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  1. #1
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    Default Help me build a super rogue!!

    So I'm gonna TR in a month or two into a 36 pt build toon. I really want to play a 36 ptb rogue. What I wantr to be able to do is ALWAYS find secret doors, do traps, hide and sneak pretty well, others not too major. And be able to be one hell of a damage dealer. Is it possible to combine these two pretty well? or do I have to choose between one or the other?

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    The vast majority of traps can be handled by any rogue with full skill points, greater heroism, and the best trapping gear they can find (including +5s). Exceptions include the Cabal chest, but most people don't go for it anyhow. And it kinda sucks, lootwise.

    As far as damage, if you have the max twf line, you could pretty much wield +1 longswords and still do credible damage.
    Cannith, Slicing Blow. Vilenna (18/1/1 Clonkard), Marvala (20 monk), Phrenia (19/1 rogue/fighter), Malchara (12/6/2 AA), Denaria (18/2 ...wonk?)

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    I was thinking of going the khopesh route. Is it worth it or do I need those slots for other feats/enhancements?

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    Currently, the end-game weapons for rogues do not include any khopesh. You may reconsider whether you really want to ues up a feat slot for kophesh proficiency.

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    Ok this is gonna make me sound really noobish, but what is meant by "end game"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by skaught78 View Post
    So I'm gonna TR in a month or two into a 36 pt build toon. I really want to play a 36 ptb rogue. What I wantr to be able to do is ALWAYS find secret doors, do traps, hide and sneak pretty well, others not too major. And be able to be one hell of a damage dealer. Is it possible to combine these two pretty well? or do I have to choose between one or the other?
    You can get what you want for rogue skills without even going pure rogue. I have a 12 ranger/7 rogue/1 monk who self buffs to 80+ in all rogue skills.

  7. #7
    Community Member Mercureal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skaught78 View Post
    Ok this is gonna make me sound really noobish, but what is meant by "end game"?
    He's probably talking about the weapons from the 'Caught in the Web' raid. I haven't seen any in-game yet, but the DDOwiki descriptions sound pretty good. However, the point he made really depends on whether you want to base your choice of weapons on a small set of raidloot items. Khopesh is a perfectly viable choice - however, its also true that rogues can do very good damage with any weapon, since most of their damage comes from their sneak attack.
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  8. #8
    Community Member xSeverinax's Avatar
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    Whatever you do, don't say I am not trap specced, I am a melee based rogue. Particularly when you join a party and are a level higher than the party melee with less than half his HP. Even traps at end game can be done with a 2 level rogue splash if you keep your DD / search maxed, keep the best tools / dd and search items, and get action boosts, GH potions etc. End game means the higher levels - previously above 16, but now we have levels up to 25 so not sure if the definition of end game has changed. Generally level 16 - 20 for the shroud and higher level quests and previously epics.

    Never thought I would ever hear someone say that, but a 6/1 rogue/monk just did after joining a trap heavy lvl 6 quest. Luckily we had a hire to do the traps and locks for us.
    Thelanis;

  9. #9
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skaught78 View Post
    So I'm gonna TR in a month or two into a 36 pt build toon. I really want to play a 36 ptb rogue. What I wantr to be able to do is ALWAYS find secret doors, do traps, hide and sneak pretty well, others not too major. And be able to be one hell of a damage dealer. Is it possible to combine these two pretty well? or do I have to choose between one or the other?
    What you want to do is possible.

    A build with 36 build points has a lot of options. But, you should understand the skills and the base stats that affect them.

    Spot is a WIS skill. This is used in order to get the message that you sense something or to get the message that a trap is near. If you want to get every secret door without already knowing where they are (that is, character knowledge instead of player knowledge) then you want to invest skill points into Spot and also have a reasonable WIS score.

    Search is an INT skill. So is Disable Device. Search is a fail/succeed skill. Either you do have enough search and you find the trap or you do not. Disable Device is a d20 check. You can succeed sometimes and fail other times. You want to invest skill points in both and have a decent INT score.

    Hide and Move Silently are both DEX skills. At the moment one is broken and barely (or perhaps does not at all) affects your ability to sneak. I can't remember which one. But, like the other skills, you want to put skill points here and you want a decent DEX score.

    Damage is not a skill, per se, but the function of several factors. The two things that affect damage the most for a rogue are STR and sneak attack. All rogues gain additional sneak attack damage as they increase in level. But, rogues who use the Assassin prestige enhancements get additional sneak attack damage. At epic levels there is an epic feat, Improved Sneak Attack, that requires a high DEX score (DEX 21). So, for damage you want both STR and DEX and you want to select the Assassin prestige enhancement.

