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  1. #41
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefferweffer View Post
    Just to clarify, I'm the level 19 one, 17 wiz/2 rog. I have an Improved False Life item, toughness, 2 toughness enhancements, and Palemaster 2. I started with 18 CON and 18 INT (32 point build) and have a Health + 6 item. I have 342 hp. I really don't know any way to get more hp right now other than a Greater False Life item. I will get more with Palemaster III at 20 also.

    One Druid is 17, and the other is 16. I have no idea how many hps druids get per level. Are you saying that at those levels, as first lifers, they should also have more than 300 hp? I did notice that all our Cleric hirelings had more than 300 hp (levels 16-17 hirelings).

    Thanks again.
    Your HP may see you get declined from some Shroud Groups BUT for a 1st life Wiz/Rogue they're certainly way above average.

    Druids tend to do well for HP however and should have 300+ at Lvl 16/17 - You might want to talk to your friends and find out what they're missing.

    P.S. You're running Reaver's Refuge - Have you run Gianthold? 150 Argo Favour gets you an extra 10hp.

    As for the Hirelings - At Lvl 19 the only reason to use a Lvl 17 hire is for DV {unfortunately that's the last Hire with it}.
    Get your friends to bring the Lvl 16 and 17 hires with DV {They can DV you then} and you get Klin {Lvl 19}.

    Quote Originally Posted by verad View Post
    Ignore players telling you how many hp you need. Don't worry they will tell you what tshirt to wear when you wake up
    and what computer to buy and what to have for lunch if they could....

    If you had 400 hp the end result will still be the same....I had 700+ hp and run this
    quest on elite and i'm usually the lucky one who ends up kiting the boss while one of the other players does the puzzle.
    (kiting: running with boss's attention while party completes objective.) The disco balls are a pain and thats where a Paladin
    kiter shines here but as the dificulty goes up so do the needed saves. The puzzle can get lucky sometimes and almost complete
    it self....while other times the puzzle can be a pain in the ass and there is a good chance this quest is a fail. Done this quest 100+
    times and trust me there are still fail's even after that many its a challenging one.


    V
    Last time I ran Monastery - We Wiped - We then got extremely lucky and the Puzzle completed itself while we were all Soulstones!

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by stefferweffer View Post
    I guess I'm just hoping against hope that these are 3 uniquely challenging quests
    They are indeed. For first time running it going in blind, nigh impossible.

    Knowing all three quests well and how hard they all are for the inexperienced, I found your OP quite funny. No offense is intended.

    ...Reaver's Refuge...
    Already I'm thinking "this will be good."

    attempt the "Enter the Kobold" quest. Says Level 17, "Challenging". We both have Cleric hirelings
    Ha! I'm silently chuckling to myself: those poor bastards.

    Last night, we decide to try the Saomi Gardens quest instead.
    Oh lord, even worse! The ETK end fight will be a fond memory compared to this end fight.

    We are about to check wiki, when this giant Scorrow boss comes running down the hallway toward us
    Ha! I'm now silently laughing to myself, well beyond a chuckle. Too funny.

    Then my friends want to do the 3rd and final "Madness" quest, but on "Hard" (the one with a giant mindflayer at the end).
    Reading this sentence I actually, no fooling, laughed out loud.

    Great story, man. Yeah, you walked into 3 different buzzsaws, each one progressively harder than the last.

  3. #43
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaimberland View Post
    Whenever I run a quest I've never done before I read about it on wiki before I start, not at the end fight. Information is the best weapon anybody can have.
    I never read up on a quest beforehand... One of the great joys of adventuring is the rare times when you're doing a quest for the first time, and you have no idea what's around the next corner!

    But I usually solo them on normal the first time... because I want to finish as well.

    OP... the three quests you list are some of the most challenging quests in the game for a first timer. I've wiped in all three of those quests before...

    Note, you CAN release and come back in (within 5 minutes) and try the boss fight again. You can leave one person inside to hold the instance too... The adventure doesn't reset until everyone has been out for 5 minutes.

