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  1. #1
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    Default Midlevel spell advice

    I've got a 10th level first life wizard. This is my first time playing an arcane (played barb and fvs so far). I've got a WF AM toon that was primarily fire and acid but now I've geared him to do ice and electric as well. Have spell focus: conjuration and greater spell focus: necromancy.

    I was soloing more (elites for streak) but now I'm almost always in a group. I had to be more self-sufficient being able to efficiently kill everything myself which primarily meant web (sla) and firewalls. But as I do more group play (starting VoN, Necro 2 and Red Fens) I'll have others filling their roles and I'll want to settle more into the CC role for the tougher content.

    My current strategy is to spam web (sla) and kite through firewall. Suggestion has been my CC (beyond web) and I have a few other direct damage spells that I use (scorching ray, lightning bolt). However, I really haven't added any cold spells to my rotation and I'm barely using electric so I'll want to change that especially now that I've got my spell power gear to cover both.

    What spells should I start using more in the level 10-14 range? Such as CC beyond web? Best AoE and single target DPS? Any other specialty spells I should start using more? Are instakill spells worth it at this level? I'm essentially looking for what's effective in this range as well as good value/use for the spell points with the focus that I'll be CC first, instakills second, nuking last. Thanks.

    Cheers,
    Sylvan

  2. #2
    Community Member squishwizzy's Avatar
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    First, most of the CC in the game centers around Enchantment. Conjuration has Web and (I believe) Grease. Both are pretty situational.

    Web starts losing effectiveness when you start running Vale quests, because devils teleport out of the webs. Your only effective CC then becomes Stone to Flesh (Abjuration, I believe) Ottos, holds, charms, and so on. But then you start running into spell resistence, and need to bolster spell pen and other things to compensate. Which means that by taking Conjuration, you need gear to get past SR.

    The upside is that there's still quite a bit that Web is effective on at higher levels. So you're not totally gimped. You just need to have a fallback plan for Devils, Hezrou, those Fire Reavers, etc. Web works GREAT in Cannith, for example.

    As for CC at mid-levels, I still use Web for the most. You'll be getting Ottos Sphere of Dancing, which is very popular in upper levels. Fascinate is nice. Most CC aside from Web and Grease works very much the same. What it will work on effectively tends to be very situational.

    As for best AoE, that depends. It should like you're picking up enhancements in each elemental line : I wouldn't advise that. You end up spreading yourself pretty thin, doing slightly more damage with all elemental lines, as opposed to LOTS of damage with maybe two. I'd re-think your picks in this area.

    getting back to AoEs: I'vbe always been partial to Ice Storm and Acid Rain myself. Firewall is also a big winner. There's the sonic one with the knowdown capability (can't remember the name at the moment) that is nice in a lot of situations. Again, I don't see one AoE being better than the other. The only exception Ice Storm because it does both cold and force damage to mobs.

    At mid-levels, fire spells are pretty effective. However, past that, cold and acid dominate (most stuff is immune to fire in upper levels). You're kinda at that verge where you might want to change things up and go in a different direction.

    Chain Lightning is another one of my favorite AoEs. However, as a first-life wizzy, you're probably not going to be able to pull off lighthing spells effectivelty, because a lot of mobs will evade them. But if you can pull it off, the damage can be devastating. A LOT of stuff in upper levels is damaged by lightning. Plus onbe f the DoTs you'll use on a boss Elder's Surge and Niac's Cold - that do stacking damage is in the electrical spell category...and it is a spell that cannot be evaded.

    Another thing when it comes to low-level ranged spells - do not underestimate their value. Forst Lance can do some pretty hefty damage as a ranged spell. Oltilukes is another one that can be real devastationg (plus it does damage though barriers and obstructions). Scorching ray has a LONG reach does a lot of damage for fewer SP.
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  3. #3
    Community Member Bart_D's Avatar
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    I would not worry too much about the elemental enhancements. More damage is nice but with Maximize + implement + spell power item + 40 from first rank (easily 250 together), each 10 points of spell power will give less than 4% of damage. Also, with almost-free Heightened+Quickened Webs, mobs should have plenty time to cook/freeze/shrivel in your aoe spell while the melees chop them up.

    Much more importantly:
    At level 11 you'll get Circle of Death (and probably Reconstruct)
    At level 13 you'll get Finger of Death (and maybe Otto's Sphere)
    I think those spells will change how you play, suddenly you can kill (almost) anything instantly and at range.

