (go 10 and add +2 tome at lvl7)
    Ugh - no. Stat pts are too precious on a rogue - particularly drow - to waste on WIS (or CHA).

  12. #32
    Community Member Magic_Emperor's Avatar
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    Well the deed is done.
    I went with int/dex and I'm going to take weapon finesse.

    I just need some advice on the feats to take, and the enhancements.

    What are the best traps to make and should I build up one kind if trap and use that or spread it around and make many kinds of traps?

    And of course, when to take toughness?

  13. #33
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    A little late to post this, but my take on an INT-based drow rogue:
    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 20 True Neutral Drow Female
    (20 Rogue) 
    Hit Points: 222
    Spell Points: 0 
    BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
    Fortitude: 8
    Reflex: 17
    Will: 6
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             12                    14
    Dexterity            17                    21
    Constitution         12                    14
    Intelligence         18                    26
    Wisdom                8                    10
    Charisma             10                    12
    
    Tomes Used
    +2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
    +3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 20
    
    Level 1 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 2 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 3 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    
    
    Level 4 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: INT
    
    
    Level 5 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 6 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Precision
    Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
    Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
    Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
    Enhancement: Drow Weapon Damage I
    Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
    Enhancement: Improved Hide I
    Enhancement: Improved Hide II
    Enhancement: Improved Move Silently I
    Enhancement: Improved Move Silently II
    Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I
    
    
    Level 7 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 8 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: INT
    
    
    Level 9 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 10 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
    
    
    Level 11 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 12 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: INT
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
    Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
    Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III
    Enhancement: Drow Weapon Damage II
    Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
    Enhancement: Rogue Assassin II
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV
    
    
    Level 13 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Opportunist
    
    
    Level 14 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 15 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 16 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: INT
    Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Crippling Strike
    
    
    Level 17 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 18 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
    
    
    Level 19 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Defensive Roll
    
    
    Level 20 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: DEX
    Enhancement: Rogue Extra Action Boost I
    Enhancement: Rogue Extra Action Boost II
    Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost IV
    Enhancement: Rogue Deadly Shadow
    Enhancement: Rogue Assassin III
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy IV
    Enhancement: Rogue Wand and Scroll Mastery I
    Enhancement: Rogue Wand and Scroll Mastery II
    Enhancement: Rogue Wand and Scroll Mastery III
    Enhancement: Rogue Wand and Scroll Mastery IV
    Epic feats: Imp Sneak Atk and Imp Sunder

    A few comments:

    The main thing I don't like about this build is starting CON 12; so definitely invest in the best +CON, Fortification, and HP gear you can ASAP. EDIT: you may also want to start CON 14 INT 16 instead.

    Tomes: only two tomes are req'd for this build: +1 STR for Power Atk; and +3 DEX (or rather +2 base and +3 upgrade) for ISA (base 17 + 3 tome + 1 lvl-up). Worst-case scenario and you only have a +2 DEX tome; then put final lvl-up into DEX (base 17 + 2 tome + 2 lvl-ups) and delay ISA to lvl 24.

    Weapons: While leveling, using rapiers or short swords to take advantage of drow dmg bonuses; if you can get them, a pair of Tiefling Blades from 3BC are good low-lvl weapons - d6 poison dmg, keen, crit profile of a rapier, and use DEX for atk & dmg mod (so no need for Finesse). As an INT Assassin, you will definitely want an eMG; once you have it, you may want to swap IC:Pierce for Slash and switch to using kukris full-time - in which case drop the drow weapon dmg enhs.

    EDIT: there's 4 APs left unspent at lvl 20; they can go towards e.g. evening out DEX or whatever.
    Last edited by unbongwah; 01-13-2013 at 12:21 PM.

  14. #34
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    Ugh - no. Stat pts are too precious on a rogue - particularly drow - to waste on WIS (or CHA).
    You are talking stat points when you should be talking build points. It typically costs 2 build points to move a stat to 10, and it usually costs 10 build points to move a stat to 16. It costs 16 build points, typically, to move a stat to 18.

