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  1. #1
    Community Member Jay203's Avatar
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    Default Ranger: why are they lacking?

    so apparently rangers are practically deem worthless if they have to choose between melee spec or range spec for the free feats?

    why? is it the stupid feat requirements of Tempest?
    you people think Rangers will make a comeback with the enhancement pass?
    PS: Greensteel RUINED the game! and you all know it!
    less buffing, more nerfing!!!
    to make it easier for those of you that wants to avoid me in game, all my characters are in "Bladesworn Mercenaries"

  2. #2
    Community Member Bacab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay203 View Post
    so apparently rangers are practically deem worthless if they have to choose between melee spec or range spec for the free feats?

    why? is it the stupid feat requirements of Tempest?
    you people think Rangers will make a comeback with the enhancement pass?
    Ranger attempts to be DPS...

    Here are their problems...

    No class toughness enhancements...

    Tempest requires too many "flavor" feats on a class that does not get a ton of free feats (FTR or MNK do)

    Every other melee class not named Paladin simply outclasses Ranger.
    Barb gets Frenzy Berserker
    FIghter gets Stallwart and Kensei
    MNK gets faster attack speed and all those MNK goodies
    ROG gets Mechanic (better ranged dps when you count sneak attack)..Assassin is better melee...and that whole traps thing

    Tempest needs to go back to the 10% alaclarity!
    Bacab Warforged 18 Arty (Active) Hjealer Dwarven Battle Cleric 10CLR/1FTR
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  3. #3
    Community Member Mastikator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay203 View Post
    so apparently rangers are practically deem worthless if they have to choose between melee spec or range spec for the free feats?

    why? is it the stupid feat requirements of Tempest?
    you people think Rangers will make a comeback with the enhancement pass?
    No, because there's not going to be an enhancement pass.

    I think it's mainly because most rangers insist on only being melee or ranged when they get free feats to both.
    That which does not kill you gives you experience points.

    (Fighter->Fighter->Fighter->Monk->Monk->Barbarian->Paladin->Ranger)

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post

    I think it's mainly because most rangers insist on only being melee or ranged when they get free feats to both.
    This three times over. I have seen too many rangers that either don't even carry melee weapons xor don't carry any bows. Then tempests try and play their toon like it's Kensei or barb and the the AAs play like that bow is nailed to their palms.

    When a ranger is played like a ranger, it's a really nice class. Self buffs, ok saves, full BAB, cure wounds wands use, plenty of skillpoints, castable resists and FoM. Good melee and ranged options. It's a great class for beginners and/or soloers that can not afford tomes or don't have good gear. It's very viable for splashing (e.g. monk, rogue or fighter).

    It's those same people that tried to play their druid like a sorc and got disappointed.

  5. #5
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    Hi,

    I think the feat and AP costs for tempest and AA are a little steep for what you get. At least for tempests some of those feats were recently made a little more useful.

    But I do like rangers anyway. The class has a lot to offer, when you can get outside the e-peen mentality where the characters that give the biggest possible numbers must be the best. It has some depth, it's versatile, and endgame rangers have a lot of useful options from the epic destinies. Plus so much of what you can do in the game comes from how you play, not what you play.

    If you have the patience and understanding to build, gear and properly play a ranger it can be a very useful asset to a party. I'm still enjoying the class after eight lives of it, and it's always nice on those occasions when people I group with come to realise that a ranger is not necessarily a waste of a party slot. And it's just as good seeing someone else prove that too.

    Thanks.
    Astrican on Khyber

  6. #6
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    i love Rangers as a class. always have always will. but i have to agree that i like the older variants of the tempest pre that gave atkspeed, then the current one. although my new ranger im playing at cap is starting to stack quite a decent ammoun of PRR(no thanks to the ranger class, that should be noted). he is still alot weaker then a properly played monk and im not going to nit pick betwen rangers fighter and barbs . rangers got a ton of survivability its only fair that those classes outdmg rangers. but the current number crunching that they are getting outclassed by is mad, i guess im still stuck onthat godly 6 ranger split.