    Of course you should have dots for bosses, dps spells and CC spells other than Web (Otto's Sphere can be great when Web isn't appropriate but it's slow to cast and costs way more sp) but I'd really focus on instakills.

    My own WF necro/conj archmage carries all of Wall of Fire, Ice Storn and Acid Rain and uses what is best against a given mob. I instakill a lot but don't generally nuke much. Like squishwizzy i'll suggest carrying spells like Scorching Ray and Frost Lance but I think you'll be better off with a different focus.
    Last edited by Bart_D; 01-10-2013 at 02:48 AM.

  4. #4
    Community Member moops's Avatar
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    I'd Add to the above:

    Otto's resistable dance (lvl2) can be a lifesaver until you get the better one and lvl 2 spell is easier to slot than say the single cast hold monster..When you do an elite dungeon with a group it scales up and mobs start to save more. Some casters are very effective at sneaking up to beholders that can't be insta killed, and dancing them for instance, or orange named casters.

    Problem in groups with web, is that your own teamates often times destroy it

    I change my enhancements quite a bit, I spec in fire til about the Vale, then switch to Cold, with a secondary in either Acid or Lightning.

    Electric loop can also be a great CC spell...Also Halt Undead and often times it works off of scrolls.

    Undeath to death is one of my favorite spells and use it quite a bit in VOL and Orchard stuff, and then again in Epic Levels.
    Last edited by moops; 01-10-2013 at 03:30 AM.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bart_D View Post
    At level 11 you'll get Circle of Death (and probably Reconstruct)
    At level 13 you'll get Finger of Death (and maybe Otto's Sphere)
    I think those spells will change how you play, suddenly you can kill (almost) anything instantly and at range.

    Of course you should have dots for bosses, dps spells and CC spells other than Web (Otto's Sphere can be great when Web isn't appropriate but it's slow to cast and costs way more sp) but I'd really focus on instakills.
    This is right on. For nukes, I found Ottilukes to be king for my playstyle. One of it's advantages is targeting... which is to say you don't have to most of the time, look down and cast to nuke everything near you. Sometimes targeting a mob is good, but often just casting with reticule in that general direction is more effective since the mobs will often move and you're trying for center mass on a group. Ice storm is terrific, but most fights when grouping go too fast for it to have good effect. Chain lightning can also be great and will out-damage Ottiluke's when it double-strikes, but I find it harder in general to target to best effect. Acid storm is terrific both solo and in groups as it does great damage in short period. I wouldn't bother much with single target in a group, just let the melee handle those or use FoD when you get it. Solo... this will sound strange but I prefer ice storm for both groups and solo mobs as the damage over time will generally kill with a single cast, making it very mana effecient.

    I agree you should probably pick 2 elements and max them. Ice/electric is great for the 2 single target dots at level 5 (which you'll want regardless of what elements you choose) and for some great damage from lightning in general. Ice/acid is also great for the awesomeness that is acid rain, and block dragon bolt. Ice is the constant for Niac's biting cold, ice storm, polar ray, and Ottiluke's, which is the best and most versatile arsenal of the 4 elements IMO.

  6. #6
    Community Member tekkentroop's Avatar
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    I like cone of cold at that level. Not as efficient as ice storm, but good for quick nuking. My wiz is also cold and acid, imho cold is the element with the best spell selection.

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    Thanks all. I really appreciate the insight.

    I haven't put that many points in my elemental enhancements. I think I have 3 levels on a few of the elements and at least 1 in all of the ones I cast. I do plan to redo my enhancements soon. His build current has spell power gear for all four elements, which is probably overkill but I can focus depending on which casting sticks are equipped. Given that he will be more CC/instakill in the build it makes sense to put those points elsewhere.

    For CC, do folks run with single target Hold Monster? What about Suggestion, Mass? Seems that on 5th and 6th spells it'll be hard to slot those in before many others. Though as a wizard I can change and try different combos.

    I appreciate the guidance on the nukes/aoes. It makes sense and it looks like cold is my better bet since I don't have great DCs to deal with so many reflex saves.

    Cheers,
    Sylvan

  8. #8
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squishwizzy View Post
    First, most of the CC in the game centers around Enchantment. Conjuration has Web and (I believe) Grease. Both are pretty situational.