    So, what does that mean to you?

    Well, you cannot do everything all of the time. I've already identified 4 stats that you don't want to ignore entirely and we all know that CON is not a dump stat either. So, you have a bit of balancing to do.

    Fortunately, you are working with 36 build points. What we don't know is your tome use. Have you used tomes or do you have them available? This makes a big difference because it helps determine where to put your initial build points and where to put stat increases as you are leveling up.

    We also don't know what race you prefer or what races you have available.

    What I am going to suggest to you assumes that you have half-elf as a race choice. IMO this race is currently the best choice for most builds. It also assumes you have used or will buy from Turbine (or otherwise come to possess) +3 tomes. The build assumes that if you have not already used tomes that you will use +1, +2 and +3 tomes in sequence at levels 3, 7 and 11.

    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.01
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Rogue Build
    Level 20 True Neutral Half-Elf Male
    (20 Rogue) 
    Hit Points: 222
    Spell Points: 0 
    BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
    Fortitude: 9
    Reflex: 17
    Will: 7
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (36 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             17                    24
    Dexterity            17                    21
    Constitution         14                    17
    Intelligence         10                    13
    Wisdom               10                    13
    Charisma              8                    11
    
    Tomes Used
    +1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
    +1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
    +1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
    +1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
    +1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
    +1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
    +2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
    +3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
    +3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11
    +3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
    +3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
    +3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 11
    +3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                     Base Skills         Modified Skills
    Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
    Balance               3                    16
    Bluff                 2                    11
    Concentration         2                     4
    Diplomacy            -1                     1
    Disable Device        4                    25
    Haggle               -1                    19
    Heal                  0                     2
    Hide                  7                    29
    Intimidate           -1                     1
    Jump                  3                    13
    Listen                0                     2
    Move Silently         7                    29
    Open Lock             7                    14
    Perform              n/a                    n/a
    Repair                0                     2
    Search                4                    25
    Spot                  4                    25
    Swim                  3                     8
    Tumble                4                    14
    Use Magic Device      3                    24
    
    Level 1 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Half-Elf Dilettante) Half-Elf Dilettante: Ranger
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    
    
    Level 2 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 3 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 4 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 5 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 6 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
    
    
    Level 7 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 8 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 9 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 10 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
    
    
    Level 11 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 12 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 13 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Opportunist
    
    
    Level 14 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 15 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 16 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Crippling Strike
    
    
    Level 17 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 18 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Precision
    
    
    Level 19 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Skill Mastery
    
    
    Level 20 (Rogue)
    You can see that I raised some skills every level and others I raised only to a certain point. I did this mostly because added points in that skill are going to give only marginal benefits. I also put the last stat increase at L20 into DEX in order to get to the 21 DEX required for Improved Sneak Attack, which you can then take at L21.

    After that, it is all about gear. Always use the best gear available to your level.

    I also did not flesh out enhancements or select khopesh as an exotic weapon. If you want khopesh take it instead of precision. Precision is a nice feat but rogues have other ways to negate fortification, so it is the most expendable feat for you.

    You can also go human with this build. Doing so gives you an extra feat -- letting you take both khopesh and precision. What it gives up is the ranger dilettante.

    IMO the ranger dilettante is worth having as it opens up a variety of wands for you to use -- most important early are cure wands which are dose-for-dose cheaper than cure potions. Edit: Note, however, that I invest in Use Magic Device and by L20 you will be able to use most wands and scrolls anyway. And, with human you gain an additional skill point per level as well as the extra feat at L1. Either is a good choice and either uses the same stat distribution to start.

    In any case, good luck.
    Last edited by Therigar; 01-06-2013 at 09:55 PM. Reason: spelling, added info on human race choice

  10. #10
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    Therigar's suggested build is very solid. If you are aiming for end game (i.e. level 25 and Caught in the Web), you may consider swapping out khopesh and improved critical - slashing proficiencies then (of course at a cost) and using piercing weapons (Balizarde (rapier), Celestia (shortsword) and Agony (dagger)).

  11. #11
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shunlee123 View Post
    Therigar's suggested build is very solid. If you are aiming for end game (i.e. level 25 and Caught in the Web), you may consider swapping out khopesh and improved critical - slashing proficiencies then (of course at a cost) and using piercing weapons (Balizarde (rapier), Celestia (shortsword) and Agony (dagger)).
    Well, there is a reason I did not include khopesh.

    But, I went IC:slash on the assumption that OP wanted them.