    The first time I did STK with my friends, we wiped 4-5 times before we beat that giant construct... but we kept releasing and coming back in, because we were determined to kill that sucker.
    Last edited by Thrudh; 01-04-2013 at 01:12 AM.
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    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
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    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  4. #44
    Community Member 9Crows's Avatar
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    op your experience in those 3 quest was the exact same as mine me and 2 friends with hires went in there with no knowledge of the quests all bold and cocky ..and got slaughtered many times, untill i decided that reading about them might be a good thing ...etk is still hard for some of my toons .cloak of ice(cold shield spell for umds or arcanes) the 33% fire absorb boots from sands (or cannith crafted shard )and now firebreak or cannith cloak helps alot in there

  5. #45
    Community Member ZeebaNeighba's Avatar
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    I will give you a fair warning now. The quest New Invasion, a level 19 in Shavarath, is another horribly backloaded quest like this, and it has a complicated maze to get to it so you can easily burn an hour simply getting to the end fight.

  6. #46
    Community Member PNellesen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    The first time I did STK with my friends, we wiped 4-5 times before we beat that giant construct... but we kept releasing and coming back in, because we were determined to kill that sucker.
    Oh man, I still remember the very first time I did the last STK quest. Was soloing at-level on Normal with my first life 28pt max-Dex Elf Ranger with 12 CON and no gear at all (my 2nd character) with one of the cleric hirelings. I'm not sure how long it took me to get to the end but it had been a while, but no deaths that I recall (though I could be blocking those memories ). I dropped down, parked the hireling, did what little buffing I could, and slowly inched forward. I think I jumped 3 feet in the air when the boss appeared. One thing I remember clearly was that the hireling killed him with what appeared to be Searing light - I was SOOO glad I had him along, because my feeble attempts at pew-pew and melee weren't doing much if any damage to him lol. Imagine my joy when the Ring of Feathers appeared in the chest - my very first Feather Fall item of any kind

    ETK and Monastery can be tough even when you've run them a few times. If it weren't for the great XP, I wouldn't run them at all (but boy, that XP is hard to pass up when you're trying to make that last push to 20...)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ertay View Post
    While they were at it though, the devs decided to go on an incredible nerfhammer rampage and left nothing in their wake standing...

  7. #47
    Community Member Niv-mizzet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefferweffer View Post
    It just feels like I read of people soloing these quests on Heroic Elite (or even higher), and I'm left thinking that I'm just an absolutely terrible player.
    inexperienced != terrible
    Even multi-TR-elite-streaking-completionists-from-hell die to silly things when they do a quest they don't know.
    As the joes say, knowing is half the battle.

    it sounds like your group could benefit from browsing some build advice threads, for one.

    For the ETK end fight, On normal difficulty, most pc's should have the sturdiness to be able to stand in that room for at least a little while, long enough to catch relaxed heals at least. Well built toons can even solo that fight without much sweat. You might try having a point-man with improved evasion (or just normal evasion) running in first and love-tapping many of the enemies, then staying away from the other party members.

    For the monastery boss, kite him around and abuse the ramps in his room to do so. He won't jump right off after you. Oh no, he'll politely find the path down to get to you while you head up the other side. Have someone in the middle mess with the puzzle, and voila.

    I have typed up a full report of how to handle Yaulthoon at the end of In the Flesh before, so I'll just sum-up this time. What you got killed by was an unavoidable psionic attack that he only uses at low health. Note that it is unavoidable (it even hits you through the landscape) but NOT unstoppable. Once you have him down to the last 25% or so, WATCH HIM LIKE A HAWK when he teleports. He will appear with 3 of those "taken cocoons" on the ground in front of him. You now have 10-15 seconds to break them, or the psionic attack will go off. On the plus side, if you DO break them in time, you will stun Yaulthoon AND remove his invincibility, assuming he had it on.

    Also note, charming is shockingly effective in the fight against Yaulthoon, ESPECIALLY on elite, where you can have pink-hatted beholders helping you deal with the swarms of enemies.

