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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropyspinner View Post
    1 Yes. It's not the roll-winners fault you did not realize it sooner.
    2 Yes. You run it enough you'll get whatever citw weapon you need.
    3 Yes. Pretty much.
    4 Yes. Bending, twisting or creating follow-up rules is not considered fair play by some.
    5 Not in my culture.



    Yes exactly my point. You meant well but the offer was not well thought out and you got your feelings hurt. Instead of learning from your mistake you take it public and hope for a pity party.
    #3 your opinion that me asking "hey man, you going to use this bastard sword because i noticed that other dude is specced for it?" is an affront to his dignity, your a troll. No ifs ands or buts. Troll. If I cannot verify the need of the item among folks playing this game, then your standards of human courtesy and respect are way off, like don't group with my type way off. I asked that question thinking 1 of two things would happen: 1. yeah totally need it (wham bam, passed, have fun and good luck sir) or 2. Oh shoot, it was just a cosmetic bank filler, let the b-sword rogue use it (wham bam pass to the b-sword rog). Simple cordial human interaction. That dude is an uptight a-holie. And you agree with it? troll.

    Then you go on to belittle my post as fishing for a pity party. Shove off/get lost. whichever you perfer. I can vent when and where I want and I dont need you telling me im emotional looking for pity. Ill post a vent about traffic, ill post a vent about my dog's farts. Its venting, not seeking pity. g-dang trolls
    Last edited by jeremyt; 01-18-2013 at 06:04 AM.
    Reckter: 28 heroic, 3 iconic and 19 eic PLs, now a 17 art/3rog shadar-kai. Anhilliation: 3x wiz/sorc PLs, 13 epic PLs now a dwarf 17barb/3bard. . Vikzor: 2xfvs + 4x epic PL horc 19fvs 1 fighter. Rekter: 3x rog & 1 fighter + 4 epic PLs, h-orc 13 rogue 6 monk 1 druid. Veisha: 3x bard + 4 epic PLs, PDK 16 bard 4 fighter.

  2. #42
    Community Member -Satureon-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropyspinner View Post
    Yes exactly my point. You meant well but the offer was not well thought out and you got your feelings hurt. Instead of learning from your mistake you take it public and hope for a pity party.
    And hopefully also everyone happy since that event, because dropped that sword on an other raid and he got that (ofc no names).
    Both side should get rid on that, happy hunting.
    Satureon, Ranged (Pal x1, Mnk x3, Ran x3, Rog x1 8/8 lives),
    Betelgeuseon, Multitank (Ftr 2x, Barb 1x 3/10 lives),
    Androgun, Arcane (Wiz 3x, Sorc 3x, Fvs 1x 7/10 lives)
    [Saturus, 8 years old toon (Pal 1x, Ftr 1x, Mnk 3x, Rog 1x), Exterminus (Wiz 1x, Fvs 2x, Sorc 1x): on Thelanis.]
    Improvisative play preferred. No VC, because i just don't care by different reasons + honestly sometimes just need to focus anywhere else too, as i'm not the 'gnome at the basement' type 24/7-er.
    2006-2009 EU Aureon-Keeper; 2009-2013 US Thelanis; 2013- US Ghallanda;
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    Older melee 'fame': Zawabi raid solo (mod6)+(a 'bit later' in US), old Elite DA solo, VoD solo (2011), Titan raid 4 mins shortman (2011?), ToD melee duo (2012)
    Some growing Solo Achievements (EE/Raids/Max lv. Challenges; no death/no reenter/no hire/little resources)
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  3. #43
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunker View Post
    Eleven days, nah it isn't bad form. But you have to admit your post was kind of quirky to say the least.

    Your first three words were "get over it". And seeing as nobody in the thread or anyone that reads the Thelanis forums hadn't posted here in over 10 days, you have to figure the OP above all others was over it. That is until you resurrected the thread.

    I'm going to take a stab and say that is what Wruntjunior was getting at.

    -Bunk

    P.S. Either way, I thought it was funny (+1) and equally poor (-1). So, unfortunatly I cannot award any points this time.
    This is pretty much what I was saying. It's an issue that was resolved nearly two weeks ago...and someone posts to say "Get over it."?! THAT'S bad form - the two-week necro isn't necessarily, but HOW it was necro'd is.

