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  1. #1
    The Hatchery whomhead's Avatar
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    Default PSA: Great Cleave does give off-hand attacks unarmed

    I think that there is a misconception that great cleave doesn't proc the off-hand attacks when used on a monk. In any case, I know I was under this impression. Fortunately, that impression is wrong.... some of the time.

    While it is true that Cleave does not ever proc off-hand attacks, great cleave does indeed work as you would expect for some races and sexes. My character where I initially noticed this was a male human. I'd heard bad things about GC, but took it anyway. So imagine my surprise to discover that Great Cleave was properly procing off-hand and doublestrike on all targets hit by the attack. Hooray!

    After posting my find here, others chimed in saying that this was not the case for some other characters, such as female elves, who do a weird hop animation before GC that significantly slows the attack. What's more, on the characters that did the hop, they were reported to not proc off-hand attacks.

    I found this very curious, so I did the most thorough test I could using freshly created level 7 characters with iTWF and GC. Here are the results:

    In all cases where the hop animation is used for GC I never saw an off-hand attack (these characters didn't have enough doublestrike to test that). The races that use this animation are:
    female humans and both sexes of Elf, Drow, and Half-orc.

    The other races I tested did not use the hop animation, and GC properly procced off-hand attacks. These are:
    male humans, and both sexes of Half-elves, halflings, dwarves, and warforged.

    So that's the story, until something changes...
    Last edited by whomhead; 03-20-2013 at 11:05 PM.

  2. #2
    Community Member Selchin's Avatar
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    Just in case anyone is curious, I just confirmed the offhand attacks with great cleave. Great catch, whomhead!

    I have yet to see a doublestrike proc, but that's not surprising given the test character I rolled (only 2.5% DS). Also, as far as I can tell, at least as a human monk, great cleave doesn't have any longer an animation than cleave, nor does it have the long pause I've heard others complaining of. Based on what I have heard, that may be race dependent, so it may just be working correctly for humans.

  3. #3
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    i can't speak for other races, as i don't have many unarmed builds, and only one of those has cleave/great cleave, but male and female elves attempting an unarmed great cleave do a weird little hop in the air (no damage) followed by a jumping-spin-kick type animation (the actual cleave) the hop slows down and breaks the attack sequence a bit.

    i do not know if the elven great cleave animation results in the proper number of attacks, but i can test it when i get home from work.

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  4. #4
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    elven unarmed great cleave and cleave animations. great cleave, followed by cleave, then the same sequence again.

    http://youtu.be/6ox3EWh1ak8


    also, altho not exactly the most scientific method of testing... i beat down the dummy one great cleave at a time, and never proc-ed 2 hits. so either i was exceedingly unlucky, or great cleave is broken for elves and not humans.

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  5. #5
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    Too bad Great Cleave has such a long delay for unarmed combat, unlike melee combat.

  6. #6
    The Hatchery whomhead's Avatar
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    It never occurred to me that this could be a human-specific thing. On my human monk it works flawlessly, and actually seems to speed up attack chains. Practically immediately after hitting the button for GC I see a bunch of numbers come up. Sounds very different from what is posted above regarding elves.

    I can check it out on the other races, but maybe someone else can do it faster...?

  7. #7
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    Interesting. Is this true for unarmed only? Has only tested with TWF melee instead? I can test when I get home tonight, but curious in the meantime.

  8. #8
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    I never scored offhand with great cleave on dummy (80% chance, dwarf axe).

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    elven unarmed great cleave and cleave animations. great cleave, followed by cleave, then the same sequence again.

    http://youtu.be/6ox3EWh1ak8


    also, altho not exactly the most scientific method of testing... i beat down the dummy one great cleave at a time, and never proc-ed 2 hits. so either i was exceedingly unlucky, or great cleave is broken for elves and not humans.

    I don't know about the procs, but for humans, male great cleave animation is the same as cleave, while female animation is the same as your elf. Don't have time tonight to do further testing, but i'm wondering if all other races are bugged, or just male human.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArcaneArcher52689 View Post
    I don't know about the procs, but for humans, male great cleave animation is the same as cleave, while female animation is the same as your elf. Don't have time tonight to do further testing, but i'm wondering if all other races are bugged, or just male human.
    Wait, so male humans don't have the high kick raised up before they do the spin kick? Damn those men!

