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  1. #1
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    Default Increasing usefulness of tumble, heal and repair

    Hello!

    I never played too much D&D 3.5, I played a bit of D20 Modern, but I see that in DDO, tumble, heal and repair skills are among the least useful ones. In fact, they do almost nothing.

    So I had a few ideas on, how to make them useful:

    Tumble first: In PnP, tumble was used to move without provoking attacks of opportunity, and move like opponents weren't even there. It also increased AC bonus gotten from fighting defensively or total defense. So tumble should be used to make it easier to move around opponents, and at high levels move just as if they weren't there, but also to get a minor AC bonus while on the move.

    Heal was used in PnP to help secondary saving throws against poison and disease. Why not do the same in DDO, and give a bonus to these saving throws if a character is near another one with ranks in heal (or has ranks him/herself) (highest rank taken into account)? Some poison is nasty stuff in DDO, so I would be grateful to see my saving throws increased by the cleric/ranger/paladin/favored soul (I particularly hate Mummy's rot, or the Forgotten Realms poisons...)... Maybe making it into an effect in the UI, so that players know how much of a bonus they would gain ((You are the)Team healer: The heal skill of a nearby party member/your heal skill gives you an untyped bonus of +x to your secondary saving throws against diseases and poison.)...

    Also, heal was used for minor healing, once a day per target. Why not allow characters with the heal/repair skill to cure 10% of a character HP using an interruptible animation like the one for search, with the caveat that it can be used one time on a given character per rest (that is to say when the target has rested)? Also, make repair/heal be usable without kits, at a -4 penalty, like in PnP.

    And repair could be used to maintain equipment, that is to say reduce the damage taken by equipment, a bit like the "X item defense" enhancements lines. And maybe extend the effect to all those near a character with ranks in repair (the quartermaster), taking the highest skill level into account (I'm not sure on extending the effect to nearby allies though... Just suggesting it.)? ((You are the) Quartermaster: A nearby ally/your maintenance on your equipment gives you a x% chance of negating item damage.)

    Would this be overpowered? Would this convince at least some players to put points in tumble, repair and heal?

  2. #2
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    Tumble is actually supposed to do more than it does in DDO. In Neverwinter Nights, also based on D&D rules, Tumble increases your armor class while rolling, based on your skill level. The Mobility Feat already does something similar.

    Heal is mislabeled, as far as what it does, and some of us would agree it needs to either change names or have a more accurate description. It is nothing more than a First Aid skill, but the kit is empty except for smelling salts and a bandage to stop bleeding.
    This is really a useless as an actve skill because any wand or HP buff can have the same effect.

  3. #3
    Community Member Franke's Avatar
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    Unfortunately, to tumble through opponents as if they aren't there, you need to put 3 points in the Magister tier 1 ability "Unearthly Reactions". It seems underpowered to me for an epic ability but there you have it.

    I like your suggestions and they make sense.
    /signed.

  4. #4
    Community Member pyntsized's Avatar
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    i don't know about the rest of you, but I put some points into heal if I have a lot of skill points on a toon. Why? More hp at rests is always nice. Not always needed, but nice especially if my ranger is sapped for sp because he gets too much aggro and has to spam CSW/CMW.
    repair is definitely useless. Not even on wf.

    another way to increase usefullness would be to add a spell power bonus for putting ranks in heal/repair (would help positive and repair spell power respectively). Maybe 1 rank= 1 spell power? Or even a 2 ranks = 1 spell power would entice some people to put points in.

    with tumble, I always have put points in, if I do, just in hopes that I can hit the 30 or so required to do flips. Because I can't type "/flip" or "/backflip" like in LOTRO. *hint: I would loooooooooove moar emotes* Maybe make tumble add a bonus to reflex saves? Would make sense. Could do a 5:1 ratio or something so as to make it so tumble wouldn't be over-useful.
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  5. #5
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sumia View Post
    And repair could be used to maintain equipment, that is to say reduce the damage taken by equipment, a bit like the "X item defense" enhancements lines.
    This ^

    The bit about other players repair abilities being used is frankly overcomplicated enough already - Same goes for Heal!

    My view is that the Item Defense Enhancement lines should be done away with entirely!
    Rework the Repair Skill to work like these for anyone who takes and maintains that skill - Items alone should NOT be enough after Lvl 4-5.

    As for Heal - Make this usable by Warforged too - It's a First Aid Ability after all - Why can't Warforged Rivet their wounds back together in the same way as a Human/Elf etc. would sew his/hers back together?
    Forget the Shrine business - Leave that effect alone as is BUT add another effect:

    Heal {Active 1/Rest} - When used this skill gives anyone who has taken it the ability to heal/repair their wounds - Duration 30 seconds {interruptible} at end of which character receives 1/Level HP back X 1/2 Heal Modifier {rounded down}
    SO - A Lvl 20 Character with 24 pts in Heal and a +15 item would receive 20 x 18 hp back OR 360
    If interrupted - Nothing is gained and ability is lost until rested.
    Cap Ability Mod at 40 {Same as Jump}.