    Side-note, I really don't know what happened well because I ignore loot drama that doesn't involve me. >_>
    Eternal Infinity: Wruntjunior ~ DI Sorc // Youngwrunt ~ Survivalist Paladin // Wruntarrow ~ Monkcher // Wruntsonmonk ~ Wis-Based Monk

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremyt View Post
    And you agree with it? troll.
    Actually I wasnt trolling at all. 11 posts in years of reading these forums....eh I suppose you've already judged me anyway. I was hoping to show you the absurdity of your post and how unnecessary it was to make your drama public. The two that have the most right to gripe about anything are the ones that rolled on it and got sucked into your drama. You may not have posted actual names but anyone with half of a spark would know who you are referring to. If I had originally meant to troll I would instead have written something along these lines, perhaps an analogy for easier understanding....

    Lets say I was dating your mom. Your mom says to you there's room in the house for only one of you. The two of us need to roll a d20 high to see who stays. We both agree. You roll a natural 20 (yesss! you say). I roll a .....5 (darn for me). Your mom turns to you and says ..."but honey, he fulfills my needs much more than you do. Maybe you should consider letting him (that would be me) stay instead." How would that make you feel?

    It no longer matters to me what you think. You're emotions have blinded you with the inability of thinking any other way, so you simply resort to name calling and accusations. Anything said will become nothing more than a lesson in frustration. Not even taking posts seriously anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    Well count one more who thinks you did the right thing and thinks it would be wonderful if more did the same.
    By the post looks like Khyber caters to those who need coddling and talking out their feelings. You may want to give them a try. Thelanis players seem to have a thicker skin and play the game quite well.


    More disturbing is the reinforcement and the enabling of such behavior in many of his posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by jeremyt View Post
    ....BS, and ef you.
    Quote Originally Posted by jeremyt View Post
    ..that is when i snapped.
    Quote Originally Posted by jeremyt View Post
    They kill for less in some cultures.
    Quote Originally Posted by jeremyt View Post
    That dude is an uptight a-holie.



    Quite the pity-party. As for me I have a date with Lolth.

  5. #45
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropyspinner View Post
    Actually I wasnt trolling at all. 11 posts in years of reading these forums....eh I suppose you've already judged me anyway. I was hoping to show you the absurdity of your post and how unnecessary it was to make your drama public. The two that have the most right to gripe about anything are the ones that rolled on it and got sucked into your drama. You may not have posted actual names but anyone with half of a spark would know who you are referring to. If I had originally meant to troll I would instead have written something along these lines, perhaps an analogy for easier understanding....

    Lets say I was dating your mom. Your mom says to you there's room in the house for only one of you. The two of us need to roll a d20 high to see who stays. We both agree. You roll a natural 20 (yesss! you say). I roll a .....5 (darn for me). Your mom turns to you and says ..."but honey, he fulfills my needs much more than you do. Maybe you should consider letting him (that would be me) stay instead." How would that make you feel?

    It no longer matters to me what you think. You're emotions have blinded you with the inability of thinking any other way, so you simply resort to name calling and accusations. Anything said will become nothing more than a lesson in frustration. Not even taking posts seriously anymore.


    By the post looks like Khyber caters to those who need coddling and talking out their feelings. You may want to give them a try. Thelanis players seem to have a thicker skin and play the game quite well.


    More disturbing is the reinforcement and the enabling of such behavior in many of his posts.









    Quite the pity-party. As for me I have a date with Lolth.
    I played on your server didnt like it and transfered my favorite character off the server.

    The ANTI-Realms FANBOI NUKE THE REALMS ITS THE ONLY REAL WAY TO BE SURE

  7. #47
    Community Member Jeremiah179's Avatar
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    Maybe rolling is not a great way to handle loot...

    Maybe - it would be easier to manage my loot is my loot, if you did not subject yourself to roll...

    Rather -

    A. if anyone wants this XX item in the chest, I do not need it....

    B. listen to the answers, ask any questions you wish. Pass to who you think was best choice.

    C. Others complain, you say... my loot is my loot. I do not usually do rolls, I make my own decisions.

    D. They do not play with you any more? Well, you do not think like them to begin with...no loss.

    E. Maybe as a last resort, you really can not choose, you say player a,b,c roll...I can not choose.

    Do not enslave yourself to live under other peoples authority, simply to have access to easier accomplishments in a game. I do not think it is worth it. If you think it IS worth it... just pass any good items to your masters then and let them make your decisions for you. Make sure when you hand it to the raid leader you state out loud to everyone:

    "My Lord, here is an item I have determined I am not worthy to select an owner for, can you make a wise distribution as you find appropriate. I only want to serve the group as long as they will have me." A bow /emote would be appropriate as well.

    Having your own integrity will group you automatically with like minded souls whom you will enjoy your time with....more.

    Rolling is a ridiculous bully system, where the people in the know have 20 ways to increase their chances - and the new person ALWAYS hands it to the wrong person... unless the mob agrees.