  8. #48
    2016 DDO Players Council kinggartk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefferweffer View Post
    Sadly, I confess that it never occured to me to try CC on that Madness quest. There was some other quest we recently did where everything in the quest was "insane" to the point that CC would not work, and something made me think it would be that way here. I really thought that these mutant Taken and Reaver things were immune to mind control stuff. My bad Next time I will definitely do that.

    One other clarification - do note that the final quest for "Madness" does NOT say "Challenging". It says Normal Difficulty, which is very misleading. If it had said "Challenging" we would have done Normal, ESPECIALLY after what we had experienced earlier on a level 17 "Challenging" one. I had pointed out about a month ago that the DEVs may want to look again at which quests have the "Challenging" labels and which do not. My suspicion is that the final quest of any "Chain" would almost always be "Challenging", and yet this is an example where the game does not say so.

    Thanks again for all the great advice and support.
    This quest seems to get significantly more difficult on Hard. A bigger difference than other quests IMO. Go back and run it again on Normal and get the chain's end reward. There is some nice gear to be had from that chain. It sounds like you just need to improve your gear and you can only do that by running and completing these higher level quests.

    You HP as a wizard is not horrible...so don't let people grief you about that. Could it be higher? Sure....but your on the right track.

    After you complete the madness chain, you might want to go back and run the full chain again and get a second end reward. Improving your gear will do nothing but help make you stronger.
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  9. #49
    Community Member fco-karatekid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefferweffer View Post
    Just to clarify, I'm the level 19 one, 17 wiz/2 rog. I have an Improved False Life item, toughness, 2 toughness enhancements, and Palemaster 2. I started with 18 CON and 18 INT (32 point build) and have a Health + 6 item. I have 342 hp. I really don't know any way to get more hp right now other than a Greater False Life item. I will get more with Palemaster III at 20 also.

    One Druid is 17, and the other is 16. I have no idea how many hps druids get per level. Are you saying that at those levels, as first lifers, they should also have more than 300 hp? I did notice that all our Cleric hirelings had more than 300 hp (levels 16-17 hirelings).

    Thanks again.
    Although HP alone were not the only reason, they were a contributing factor. Go back to Sane Asylum if you own it and grab a sustaining symbiont - GFL + exceptional constitution both help.

    Now as far as the OP is concerned - you just happened to pick three of the hardest quests to do when new - you did what everyone walking cold into these has done.

  10. #50
    Community Member fco-karatekid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jambajuicey View Post
    /insert a feeling of sorrow for some underwear! =)
    you assume a lot.

  11. #51
    Community Member honkuimushi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNellesen View Post
    Oh man, I still remember the very first time I did the last STK quest. Was soloing at-level on Normal with my first life 28pt max-Dex Elf Ranger with 12 CON and no gear at all (my 2nd character) with one of the cleric hirelings. I'm not sure how long it took me to get to the end but it had been a while, but no deaths that I recall (though I could be blocking those memories ). I dropped down, parked the hireling, did what little buffing I could, and slowly inched forward. I think I jumped 3 feet in the air when the boss appeared. One thing I remember clearly was that the hireling killed him with what appeared to be Searing light - I was SOOO glad I had him along, because my feeble attempts at pew-pew and melee weren't doing much if any damage to him lol. Imagine my joy when the Ring of Feathers appeared in the chest - my very first Feather Fall item of any kind
    You should have tried it back before F2P, and especially when the game was new. The guardian looked just like a fire giant, so you didn't know he was a construct unless you examined him. Still, most people didn't have an adamantine weapon at those levels. The DR was much higher and he a had a lot more hp than now. It wasn't unusual for at level groups to wipe even on normal, and it was almost expected on higher difficulties if you didn't have a few casters. The standard strategy was to form a half circle in a corner and shieldblock. Your casters would be in the middle and magic missile him to death. But if people got knocked out of place, there was a good chance for a wipe. There also used to be water in that room, and if he got pulled into the water, he would leash and respawn at full hit points. I don't know how many times I was in a party that had to release and reenter to finish. And in most parties, you had to wait for the people who died in that fight to release and then reenter to get their chest, because there was no way to get to a shrine form that last room.