    For each Epic Level gained - Active ability can be used 1 more time per rest - Max 6 times/rest at Lvl 25.
    25 x 20 {Capped Heal Skill - 40} is still Only 500 hp.

  6. #6
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    How about these:

    Heal

    1. First Aid: [Active] Once per rest, plus one additional time per rest for every 5 ranks you have in the Heal skill, you can heal your wounds for a number of HP equal to your total Heal modifier x 2. This takes about twice as long as drinking a potion, has an animation associated with it, but can be performed while on the move. It requires a Healer's Kit, which speeds up the animation by, say, 1 second per bonus on the kit (a +5 kit would cut the animation time down by 5 seconds, making it instantaneous, or near enough). [At level 25, with a +15 item and a +10 bonus from Wis, you could heal yourself for 106 HP 6 times per rest]
    2. Treat Injury: [Active] Once per rest, plus one additional time per rest for every 10 ranks you have in the Heal skill, you can heal your wounds, or the wounds of an ally, for a number of HP equal to your character level x your total Heal skill modifier. This takes 30 seconds, you and your target must remain stationary, can be interrupted, and requires a Healer's Kit, which speeds up the animation by 2 seconds per bonus on the kit. [At level 25, with a +15 item, and a +10 bonus from Wis, you could heal yourself for 1,325 HP 3 times per rest]
    3. Long-term Care: [Passive] When you rest at a shrine, or stand near someone resting at a shrine, you and your allies regain additional HP equal to twice your Heal skill modifier.

    Repair

    1. Minor Mending: [Active] Once per rest, plus one additional time per rest for every 5 ranks you have in the Repair skill, you can repair your wounds for a number of HP equal to your total Repair modifier x 2. This takes about twice as long as drinking a potion, has an animation associated with it, but can be performed while on the move. It requires a Repair Kit, which speeds up the animation by, say, 1 second per bonus on the kit (a +5 kit would cut the animation time down by 5 seconds, making it instantaneous, or near enough). [At level 25, with a +15 item and a +10 bonus from Int, you could heal yourself for 106 HP 6 times per rest]
    2. Refabrication: [Active] Once per rest, plus one additional time per rest for every 10 ranks you have in the Repair skill, you can repair your wounds, or the wounds of a mechanical ally, for a number of HP equal to your character level x your total Repair skill modifier. This takes 30 seconds, you and your target must remain stationary, can be interrupted, and requires a Repair Kit, which speeds up the animation by 2 seconds per bonus on the kit. [At level 25, with a +15 item, and a +10 bonus from Int, you could heal yourself for 1,325 HP 3 times per rest]
    3. Recharge: [Passive] When you rest at a shrine, or stand near someone resting at a shrine, you and your mechanical allies regain additional HP equal to twice your Repair skill modifier.
    4. Reinforcement: [Passive] You are skilled at protecting your gear against damage, granting you a % chance equal to twice your Repair skill modifier to negate potential item wear before it occurs

    Tumble

    1. Get rid of the crappy epic abilities that let you tumble through enemies--they aren't worth epic AP--and replace them with something worthwhile. Keep the animation effect associated with tumbling, though, because those look cool.
    2. Grant the ability to tumble through enemies.at 15 ranks.
    3. Have Tumble grant a Dodge % equal to your Tumble modifier that applies while you are tumbling, and for one second after you have stopped moving. Yes, I know that this could allow some characters to attain a Dodge % of over 100%. If you are tumbling, you aren't attacking or casting spells, so it seems worthwhile to me. Not to mention the fact that you can't really use this effectively while tanking, since it will move the boss around considerably (assuming you could retain aggro while flipping about).
    4. Have Tumble grant a bonus to Reflex saves equal to 1/4 your total modifier (or 1/2 your total if just versus traps).
    5. All of that is passive, but only works when you're actually tumbling.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  7. #7
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    I'd figure that tumble could be used to shorten negative effects such as trip. Could do a tumble skill vs trip DC to be able to break out of trip.

    I.E. You are tripped but back somersault and get back on your feet.

  8. #8
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    I don't know, heal did much more than restoring hit points in D&D... Save bonuses against poison, diseases...

    And then, getting a too huge mundane healing might cause a party to not need clerics on most quests, but not enough would lead them to not take heal, since a cleric healbot is enough to do the job... Also, classes with heal as a class skill are already magical healers, so apart from saving a few SP...

    Dodge bonus while tumbling? My rogue could rack up quite a huge bonus with proper support, and aggro a few mobs in, say Epic The Tides Turns, then tumble retreat to lead them into traps, while avoiding both enemies and traps...