  11. #11
    The Hatchery whomhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WielderofGigantus View Post
    Wait, so male humans don't have the high kick raised up before they do the spin kick? Damn those men!
    We wouldn't want people looking up our skirts... I mean kilts. I totally meant kilts. (Also no, there is no high kick).

  12. #12
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    Yes there is. I used Great Cleave on my monk's previous life. My monk would lift her leg up high as in a high kick, and then do a spinning kick. The delay was so long and broke up the attack sequence so much that I gave up on it in my current life.

  13. #13
    Community Member Daitengu's Avatar
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    Why would you even expect an offhand proc? First its a kick so no hands are involved. Second its a kick with a single leg. Not a combination like the normal hand attack sequence. So how would the offfoot come into play?

  14. #14
    The Hatchery whomhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WielderofGigantus View Post
    Yes there is. I used Great Cleave on my monk's previous life. My monk would lift her leg up high as in a high kick, and then do a spinning kick. The delay was so long and broke up the attack sequence so much that I gave up on it in my current life.
    You may want to note that we were talking about male humans. Your use of the word "her" tells me that this may not apply to your situation...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daitengu View Post
    Why would you even expect an offhand proc? First its a kick so no hands are involved. Second its a kick with a single leg. Not a combination like the normal hand attack sequence. So how would the offfoot come into play?
    Whether you expect it or not, it does work, at least with human males. Other races and sexes beyond female elves, as far as I know, have not been tested. A thorough survey of what works could be very informative.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WielderofGigantus View Post
    Wait, so male humans don't have the high kick raised up before they do the spin kick? Damn those men!
    Wow, yeah...no wonder I've gotten in arguments with people over this. My Human and Half-Elf Cleave/Great Cleave attacks have been doing quick Cleave/Cleave animations for a long time now, and as such I think this plays well into a Shintao Build with Overwhelming Critical...and people on the forums come up and moan about the slow Great Cleave animation and I always wondered what kind of crazy they had!

    Never thought about there being racial animation differences...that 'split kick' animation BLOWS!

  16. #16
    The Hatchery whomhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rimble View Post
    Wow, yeah...no wonder I've gotten in arguments with people over this. My Human and Half-Elf Cleave/Great Cleave attacks have been doing quick Cleave/Cleave animations for a long time now, and as such I think this plays well into a Shintao Build with Overwhelming Critical...and people on the forums come up and moan about the slow Great Cleave animation and I always wondered what kind of crazy they had!

    Never thought about there being racial animation differences...that 'split kick' animation BLOWS!
    So this is true for half-elves as well? Is your character a male? Also, can you test if GC produces off-hand attacks?

  17. #17
    Community Member BladeZero's Avatar
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    I noticed this on my human female monk splash a few months ago and tested it on all of the races I have access to (no halfies but I think a guildie helped me a bit) I may have forgotten one but I'm pretty sure it was only human females, halfling females, and elves (male and female) have the kip-up leap spin for the great cleave animation. It appears that this longer animation is supposed to be the one for whirlwind attack and is just attached to several of the race/sex combos erroneously. I bug reported back when I first noticed it, but haven't seen any mention of it on the known issues list.
    Last edited by BladeZero; 01-12-2013 at 04:02 AM.

  18. #18
    The Hatchery whomhead's Avatar
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    I have now tested this thoroughly with all of the races I have access to. The OP has been updated accordingly. I could still use some help from someone who can test with Half-elves.

  19. #19
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    I just tested my male half-elf and I confirm that offhand procs with great cleave (unarmed). I also got a triple hits on the dummy so I would assumed that doublestrike also works on great cleave.

  20. #20
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    Default femal 1/2 elf

    Tested with female helf on dummy, getting offhand procs and double strikes. Granted testing was done on one dummy kill, but done with only great cleaves.

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