  12. #52
    Community Member squishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefferweffer View Post
    Just to clarify, I'm the level 19 one, 17 wiz/2 rog. I have an Improved False Life item, toughness, 2 toughness enhancements, and Palemaster 2. I started with 18 CON and 18 INT (32 point build) and have a Health + 6 item. I have 342 hp. I really don't know any way to get more hp right now other than a Greater False Life item. I will get more with Palemaster III at 20 also.

    One Druid is 17, and the other is 16. I have no idea how many hps druids get per level. Are you saying that at those levels, as first lifers, they should also have more than 300 hp? I did notice that all our Cleric hirelings had more than 300 hp (levels 16-17 hirelings).

    Thanks again.
    I think the HP comments were not directed to you, but the people in the group who did not have 300 HP or better when you ran the quests.

    Yeah, people can tell you "you don't need a lot of HP to be good," but the reality is that unless you are an advanced player (which you're not as you are posting in the New Players forum), having a healthy HP reserve is a good indicator of success as it covers up a lot of flaws in the playstyle. My rogue at lvl 21 has about 360-some HP. Because of evasion and a few other factors he is able to stay in the fight just as long (or sometomes longer) then guys with nearly double that amount of HP.

    Not that I'm a encylopedic expert on rogues, but how I play him also helps.
    Antipan, Pandargon, Pandolin, Panifin, Panmorgan, Pangrael, and all other things "pan-ed"...

  13. #53
    Community Member squishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeebaNeighba View Post
    I will give you a fair warning now. The quest New Invasion, a level 19 in Shavarath, is another horribly backloaded quest like this, and it has a complicated maze to get to it so you can easily burn an hour simply getting to the end fight.
    +1.

    Make sure you get someone in the group who can kite well with blade barriers. It helps...a lot...
    Antipan, Pandargon, Pandolin, Panifin, Panmorgan, Pangrael, and all other things "pan-ed"...

  14. #54
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefferweffer View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy the game, just not these particular quests right now! Here I feared we were over-leveled (and indeed we may have been), and we still got wiped out.
    The first quest you tried is especially difficult. An important thing to know about the end fight also applies to various other quests in the game -- some encounters cannot be won by brute force. For your group mix it is particularly hard because you are healing dependent and hirelings don't know enough to move away from danger. It can be beaten by the two of you but not with the tactics you imply were used.

    The second quest can be won very easily if you apply the same principle mentioned above -- some encounters cannot be won by brute force. Like Whisperdoom in the Tangleroot chain, the end boss cannot, AFAIK, be killed by the players. This should be clear when he hits hard but takes virtually no damage from your characters. There must be some other way to dispatch of him. I'm sure by now you've puzzled that out.

    The third quest is just a situation of your friend overestimating your group's abilities.

    One thing of note is that your experience shows why hirelings are a poor substitute for real people. Hirelings do not think and cannot make decisions for themselves. They end up being liabilities at the precise time when they are needed most.

    All players would be better off if they learned how to survive without hirelings.

  15. #55

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    You picked three good ones!

    Knowledge = power in this game.

    You went into three tough fights with zero knowledge.

    What did you expect?

    Most quests can be solved without any knowledge but many require you to either have someone who knows the quest or put in some death and effort to learn how the quest goes.

    Each of those quests has a "common" team strategy people use.

    Each also can be improvised with the right characters.

    But each will hand you your bottom if you wander in unawares with a character that doesn't mesh well with the particular encounters. (and even then)

    Would you rather have everything be able to be solved first time out?

    You just happened to pick three doozies in a row.

    Your greatest wipes may end up being your best stories and your fondest memories later when you are a rich, knowledgeable and all-powerful dungeoneer.

    "Remember that time we wiped in Kobold so we decided to to do something 'easier' like Monestary and wiped again so decided to face Yaulthoon instead and wiped a third time? That was awesome!"