    i guess there will always be someone who gets the short stick (not talking races lol warforged) but it used to be rogue's(when 18/2 wiz/rog splits where all the rage [not that long ago]) and such that where auto declained in a pug simply for being a rog, but nowdays its rangers its almost silly. i practicly have to beg people to let me join their raids nowdays when im playing my tempest ranger mainly because they know i dont have top notch dps i dont have immortal status AC and they are trying to avoid a kiteing agro magnet with 190hp hehe
    sure il make my saves but daymn its almost like playing a 4/6/10 rog/sorc/fighter atm xD

    you have to roll with the punches and learn to embrace alto-holism i still love my rangers and i play them often but they aint as usefull as other classes atm

    if the rangers or namely the tempest pre is going to be viable again they need to up the bonuses from tempest 3. compared to other class 3 pre's tempest is probly the worst one imho if they buff the lower ones we will just see monster builds deluxe

    edit: some of the good things about sub-optimal dps is that atm a tempest almost never steal agro from a tank build :P nonstop blending action. meep
    Last edited by Tokeri; 01-05-2013 at 10:47 AM.

  7. #7
    Community Member PNellesen's Avatar
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    Just about my favorite class is a Half-Elf 18 Ranger/1 Rogue/1 Fighter with Cleric Dilettante. Traps, locks, evasion, TWF for free(ish), haste boost, Manyshot, Ram's Might, Divine scrolls (Heal) with no UMD AND FoM? Sign me up! Every time I think about running a fighter or a barb I think "but who will give me FoM if I'm soloing?" and go Ranger instead (yeah, FoM's usefulness has been greatly reduced, but when you do need it, you REALLY need it...)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ertay View Post
    While they were at it though, the devs decided to go on an incredible nerfhammer rampage and left nothing in their wake standing...

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacab View Post

    No class toughness enhancements...
    This is absolute nonsense. Most of the rangers at cap now are running around with 800+ HP and 20% damage mitigation from PRR while TWFing.

    The lack of toughness enhancements is meaningless at this point, enough so that in this difficult world of picking feats I'd even put Toughness on the table if a better option presents itself..

    I've got both a near maxed out Tempest and a near maxed out Khopesh Kensai III. I'm very familiar with what each class can and cannot do. The pure raw carnage of a Kensai Master's Blitzing its way through a quest is awesome, until you have to drink a silver flame pot and run SSSSLLLLLLOOOOOOOOWWWWW as hell for 30 seconds. My Tempest can hit a 300+ point CSW and keep going at full speed.

    it's looking like tempests put out about 85% as much DPS as a Kensai all things being equal (this is NOT thoroughly tested, mostly anecdotal). Tempests can self heal and have a ranged option. Those are the tradeoffs.
    Last edited by Ape_Man; 01-04-2013 at 09:27 AM.
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  9. #9
    Community Member ferd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    No, because there's not going to be an enhancement pass.

    Wrong. It was posted here on the forums, we WILL see the system get an overhaul. And early 2013 was the targeted time frame.


    OP, as for rangers.
    1st you must understand the initial concept. they are meant as a supportive AND main melee type of PC (player character)
    Jack of all trades and master of none is how they can best be explained.

    When used properly for multi-classing, they provide enough class granted abilities, to help you spend APs as you need for the builds we've seen posted here.

    When going "pure" builds. you HAVE to focus on specific traits to bring them to the front.

    I spent a long time working on a premier tempest build, and found a combination, that still kicks arse, even with the recent combat and ac changes.
    The addition of Primal Avatar destiny that they can use is ok, but still not the best, and hopefully a few tweaks here and there, to both the class and that destiny would change my opinion on that.

    From what I've seen with ranged spec'ed toons, is people tend to ignore the melee and survivability side, and that gives them a bad rap. also, as stated by a few devs, the complexity of coding for ranged attacks is huge, and has been a deterrent from major changes being made as of late.

    Unfortunately, the class is in need of the over-haul the enhancement pass will bring, to allow better use of it's given attributes.


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  10. #10
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    The "good" classes are all excel in one or more areas. In some cases, classes excel in nearly every area, but as long as a class does at least one thing very well, they aren't necessarily considered "gimp"

    Have a look at ranger.