    Web starts losing effectiveness when you start running Vale quests, because devils teleport out of the webs. Your only effective CC then becomes Stone to Flesh (Abjuration, I believe) Ottos, holds, charms, and so on. But then you start running into spell resistence, and need to bolster spell pen and other things to compensate. Which means that by taking Conjuration, you need gear to get past SR.

    The upside is that there's still quite a bit that Web is effective on at higher levels. So you're not totally gimped. You just need to have a fallback plan for Devils, Hezrou, those Fire Reavers, etc. Web works GREAT in Cannith, for example.
    I dispute the factual basis for this advice. The devil/demon teleportation ability does not in itself defeat Web or other CC, the way the Drow Priestess God mode ability does, for instance. What you are seeing is the devil/demon making its save to break free of the Web just like any other monster, then moving away unlike most other monsters via teleportation. You can solve this just like you would any other monster that saves against your Web: kite it right back through. Hezrou and orthons have particularly bad Reflex saves, and are easily controlled with Web.

    While it is correct that Fire Reavers (and all fire types) are outright immune, this does not make Web any more situational than true constructs and undead being outright immune to Enchantments. I would argue by relative monster proportion that Web is less situational, and therefore that most of the CC you use should center around Web, especially as an AM. You will get many people who want you to cast Hold on everything, because it will let them do more DPS, and you will get many people who want you to cast Otto's Sphere, because it is what they are used to. This does not in any way indicate that those methods are necessary or superior.
    Quote Originally Posted by SylvanPhoenix
    For CC, do folks run with single target Hold Monster? What about Suggestion, Mass? Seems that on 5th and 6th spells it'll be hard to slot those in before many others. Though as a wizard I can change and try different combos.
    Regarding your first question, I have never slotted single target Hold (Monster or Person) on any of my arcanes, and have never missed it.

    .

    Regarding the question of spell selection...
    -you should have both level 5 power DoTs soon if not already. They are by far your most powerful single target DPS spells, and always will be.
    -level 6 has a very wide range of selections. True Seeing, GH, Circle of Death, Disintegrate, and Reconstruct if WF are all powerful. The two nukes, Undeath to Death, Flesh to Stone, Necrotic Ray, and Mass Suggestion are all situationally useful. I would start with CoD and Recon followed by GH. You can scroll it but it's annoying.
    -level 7 is way more boring. Finger of Death, Otto's Sphere, and nothing else is terribly impressive.

  9. #9
    Community Member squishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    I dispute the factual basis for this advice. The devil/demon teleportation ability does not in itself defeat Web or other CC...
    You can dispute it. I've seen it happen numerous times, especially in eChrono and Amrath. They get trapped for a time, then next thing I know they disappear out of the web and start stomping on my skull. That's why I started switching to Enchantment and just beefing-up to break SR. Yet the same webs work pretty well in the Cannith quests, and even trap epic Drow. So it is not, in my estimation, a saving throw and a coincidental teleport.

    Now, that may be a bug; I'm not sure if it is. I would put it up there to the devils that dance their way across the Otto's AoE and start attacking me, or paralyzed foes that run down the hall at double-speed. And yeah, I've had that happen too.

    Then you get into the STR / DEX thing for the ensnare and breaking the effect. The reality is that if you don't specifically select that school as a focus, your Web is going to be a tad hit-or-miss.

    I'm not saying that Web sucks, or that it doesn't have a use - right now with my mid-level wizzy I'm spamming the livin' c-r-a-p out of it. I'm just saying that in my recent experience it is rather situational, and not a catch-all CC especially at upper levels.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    While it is correct that Fire Reavers (and all fire types) are outright immune, this does not make Web any more situational than true constructs and undead being outright immune to Enchantments. I would argue by relative monster proportion that Web is less situational, and therefore that most of the CC you use should center around Web, especially as an AM. You will get many people who want you to cast Hold on everything, because it will let them do more DPS, and you will get many people who want you to cast Otto's Sphere, because it is what they are used to. This does not in any way indicate that those methods are necessary or superior.
    I never said that one form of CC was superior to another. I'm just pointing out that there are instances where Web has deficiencies, and that you'd better have a backup form of CC to keep the mobs occupied. And as you noted about constructs, I also reaffirmed with the cannith quests (which are, like, 90% populated with constructs).

    However, if you are an AM and you're centering your CC around Web, you'd best be prepared to take a beating at higher levels. Most of your bread-and-butter CC is in Enchantment - I don't think anyone will deny that. If you want to rely heavily on CC, your best bet is Enchantment focus, and beefing up spell pen.