    Wisdom is a stat that EVERYONE uses. At high levels it is exercised almost constantly. I basically no longer allow my characters to remove their +6 enhancement bonus to will saves Cannith-crafted gear in favor of "better," higher-level options. The benefits just don't pan out. Also, the benefits of being able to spot random-spawn traps and sneaky mobs outweigh many other considerations. And yes, 1 or 2 points in a skill often make the difference between no-fail and auto-fail in DDO's horribly screwed-up trapsmithing system.

    A rogue should not be given a stat emphasis identifier. Basically every stat is almost equally useful... even strength which will often prevent becoming incapacitated by Symbol of Weakness. In today's DDO you need a seriously good reason to push a stat beyond the 14 mark... basically casting stats are the only conditions that apply.

    The only other reason I can think of is that you are trying to match the stats to an RP character type.
    Last edited by Raithe; 01-13-2013 at 01:08 PM.

  15. #35
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    On the issue of trapmaking.....

    I have NEVER seen a player deploy a trap for any tactical or strategic reason during a quest. To show off, yes....but, even then, not very often. Trapmaking seems to be a practically ignored facet of the game.

    Now I understand that Trapmaking allows you to deconstruct handwraps and craft collars for the animal companions of Druids and the Artificer pets. To be perfectly honest, I had no idea that Rogues were the ones who made the collars- I thought it was part of Alchemical Crafting- until I read a post on Trapmaking in which someone informed me. I've still not tried my hand at it, but I know that, when playing my Artificer, I check the AH on a very regular basis looking for collar upgrades and am routinely disappointed by the lack of choices. I would pay pretty good coin to be able to expand my selection of collars, so perhaps there is the potential of moneymaking in this part of Trapmaking.
    In an election, always vote for the candidate who likes big butts....because, you know, they cannot lie.

    KCCO

  16. #36
    Community Member squishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    Ugh - no. Stat pts are too precious on a rogue - particularly drow - to waste on WIS (or CHA).
    Really.

    I've got a 28-point rogue, with a minimum WIS. He coul disable / open great, but Spot? Crappy. Near lvl 20, with epic lvl 16 Treasure Hunter's Spyglass equipped, and a +5 WIS item the toon was having real problems spotting stuff on elite.

    So I respectfully disagee.
    Antipan, Pandargon, Pandolin, Panifin, Panmorgan, Pangrael, and all other things "pan-ed"...

  17. #37
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    This build is already constrained by 4 stats: INT, DEX, CON, and STR. You don't need to make it worse by adding a 5th. WIS is only good for two things on a rogue: Spot & Will saves. For Spot (or any other skill), ranks, items, and buffs have far more to do with your final skill than your base stat. Will saves are admittedly an Achilles heel for rogues, but FOM protects against Hold spells and Death Ward protects against most (all?) Necro spells; and this is one of the few instances where drow SR is semi-useful while leveling until you get those buffs to protect you. At which point, I'd be far more worried about the Fort saves; a single Disintegrate can really ruin your day.

  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    In today's DDO you need a seriously good reason to push a stat beyond the 14 mark... basically casting stats are the only conditions that apply.
    Agree, to a point. I've always felt one should have a specific reason in mind when paying doubles in a stat, on a rogue at least.

    As far as spot, I'd consider using a couple AP before using build points in wisdom (if purely for spot) ... reason being, stats tend to matter a lot less than gear at the higher levels and AP can be swapped around a lot easier to get the sweet spot (no pun intended) than can build points.
    Last edited by SableShadow; 01-14-2013 at 09:58 AM.
    Brenna / Tzanna, The Dancing Rogues of Argonnessen
    Ascent on Argo
    "As the party's resident trap expert ..." <dies with smug yet surprised expression on face>

  19. #39
    Community Member fco-karatekid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanteEnFuego View Post
    At first blush...
    "Advice on making my Drow Rouge please."

    LOL, ISWYDT

  20. #40
    Community Member Feralthyrtiaq's Avatar
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    Default First choose a good base powder...

    Like corn starch or talcum.

    Second find a color that squeams Evilllll!!!! (but playfully adventurous) like a nice Pyre Ash Grey....
    I am often cynical and say mean things. It's a WAI "Feature".

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