    Ranged DPS: It's good (downright amazing during many shot), but other builds like monkcher or even a pure or nearly pure fighter beat rangers in the ranged DPS department. Sorcerers are arguably better ranged DPS while also bringing a whole toolbox of other useful spells and abilities as well.

    Melee DPS: Passable at best. In the past before many of the other prestiges, they were considered top DPS. Then came twf nerfs combined with new prestiges for fighters and barbs. This double whammy hurt rangers big time. While their melee ability is still decent, it's not top tier any more. Whatever DPS a melee ranger could do, is done better by another class with similar gear.

    Tricks and Tactics: Both fighters and monks can make great use of tactics and even gain bonuses due to their prestige lines or just because of the nature of the class. Barbarians with massive strength can stun very well. Rangers, while they could use stun, have to try harder to hit the DC's that come easily to other classes. The ranger spell list (other than buffs and heals) is very weak. No offensive spells of note (not expected either) and very narrow crowd control even if you were to be wisdom based, which isn't a great idea on a pure ranger currently.

    Healing: Self healing is reasonable and with a small amount of gear and effort, can be quite good. You really have to at least build slightly for it, whether it's adding a metamagic or building for healing amp or slotting spell power somewhere, or a combination of all.

    Conclusion: Pure and nearly pure Rangers are a DPS class which does not excel in that department compared to Sorcerers/Wizards (ranged) or Barbarians/Fighters (melee). This might be alright IF they brought other tricks to the table, but unfortunately, they are lacking there as well. Both rangers and paladins suffer this same fate currently. The easy solution would be to give them a DPS boost somewhere in the enhancement pass, but I feel that's not the right way to go.

    Enhance a ranger's repertoire by adding useful utility abilities that add more to a party than just MOAR DAMAGE! Give snipers a ranged dex based assassinate type ability. Tempests should swing faster than a monk, though not necessarily harder than a barb. Expand the ranger spell list to include more great utility spells to help the group. Self buffs like Ram's Might are great, but give rangers something that adds to the party as a whole to make them a more well rounded party member.
    Last edited by redspecter23; 01-04-2013 at 10:25 AM.
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  11. #11
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    The game has changed; I'm not sure rangers and paladins are as far behind as they once were. They could use a boost, but we shouldn't aim to make the differences between fighters, barbs, rangers and paladins more vanilla.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  12. #12
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacab View Post
    Tempest requires too many "flavor" feats on a class that does not get a ton of free feats (FTR or MNK do)
    Yeah, apart from Bow STR, TWF, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Manyshot, ITWF, GTWF, and Imp Prec Shot, rangers don't get squat!



    I'll concede Diehard isn't much of a bonus, though.

    Rgrs have never been a minmax DPS class (tho the nerfs to Tempest I & III really hurt them); their strength lies in their versatility - no other class* gets their mix of melee, ranged, and survivability (buffs, self-heals, Evasion). Part of being a good ranger is knowing when to switch tactics & pull a different tool out of your toolbox.

    *I've been experimenting with melee/ranged Artificers to try to come up with an arcane counterpart to rgrs, but with limited results. I may be trying to pound a square peg into a round hole again...

  13. #13
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    Default Womp

    Really ??? Rangers are good at ranged but not the best ! Rangers are ok at melee no where near the best !!

    So what do you get when your doing both ...... vanilla dps . So it really doesnt matter if you many shot then melee or vice versa or any routine of the both .

    Problem is they don't know how to balance it . Rangers enhancment system is the only way to balance it imo , 90 percent of the power on a ranged or melee needs to come from the enhancments as feats won't do enough .

    Hopefully the tree system will take care of that . I could see how that would work out .

  14. #14
    Community Member noinfo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay203 View Post
    so apparently rangers are practically deem worthless if they have to choose between melee spec or range spec for the free feats?

    why? is it the stupid feat requirements of Tempest?
    you people think Rangers will make a comeback with the enhancement pass?
    It really does come down to enhancements.
    Once the rangers ruled due to the tempest pre compared to other classes:

    nerf to tempest 1 alacrity, then shield bonus
    hp became more important (rangers get no toughness bonus druids do, fs do but rangers don't?)
    wider range of mobs now restrict FE bonus more
    Stronger PRE for other melee classes
    Self healing is well below that of divines who can melee about as well remember rangers dont get haste or damage boosts.
    Monk splash death
    Ac restructure
    Lack of any tactics

    Basically they have been proxy nerfed to death. Yeah they can be fun but currently don't think a tempest is even close in the dps race.