    It is what it is.
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  10. #10
    Community Member squishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SylvanPhoenix View Post
    For CC, do folks run with single target Hold Monster? What about Suggestion, Mass? Seems that on 5th and 6th spells it'll be hard to slot those in before many others. Though as a wizard I can change and try different combos.
    Honsetly, maybe Charm I'll slot, which has benefits and disadvantages. A lot of PUGs don't like spells like Charm because they want to kill everything. A single Hold Monster spell? Never slot it. Lower levels tend to have a lot of undead, so I'll use the Halt Undead or Control Undead spell more, which is probably my most popular single-mob CC spell, with Web coming up a close second.

    Suggestion is like Charm but has the same basic downsides.

    Typically, I'll slot mass hold monster, mass charm monster, and mass suggestion and use these in upper-level content. Really, it depends on the group you're in (PUGs would be more comfortable with Hold spells), and what your playstyle is. If you run with zergers, a single-target hold spell might be pointless as by the time you zap off the spell, the mob is dead, and you wasted SP. Which is why I tend to slot the mass versions of charm, hold, and Ottos than the single-target version of these.
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    I think I failed to comment on the CC part.

    My experience is CC is pretty weak in general until you hit late game when the mobs get massive HP. With a decent group mobs just die too fast. I was very disappointed with the contribution my CC based AM was making in early and mid-game content. Most of the time it's frankly more effective to throw a FoD or Ottiluke's just to help speed up the already fast killing. As such, your job is to look for what can make you effective at any given moment. First thing I look for is an enemy caster to finger. If there are a bunch of casters, circle of death or web can be effective. If a fight with high HP mobs (lots of orcs/ogres for instance) you CC spells like otto's and web are valuable, or to control any mobs that have annoying movement (teleporter's , scorpions, etc). As a wizard you are the swiss army knife, you just have to make sure you always bring the right tool out for the circumstances. Don't get overly invested in the idea of "this is my role" since your role may vary depending on the quest/mobs/party.

  12. #12
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squishwizzy View Post
    You can dispute it. I've seen it happen numerous times, especially in eChrono and Amrath. They get trapped for a time, then next thing I know they disappear out of the web and start stomping on my skull. That's why I started switching to Enchantment and just beefing-up to break SR. Yet the same webs work pretty well in the Cannith quests, and even trap epic Drow. So it is not, in my estimation, a saving throw and a coincidental teleport.
    How would you tell the difference, though? Which is to say, what makes you believe that a possibly buggy behavior is occurring rather than an indistinguishable behavior in accordance with the descriptions?
    Then you get into the STR / DEX thing for the ensnare and breaking the effect. The reality is that if you don't specifically select that school as a focus, your Web is going to be a tad hit-or-miss.
    This is why Web remains so beautiful: as a persistent AoE, it doesn't have to stick everything the first time. Or the second time. Or the third time. It's going to catch one out of the group, your melees can wail on that, by the time they're finished you'll have another caught, and so on. As an SLA you can spam, you can even set up batteries of Web, or easily re-Web if your melees are a little slow on the uptake and won't kite a freed aggroed back into the Web.
    However, if you are an AM and you're centering your CC around Web, you'd best be prepared to take a beating at higher levels. Most of your bread-and-butter CC is in Enchantment - I don't think anyone will deny that. If you want to rely heavily on CC, your best bet is Enchantment focus, and beefing up spell pen.
    I deny it, vociferously. I play a wizard throughout endgame and literally the only times I use Dancing Ball are for fire types or if I'm bored. I use Irresistible Dance a considerable amount, but of course that has no save and therefore offers no impetus to spec Enchantment.

    We agree that Spell Pen is important, but not because it is CC-relevant.

  13. #13
    Community Member squishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    How would you tell the difference, though? Which is to say, what makes you believe that a possibly buggy behavior is occurring rather than an indistinguishable behavior in accordance with the descriptions?
    I run eChrono a lot. And eChrono, at least on my server, tends to draw a lot of new players. And new players who hit epic levels will undoubtedly not be spec-ed the spell pen. So, when they see the discoballs not holding them they hit their trusty fall-back, which is Web. I did the same thing with my first wizzy, which is why I went back and LRed him, and took spell pen up the wazoo.