    ***
    All of this ASSUMES - you did not enter a group or raid or guild etc. That stated a rule that you agreed to abide to by joining such group.
    ***
    For instance, if I really really needed Crucible and could not solo it... and a group formed at a perfect time for me and allowed me to join...but posted some ridiculous rule... I would honor it in order to get my easy completion... no matter how stupid it was.

    Personally I have never had to resort to that...I am too stubborn I think and the general population sorts out those stupid rule people over time. But it would be the honourable thing to abide to anything you agree to. The secret is, do not make hasty agreements.
    Jeremiiah - Isaiiah - Zephaniiah - Ghallanda - Old Timers Guild

  8. #48
    Community Member protokon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropyspinner View Post
    Lets say I was dating your mom. Your mom says to you there's room in the house for only one of you. The two of us need to roll a d20 high to see who stays. We both agree. You roll a natural 20 (yesss! you say). I roll a .....5 (darn for me). Your mom turns to you and says ..."but honey, he fulfills my needs much more than you do. Maybe you should consider letting him (that would be me) stay instead." How would that make you feel?
    ooh if only I could fit this into my sig...

    There are so many things wrong with this example I don't even know where to start...
    Last edited by protokon; 01-20-2013 at 08:04 AM.
    Proud member of Renowned, Thelanis server.

  9. #49
    Community Member Ravelock's Avatar
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    Default your loot IS your loot...

    ...until you put it up for roll. And while it is technically still in your possession, you have communicated that it is to be given away and therefore falls into a state of "pending results of the roll limbo".

    It is crucial at this point to clearly state the terms of the roll, and then to honor those terms. In this instance, proper procedure would be to dictate terms of the roll that excluded certain classes, or a "closed roll". Your loot = your terms. Instead, you executed an "open roll." Come one, come all.

    It sounds as if the terms of the roll were stated, but you didn't like the result, so you opted to ignore the roll.

    While it feels good to ignore the terms of the open roll and pass the item along to "he who could use it better," this to me is a violation of the terms of the open roll.

    I find in favor of the original winner of the roll.
    Last edited by Ravelock; 01-20-2013 at 08:28 AM.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravelock View Post
    ...until you put it up for roll.
    Wrong. Your loot is your loot until the moment it has someone else's name on it.

    This is a fact dictated by the game mechanics, and it will remain a fact until said mechanics are changed.

  11. #51
    Community Member protokon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravelock View Post
    ...until you put it up for roll. And while it is technically still in your possession, you have communicated that it is to be given away and therefore falls into a state of "pending results of the roll limbo".

    It is crucial at this point to clearly state the terms of the roll, and then to honor those terms. In this instance, proper procedure would be to dictate terms of the roll that excluded certain classes, or a "closed roll". Your loot = your terms. Instead, you executed an "open roll." Come one, come all.

    It sounds as if the terms of the roll were stated, but you didn't like the result, so you opted to ignore the roll.

    While it feels good to ignore the terms of the open roll and pass the item along to "he who could use it better," this to me is a violation of the terms of the open roll.

    I find in favor of the original winner of the roll.
    Get over the entitlement. the loot belongs to the person who's name is next to it, until the moment that person passes it. period.

    Like it or not, that's how the game works.
    Proud member of Renowned, Thelanis server.

  12. #52
    Community Member Ravelock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protokon View Post
    Like it or not, that's how the game works.
    So...how "the game works" should negate common courtesy?

    We can't rise above "game mechanics" to achieve a higher standard of interaction/protocol?

    You can welch on your deals all day long, I suppose. But if I put something up for roll, I define and honor the terms regardless of outcome.

    "Game mechanics" should not negate integrity, as your post suggests. =)
    Last edited by Ravelock; 01-20-2013 at 12:13 PM.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viisari View Post
    Wrong. Your loot is your loot until the moment it has someone else's name on it.

    This is a fact dictated by the game mechanics, and it will remain a fact until said mechanics are changed.
    Game mechanics should not absolve someone of such accountability. When arguing right vs wrong it becomes a non-argument. There are millions in prison because of what life-mechanics allow.

    Courts often see blame in percentages. Using good forward thinking when creating rules/rolls this can be minimized.

    When rules are questioned or changed after the fact, it should come as no surprise that a person would feel unfairly treated.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropyspinner View Post
    Game mechanics should not absolve someone of such accountability. When arguing right vs wrong it becomes a non-argument. There are millions in prison because of what life-mechanics allow.

    Courts often see blame in percentages. Using good forward thinking when creating rules/rolls this can be minimized.