    The small amount they have shown for enhancement pass is promising but seriously in the mean time they could have given a bit of life to them by:

    1. give them haste boost
    2. give them toughness enhancements equal to druid
    3. tactics bonus vs FE


    Edit and some sort of dodge bonus, monks get a huge one, rogues and barbs do as well.
    Last edited by noinfo; 01-04-2013 at 12:09 PM.
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  15. #15
    Community Member noinfo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    This is absolute nonsense. Most of the rangers at cap now are running around with 800+ HP and 20% damage mitigation from PRR while TWFing.

    The lack of toughness enhancements is meaningless at this point, enough so that in this difficult world of picking feats I'd even put Toughness on the table if a better option presents itself..
    Not true. Lack of toughness is valid in latter heroic and still in epic levels. Those 800 hp more than likely include being in FOTW, probably with the rage boost and wearing GS item.

    Being able to drop a GS hp item slot is a big deal.
    Milacias of Kyber

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  16. #16
    Community Member Fedora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by murf201 View Post
    Rangers enhancment system is the only way to balance it imo , 90 percent of the power on a ranged or melee needs to come from the enhancments as feats won't do enough .

    Hopefully the tree system will take care of that . I could see how that would work out .
    Agree. I love Rangers (and Paladins, I'm a glutton for punishment I guess) but whenever I go through the build template I end up going "meh" after level 12 or so on the enhamcements. Only things worthwhile after that seem to be Ranger Dex and Tempest III.

  17. #17
    Community Member Mastikator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferd View Post

    Wrong. It was posted here on the forums, we WILL see the system get an overhaul. And early 2013 was the targeted time frame.
    It was also targeted for the MotU expansion, soon enough we'll get word that the enhancement pass is being pushed into the summer, and so on.
    That which does not kill you gives you experience points.

    (Fighter->Fighter->Fighter->Monk->Monk->Barbarian->Paladin->Ranger)

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacab View Post
    Tempest requires too many "flavor" feats on a class that does not get a ton of free feats (FTR or MNK do)
    Rangers get 9 bonus feats. They just don't get to pick them, but even just the TWF free feats with no DEX req is comparable to monk bonus feats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    No, because there's not going to be an enhancement pass.
    Quote please. If it's been cancelled I missed it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay203 View Post
    so apparently rangers are practically deem worthless if they have to choose between melee spec or range spec for the free feats?

    why? is it the stupid feat requirements of Tempest?
    you people think Rangers will make a comeback with the enhancement pass?
    If the enhancement pass goes through as suggested freeing up the current tempest feat prereq's will be a big bonus all by itself. I think they are in for a decent boost.
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  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    It was also targeted for the MotU expansion, soon enough we'll get word that the enhancement pass is being pushed into the summer, and so on.
    It was never targeted for the expansion, but they were hoping to release it with or close to the same time. They were still working on it a couple of weeks ago so stating it's not going to happen isn't backed up by facts and it's more like doomsaying.

    There's a lot of nice things going on in that pass so taking some extra time to do a better job and satisfy more customers doesn't seem like a bad thing to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Turbine
    a powerful ally able to play in any role that the group needs
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  20. #20
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    It's good that the classes are different. In the dps threads rangers and paladins are constantly maligned. Now for a change look through some of the lengthy byoh threads. Rangers and Paladins are revered, Barbarians are unplayable.

    As far as rangers lacking enhancements, it's kind of a good thing. My ranger is a human. Lack of class enhancements means that i can actually take all of those groovy human enhancements that are so hard to fit in on an ap starved class, like paladin.

    My human ranger has devoition 4, human heal amp 3, and empower healing metamagic. So far, have only managed to equip 10% and 20% heal amp equipment. Wearing a crafted trinket of devotion and ranged alacrity. He can heal himself for about 170 with cure serious wounds and empower healing turned on. Gets around 100 from cure moderate, and the cooldowns are low enough that you can virtually spam them back and forth.

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