  12. #12
    Community Member Meetch1972's Avatar
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    Mostly rogue could be done with something like the Hurtlocker build - Rogue (for acrobat 2) 13, Pally 6, Monk 1 I think ? I had one a few updates ago - viability from update to update may vary. The toon was immune to everything when geared properly - the nerfing of FoM changes things up a bit though.

    With a good starting INT, a +3 tome and the best gear for level, they can get all the hidden stuff and traps that matter, except maybe for that one in Cabal...
    Goe ahed... korekt mah spelin'.

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    Wow. Very helpful everyone! Especially therigar!
    I do have +3 tomes already on all stats except CHA, which has a +2 tome.

    I was thinking of doing a halfling rogue, but the extra feat from human, and the dilettant feat from half elf are very tempting. But something about halfling just calls me! Would it work good for this build? What benefits would it have, and what weaknesses would it have?

    Also, in speaking of STR, DEX, and CON:

    In Therigars build he goes 17, 17, 14 respectively. I'm thinking of the weapon finesse feat which allows the DEX modifier instead of the STR modifier. But I don't fully understand what this means.

    Would I get a benefit from taking a point or two away from STR, and putting them in DEX and CON (for more HP) and then taking weapon finesse?

    Also only a 10 in INT! I was thinking of jacking that all the way to like 16 or so?

  14. #14
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skaught78 View Post
    Wow. Very helpful everyone! Especially therigar!
    I do have +3 tomes already on all stats except CHA, which has a +2 tome.

    I was thinking of doing a halfling rogue, but the extra feat from human, and the dilettant feat from half elf are very tempting. But something about halfling just calls me! Would it work good for this build? What benefits would it have, and what weaknesses would it have?

    Also, in speaking of STR, DEX, and CON:

    In Therigars build he goes 17, 17, 14 respectively. I'm thinking of the weapon finesse feat which allows the DEX modifier instead of the STR modifier. But I don't fully understand what this means.

    Would I get a benefit from taking a point or two away from STR, and putting them in DEX and CON (for more HP) and then taking weapon finesse?

    Also only a 10 in INT! I was thinking of jacking that all the way to like 16 or so?
    Everything is a trade-off. You wrote that you wanted to do really good damage. The best damage you are going to do will come from a STR build.

    Choosing Weapon Finesse means that you will allow your DEX to dictate your to hit numbers instead of your STR if your DEX is higher. But, except for a hand full of weapons, your damage will still come from STR. Weapon Finesse also limits the weapons you can choose to light weapons and rapiers. So, no khopesh (khopeshes, khopeshi???).

    If you went with halfling you would have 2 less STR to start (which is only 1 point of damage) and 2 more DEX. That is a bit of overkill on the DEX if you have the +3 tomes. INT sitting at 10 is sufficient to get you almost all of the skills that will be needed. Pushing INT higher is not really necessary. But, if you went halfling you could take the 5 build points used to move DEX from 15 to 17 on the half-elf (17 to 19 on the halfling) and put them instead into other stats.

    FWIW, no need to go to +3 tome on CHA. The +2 tome you've used is fine. In fact, you could have skipped tomes on CHA entirely. I just applied tomes there because I put them on every stat.

    So, here comes the real do I or don't I moment. If you are not going to go for maximum INT for best possible Assassin II assassination DC then there is no reason to have INT very high. If you are going to maximize INT for the assassination DC then there is no reason to have high STR or one of Power Attack/Precision.

    The high INT build is not for the faint of heart. It is not a rough and tumble, best damage build. It relies on assassination but otherwise falls behind in damage where you are not instantly killing the target. From your initial post I have assumed that this is not the best course for you. Instead, the more traditional STR focused rogue seems most likely to be what you are looking for.

    If you really want the best assassin in the game then you follow Mellkor's excellent Master Assassin build. But, that isn't what you asked for -- or at least, not what I understood you to be asking for in your initial post.
    Last edited by Therigar; 01-07-2013 at 09:44 AM.

  15. #15
    Community Member Miow's Avatar
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    Currently lvl 14 on my human 36pt build 12 rgr/7 bard/1 rog, no problems with traps at all and fun to boot.

    I like human over hafling so much more btw versatility(skills,saves,damage)/extra skill point/extra feat it all adds up. (Plus i get access to rogue haste boost with just the 1 level of rogue.)

    So many viable fun roguish builds out there.

  16. #16
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    What content are you planning to run, daily, when you get to cap?

    The right build for farming EN/EH quests is very different from a raid boss beater or an elite rogue tackling the hardest content the game can offer.