    So, I'll see web used somewhat frequently in eChrono in the marketplace area. The first "tleporting devil out a web" hasppened to me. It happend to me twice in the same eChrono. To me, that was more than a coincidence.

    So then, after my re-spec, I kept note of when other people dropped web. And I startd to see the same thing happen with devils in webs. If the melee doesn't beat them down quickly, they teleport out and random aggro. But they DON'T have that same type of behavior with holds and Ottos.

    In Ottos, they dance across the AoE and attack you. That I've seen firsthand.

    So, I'm not baseing this on just one incident. I'm basing it on a number of incidents that has happendf both pre U14, and post. I've TRed the wizzy, and haven't run eChrono for some time now. If that has changed, I'd like to know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    This is why Web remains so beautiful: as a persistent AoE, it doesn't have to stick everything the first time. Or the second time. Or the third time. It's going to catch one out of the group, your melees can wail on that, by the time they're finished you'll have another caught, and so on. As an SLA you can spam, you can even set up batteries of Web, or easily re-Web if your melees are a little slow on the uptake and won't kite a freed aggroed back into the Web.
    Like I said, I like using Web. You're not telling me anything I don't alread know. But frankly, if I have to kite mobs through web three or 4 times, it is an issue. It needs to stick them the first time. Otherwise they gang-up on someone (most likely me) and kill them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    I deny it, vociferously. I play a wizard throughout endgame and literally the only times I use Dancing Ball are for fire types or if I'm bored. I use Irresistible Dance a considerable amount, but of course that has no save and therefore offers no impetus to spec Enchantment.
    True. But that wasn't my point. My point was that most of the CC in the game is firmly under Enchantment, and most of that (if not all of it) requires a decent spell pen. Again, Web is nice, but as you've just pointed out, is not a guaranteed grab-and-hold solution. In fact, no method is a grab-and-hold solution for most environments which is why I advise that you have a ready backup if you're going heavy CC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    We agree that Spell Pen is important, but not because it is CC-relevant.
    Oh really? There are approx. 17 crowd-control spells in the Enchantment school, and virtually all of them require spell pen to be effective.

    Conjuration has what? Maybe five? Seven at best?

    Evocation has five, off the top of my head.

    Necromancy has about 6 or 8, and those are generally based off of spell pen.

    Yeah, I'd say that spell pen is important for CC.
    Antipan, Pandargon, Pandolin, Panifin, Panmorgan, Pangrael, and all other things "pan-ed"...

  14. #14
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squishwizzy View Post
    I run eChrono a lot. And eChrono, at least on my server, tends to draw a lot of new players. And new players who hit epic levels will undoubtedly not be spec-ed the spell pen. So, when they see the discoballs not holding them they hit their trusty fall-back, which is Web. I did the same thing with my first wizzy, which is why I went back and LRed him, and took spell pen up the wazoo.

    So, I'll see web used somewhat frequently in eChrono in the marketplace area. The first "tleporting devil out a web" hasppened to me. It happend to me twice in the same eChrono. To me, that was more than a coincidence.

    So then, after my re-spec, I kept note of when other people dropped web. And I startd to see the same thing happen with devils in webs. If the melee doesn't beat them down quickly, they teleport out and random aggro. But they DON'T have that same type of behavior with holds and Ottos.
    It sounds to me like you're just observing that devils have lower Will saves than Strength, which is certainly true for thug devils. But my point, which is admittedly a bit semantic, is that they are still saving first and then teleporting, rather than bypassing the save mechanic entirely by teleporting.
    In Ottos, they dance across the AoE and attack you. That I've seen firsthand.
    That definitely happens, for really any AoE effect, we also agree on that.
    Like I said, I like using Web. You're not telling me anything I don't alread know. But frankly, if I have to kite mobs through web three or 4 times, it is an issue. It needs to stick them the first time. Otherwise they gang-up on someone (most likely me) and kill them.
    Well, but if you're kiting they're not hitting you that much, right?
    Oh really? There are approx. 17 crowd-control spells in the Enchantment school, and virtually all of them require spell pen to be effective.

    Conjuration has what? Maybe five? Seven at best?

    Evocation has five, off the top of my head.

    Necromancy has about 6 or 8, and those are generally based off of spell pen.

    Yeah, I'd say that spell pen is important for CC.
    If 90% of my CC is Web, only 10% (at most!) needs Spell Pen. Whether that 10% is 1 spell, 17 spells, or 170 spells, it's still 10%.