    When rules are questioned or changed after the fact, it should come as no surprise that a person would feel unfairly treated.
    I never said they absolve accountability, just that the loot remains yours until it has someone else's name on it.

    Personally, if I put something for a roll and then see a completely inappropriate roll for it, say a pure barbarian rolling and winning Twilight, then I will ignore that roll. I've honored such rolls too many times and they always leave a bad taste in my mouth.

    So now I just ignore such rolls even if I didn't happen to specify who could roll and who could not. My loot, my call, don't like it, don't group with me.

  15. #55
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    And that's where the drama begins. Why not avoid bad feelings and specify your criteria before the roll?
    Quote Originally Posted by Towrn
    ...when the worst thing that happens when you make a mistake at your job is someone complains on the internet, you probably care a little less!

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    And that's where the drama begins. Why not avoid bad feelings and specify your criteria before the roll?
    Because I operate under the assumption that if someone can use an item now they will roll for it, if someone can use it in next life or some **** then they will only roll for it if there's no one who actually needs it now rolling for it.

    Doing otherwise is just bad form imo, and some people will actually roll on stuff they will never plan on using.

    I don't generally bother setting such rules before announcing the roll because by far most people roll sensibly in my eyes and there's rarely any issues like this.

  17. #57
    Community Member MartinusWyllt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravelock View Post
    You can welch on your deals all day long, I suppose. But if I put something up for roll, I define and honor the terms regardless of outcome.
    How is it a "deal" that can be "welched on"? Did the OP get goods or services in exchange for a contracted good? Was there an implicit bet that the OP failed to pay?

    Do we need to all make our own "terms and conditions" aliases so that we can get people to agree before rolling?

    Maybe I don't have enough groups where rolling is automatically understood as a "free for all" where anyone is entitled to your loot because of a /roll dx. Is that the norm? The norm I generally encounter is a "need over greed" that is the unspoken social contract. Someone rolling for "greed" is breaking that contract and is completely not entitled to anyone's loot.

    Isn't the only absolute is that if it drops in your name it is yours?

  18. #58
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    A contract is only legally enforceable if, amongst other things including an intention to create legal relations, there is 'consideration' from both ends.

    Rather than meaning 'thinking about it adequately', what 'consideration' means is that both parties are exchanging something. i.e. you have to be giving something from your end too.

    Obviously that's totally inapplicable in the case of ddo since no one is intending to create legal relations, but I like to think the notion that "no rights or legitimate claims of grievance arise if you're just trying to get a freebie" is a good one. And something that reasonable people should bear in mind if you win a /roll but the item doesn't ultimately come your way.

    Also, I totally agree with Viis that most people /roll responsibly.

    Disclaimers are all ridiculous:
    - "only roll if you will use it" is redundant and perfectly understood amongst 99.9% of the population (If I am suspicious and ask the roll winner, and they say they won't use it, then I'm skipping them and couldn't care less if they take it badly since rolling on things you don't need is super-inconsiderate.),

    - "blue bars only" is something I'd never use since I'm perfectly happy to equip someone for a TR when they finally see the spellcasting light, and "only roll if you will use it" covers other situations,

    The only disclaimer I see merit in is "everyone can roll but x terrible/rude/piking player" and that is unnecessarily antagonistic to say before-hand.

    There's only a slim chance that the excluded player will win the roll, and I'll tell them then that I'm vetoing their roll because they didn't contribute positively to the raid completion. I'll get a very similar amount of hate from them if they do win and I veto it after the fact, or if I excluded them from the roll from the get-go.

    If I wait until after the roll, then I'll avoid the drama entirely in most cases since they won't win.
    Khyber: Aggrim (Completionist!)
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    Blind insta-kills floating eye balls.

  19. #59
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    Default State the rules of the roll beforehand

    Its a really good idea to state your rules before you put it up for roll. If you want a real user of the loot, say "only for people that are going to use it, this is up for roll".

    The problem is when you say "roll", then start asking questions later, you are just asking for trouble.
    RTFM on Khyber

  20. #60
    Community Member MartinusWyllt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machination View Post
    Its a really good idea to state your rules before you put it up for roll. If you want a real user of the loot, say "only for people that are going to use it, this is up for roll".

    The problem is when you say "roll", then start asking questions later, you are just asking for trouble.
    Sure, and we can make sure people intending to roll type "Yes" after pasting the "Terms and Conditions" before rolling to ensure there is no confusion.

    ...or I can just pass it to the first person that asks about it, move on and skip rolling entirely. I don't like wasting time over loot but some people might enjoy playing Storage Wars Online, no judgement.

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