    If you are farming EN/EH, forget assassinate and survivability go for all out DPS with dreadnought. You can't be trash DPS without master's blitz and assassinate is too slow when everyone is doing insane damage.

    If you are raiding, Go shadowdancer and maximize your fortification bypass stuff. This destiny has good built-in damage mitigation, but keep your HP and healing amp high. You don't want the party leaders and healers to complain.

    If you are doing Epic Elite stuff, go whatever way you play the best as. I have seen good assassinate rogues, good dreadnoughts, decent GMoFs and even good FotW stun/trip bots.
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  17. #17
    Community Member Magic_Emperor's Avatar
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    What are these tomes?
    And where do you get them?

  18. #18
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Emperor View Post
    What are these tomes?
    And where do you get them?
    Tomes are magical books that you find in quests or sometimes receive as end rewards. They increase a specific stat permanently. Only the highest value applies and they do not stack on one another. So, a +1 STR tome will not stack on another +1 STR tome and a +2 STR tome will replace the +1 STR tome you might have used already.

    Tomes have minimum levels based on the + value. +1 is ML3, +2 is ML7, +3 is ML11, +4 is ML15. I've never pulled a +5 tome but is should be ML19 but may be ML20.

    A tome does not require that you have had a lower value before using. All you need is the level requirement.

    You can also get tome upgrades. These work off of a tome you've already used. A +2 upgrade will increase a +1 tome to a +2 tome. You cannot use the upgrade unless you've used the appropriate lower level tome -- or used enough upgrades to qualify.

    For example, a character can use a +1 tome at ML3. Later they use a +2 upgrade. After that they find a +3 upgrade. They can use the +2 upgrade and go from +1 to +2 on the stat. But, they cannot use the +3 upgrade until they use the +2 upgrade because you cannot go directly from +1 to +3 using the upgrade tomes.

    Confusing? Sorry, tried my best to explain it.

    Edit: It should be mentioned that +1 thru +3 tomes are available in the DDO store as are upgrade tomes. Turbine did make +4 tomes available for a short time and I suspect they will be back from time to time as well.

  19. #19
    The Hatchery DarkForte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    IMO the ranger dilettante is worth having as it opens up a variety of wands for you to use -- most important early are cure wands which are dose-for-dose cheaper than cure potions. Edit: Note, however, that I invest in Use Magic Device and by L20 you will be able to use most wands and scrolls anyway. And, with human you gain an additional skill point per level as well as the extra feat at L1. Either is a good choice and either uses the same stat distribution to start.
    Not sure if you still can do that, but having a +3 wis tome and starting with a 10 wisdom, you used to be able to switch in monk dilettante at level 11. Monk dilettante enables 20% more healing amp, which is awesome for any melee.
    Nerdrage/Endgame ~ Sarlona
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  20. #20
    Community Member squishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skaught78 View Post
    Wow. Very helpful everyone! Especially therigar!
    I do have +3 tomes already on all stats except CHA, which has a +2 tome.

    I was thinking of doing a halfling rogue, but the extra feat from human, and the dilettant feat from half elf are very tempting. But something about halfling just calls me! Would it work good for this build? What benefits would it have, and what weaknesses would it have?

    Also, in speaking of STR, DEX, and CON:

    In Therigars build he goes 17, 17, 14 respectively. I'm thinking of the weapon finesse feat which allows the DEX modifier instead of the STR modifier. But I don't fully understand what this means.

    Would I get a benefit from taking a point or two away from STR, and putting them in DEX and CON (for more HP) and then taking weapon finesse?

    Also only a 10 in INT! I was thinking of jacking that all the way to like 16 or so?
    I have a halfling finess build. You will NOT rack up huge numbers as far as DPS. They are sorta "meh" unless you can get decent backstabs. If you want to go halfling, take the Assassin PrE, and get the Assassinate ability. Nothing says DPS better that a one-shot-one-kill ability.

    I'm sure it is possible to somehow squeak out a halfling STR build, but it won't include weapons finesse. Your focus at that point is not on raw DPS numbers, but weapons abilities like disruption, banishing, and so on. Early on Undead will be your biggest headache. Later, when you dual-wield disruptors, they won't be sudh a hassle.

    As for trapper gear, farm Crystal Cove for the spyglass trinket, as this gets you a little over halfway to decent trapping via equipment. It's one of the best trapper items out there.
    Antipan, Pandargon, Pandolin, Panifin, Panmorgan, Pangrael, and all other things "pan-ed"...

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