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    Community Member squishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    It sounds to me like you're just observing that devils have lower Will saves than Strength, which is certainly true for thug devils. But my point, which is admittedly a bit semantic, is that they are still saving first and then teleporting, rather than bypassing the save mechanic entirely by teleporting.
    Ok - and this is probably not going to come across well but bear with me - I'm a software developer. I'm kinda trained for observing this kinda stuff. When I catch something like this, I end up paying real close attention to specific situations to see if this is simply my perception of stuff, or if it is an actual, repeating behavior. It is part conditioning for the work I do.

    The criteria I'd place on this test is whether I catch one of those devils moving after they break the Web. The minute I see that, I immediately start to question what I initially saw. But I can't simply throw out my assumptions based on one observation alone, because devils have a saving throw, can break Web, and move around as they would normally do. This is part of the combat system.

    I then have to take in to account that the devil animations are entirely (or in part) driven from packets received from the DDO servers. I also have to take into account the rarity of the event, and my ability to catch the event when it occurs.

    My best test of this assumption (they are teleporting out of the webs) is if I see about 50% of the events with the assumed teleportation event, and 50% breaking web, moving around, and then teleporting. If it is about 50 / 50, my thought is that my assumptions are wrong, and that you are indeed correct. This is because in a system that performs in a way that is not all that efficient, you'll get about a 50 / 50 split. This comes from experience.

    However, from what I've seen, its more line 75% teleport, and 25% breaking web (and I'm trying to recall a lot of this from memory). Perhaps it is more towards the side of teleport than it is the saving throw.

    Granted, my sample size is small, and the event itself is rare.

    And yeah, I need to get out and do stuff more...smell the roses...plant a tree...etc...



    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    That definitely happens, for really any AoE effect, we also agree on that.Well, but if you're kiting they're not hitting you that much, right?If 90% of my CC is Web, only 10% (at most!) needs Spell Pen. Whether that 10% is 1 spell, 17 spells, or 170 spells, it's still 10%.
    Depends in the situation.

    Kiting them through the web often means running towards oncoming mobs. If you are a PM with an aura going, that might be a good thing. For anyone else, well, it's relatively bad.

    Kiting in many situations my trigger mobs down the hall if you somehow move into their line of sight, which might actually make things worse.

    I kite stuff from time to time when I have to, usually as a defensive manuver because CC doesn't take hold. Personally, it isn't something I look forward to doing. I'd rather I trap 4 out of 5 mobs, than 1 out of 5 and having to kite 4 of them. It just causes a lot of confusion.

    And then you have to deal with miffed melees who are running behing the mobs you're kiting because their first impluse it to hit anything that moves. Yeah, I know they should be attacking the stuff in the Web - if it is in the Web - but a PUG is what it is...

    As for percentages of CC that needs spell pen, if you want to be a web-only wizard, fine. I personally have no problems with that. However, as I've pointed out already, you're going to need a backup regardless. A huge chunk of that backup is going to be spell pen dependent. You don't have the spell pen, then you're basically going all-or-nothing with web in epic content where everything and its brother has SR. As I've demostrated, a huge chunk of those CC methods can be nullified with SR. I don't think it wise to ignore this when it comes to CC.
    Antipan, Pandargon, Pandolin, Panifin, Panmorgan, Pangrael, and all other things "pan-ed"...

  16. #16
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    whats with all the web hate?
    if i had a Web SLA with free heighten, i'd be spamming it up the wazoo.

    there is nothing wrong with using web at higher levels.
    if your spending points in improved heighten, then Web is always going to be cheep CC.
    with the SLA it's stupid cheep.

  17. #17
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squishwizzy View Post
    Ok - and this is probably not going to come across well but bear with me - I'm a software developer. I'm kinda trained for observing this kinda stuff. When I catch something like this, I end up paying real close attention to specific situations to see if this is simply my perception of stuff, or if it is an actual, repeating behavior. It is part conditioning for the work I do.

    The criteria I'd place on this test is whether I catch one of those devils moving after they break the Web. The minute I see that, I immediately start to question what I initially saw. But I can't simply throw out my assumptions based on one observation alone, because devils have a saving throw, can break Web, and move around as they would normally do. This is part of the combat system.
    But teleporting is how they (can) normally move around, especially when they are far away from their target (in this case you). That's what I'm trying to get at: how do you tell the difference between "save then teleport" and "fail but teleport anyways"?

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