    Now get back up on your horsey and get back at 'em!
    .
    Last edited by phillymiket; 01-04-2013 at 12:07 PM.
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  16. #56
    The Hatchery danotmano1998's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phillymiket View Post
    Would you rather have everything be able to be solved first time out?

    You just happened to pick three doozies in a row.

    Your greatest wipes may end up being your best stories and your fondest memories later when you are a rich, knowledgeable and all-powerful dungeoneer.

    "Remember that time we wiped in Kobold so we decided to to do something 'easier' like Monestary and wiped again so decided to face Yaulthoon instead and wiped a third time? That was awesome!"

    Now get back up on your horsey and get back at 'em!
    .
    Well said!
    +1

    My personal best memories were times when I thought for sure we were all doomed and ended up scraping by just barely completing on a wing and a prayer.
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  17. #57
    Community Member Zenako's Avatar
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    You know, a part of me is almost thinking the OP is a plant who made that post to get a bunch of old timers back to running some of those same quests again, just to see if they really are that much of a pain....

    You could toss Dreams of Insanity into that mix as well. (the Beholder laden quest next to Tempest Spine that was only run on RARE occasions by masochists back in the day. It is pretty easy now for even slightly over level toons.)
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  18. #58
    Community Member tekkentroop's Avatar
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    As somebody above said, New Invasion is tough unprepared, but I think there are some other quests who are as tough at level if unprepared... The Pit, The Crucible... only in these the end fights arent the main problem. The first major wipe I experienced (wiping after spending a long time running through the quest) was in Stormcleave Outpost in the end fight a long time ago, with my first char above lvl 3... must have been almost 2 years ago.

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  19. #59
    Community Member psykopeta's Avatar
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    there's no hard quest in ddo (at least haven't found lol) only tricky ones

    monastery of scorpion: there's a safe point where boss can't reach, like in lord of dust, the boss will be trying to hit you cause you aren't "far enough" to find another way, but you aren't close enough for him to hit you, 1 guy opens the solver or solves the puzzle, the rest kill mobs

    etk: all evade players (cause you will need more than 1 lol) near the chest beating 1st boss, and then the 2nd boss, rest of players near the path that leads back to the shrine, healing, cc, ooze puppet, support team
    and finally, the guy who saves the party: 1 guy at the lever to pull it for the 234234 you will die

    in the flesh: mobs spawn in the same point, there are 2 for beholders, place 1 guy at each point(melee) with deathblock item lol, that player only has to kill the nearest beho(and has to pay attention to the closest coccoon to hide behind if the mob attacks him/her), 1 player for healing raising(always behind a coccon XD) the other 3 will kill first trash, and beat boss when they can: boss will send you projectiles, if they land in a coccon and you are CLOSE (not in straight line lol) you will recover hp and sp, if you are behind or in front you will probably die

    avoid these 3 quests, no matter how, only go with experienced players cause you will need knowledge about the quest, not simply heal, disable trap, smash smash smash

    there are more tricky quests, simply you found the ugly ones XDDDD

    PS: you did prey on the hunter? it can be called tricky quest too
    psykopeta - hoarding pl, for the sake of hoarding, the day i become ubercompletionist will be because there isn't anything to delay it more - thelanis, where the gimps claim to be pros and noobs claim to be pros, no newbies allowed(unless they claim to be pros), we have enough drama w/o them. PS i'm not a pro, maybe if i reincarnate in RL...

  20. #60
    Founder Chaos000's Avatar
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    Enter the kobold is a rough end fight unfortunately its a damage mitigation + dps check. 33% fire absorption can be crafted a umd scroll of fire shield will help.

    I've done this without a single player with evasion but the party was full of seasoned vets that were more than overgeared for the content.

    Caster with heighten and control oozes will help for the living spells. One imp evasion player with enough hp can also grab the aggro of all fire elementals and shield block across the lava and kept up by a dedicated healer alternating fire prot and heal scrolls while the other dps beat down the named while self healing
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