    Maybe it's just me, but these are potential problems I see with alternate solutions...

  9. #9
    Community Member Ralladan's Avatar
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    As i started the game i had the impression that heal can be used to heal the own lost hitpoints back up and repair to be used to care for the own equipment, but as i found out for a solo played non warforged char, both are complete useless.

    And tumble only makes sense if you move around in battle alot with the keyboard keys otherwise its a waste of skillpoints either.

    I find it weird to have an entire skill focused on a single race only. What about a foot shaving skill next..to improve the sneak skill for halfling chars temporarly?^^

    I dont use any of those three skill, they are of no use for me like they are now.

  10. #10
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sumia View Post
    I don't know, heal did much more than restoring hit points in D&D... Save bonuses against poison, diseases...

    And then, getting a too huge mundane healing might cause a party to not need clerics on most quests, but not enough would lead them to not take heal, since a cleric healbot is enough to do the job... Also, classes with heal as a class skill are already magical healers, so apart from saving a few SP...
    Well, the idea is that non-casters could use a little self-healing that is actually worthwhile--right now we have CSW potions which are good up to between level 10 and 15, depending on the character, then UMD'ed Heal scrolls or Silver Flame potions, with nothing in between. Even at 6 self-heals a rest, you're probably not going to be free of requiring additional healing resources, or an actual healer, though it's possible if you play smart. Not requiring a healer isn't a bad thing at all. Allowing your party bard/cleric/druid/favored soul/artificer/sorcerer/wizard to not have to worry so much about healing you is a plus. Allowing them, especially at low levels, to save some SP for things that aren't cure/repair spells is a good thing.

    We're still talking about making an investment here--yeah, you can swap in the Heal/Repair equipment, but then you're losing the fast nature of one of the abilities. And it still means taking up at least 2 inventory slots, maybe an equipment slot, and spending skill ranks on something that isn't UMD, Intimidate, Spot, Search, Disable Device, Open Lock, or Balance, which probably means having to decide whether you can afford to spend more on Int and less somewhere else.

    Also, remember that Heal and Repair aren't class skills for everyone, so unless you multiclass, you're going to be down 12 ranks at level 20+ unless you multiclass. This is actually the biggest problem I foresee with this, since the classes that can already heal themselves don't really need free healing outside of the first few levels of the game. I'd probably consider making these class skills for everyone.

    Conversely, the skill could, instead of healing a set amount of damage, instead heal a % of your max health in damage. Maybe % = skill modifier? That would mean the example character set-up I gave in the previous post would be able to heal for 50% of their HP with First Aid. Treat Injury could double this as payment for the longer activation time. I'd probably reduce the number of uses per rest for First Aid in this case to 1 +1/10 ranks, for a total of 3 for those with the class skill from level 17 onward, or a total of 2 for those who don't from level 19 on (until the level cap goes up to 27 or 29, respectively). Treat Injury would be usable once per rest.
    Dodge bonus while tumbling? My rogue could rack up quite a huge bonus with proper support, and aggro a few mobs in, say Epic The Tides Turns, then tumble retreat to lead them into traps, while avoiding both enemies and traps...
    Right now, you could aggro them, and do the same thing by running in a zig-zag pattern, and if you're Hasted, you'll be moving faster than if you're tumbling, probably. Also, in both cases, the biggest danger is not in getting hit with an arrow from a monster chasing you, nor even from the traps you're running through (if you have a good Reflex save and Evasion/Improved), but of getting tagged by a spellcaster, from which this won't protect you.

    And again, it means making an investment of skill points, Dex, Dex items, Tumble items, and class features/enhancements/feats/epic abilities. Could possibly cap the Dodge bonus at number of ranks, so you don't ever get beyond 28, at level 25 (in this case, it should stack with other Dodge sources). In this case, the value of having a higher modifier would be in moving faster while performing this trick.
    Quote Originally Posted by GoRinNoSho View Post
    I'd figure that tumble could be used to shorten negative effects such as trip. Could do a tumble skill vs trip DC to be able to break out of trip.

    I.E. You are tripped but back somersault and get back on your feet.
    That's what Balance does, as counter-intuitive as that is. It would make more sense to me to replace the save or ability check vs. knockdown abilities with a Balance check (a Dex check for those without ranks or items), and the stand-up as a Tumble check.

    Tumble could also be used to negate knockback.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    That's what Balance does, as counter-intuitive as that is. It would make more sense to me to replace the save or ability check vs. knockdown abilities with a Balance check (a Dex check for those without ranks or items), and the stand-up as a Tumble check.

    Tumble could also be used to negate knockback.
    Yep. Agree balance should be more for staying up.

    Would like a tumble roll ability while prone. Possibly needing to overcome the original dc of the trip. That way we have our own player controlled sliding while tripped.

  12. #12
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    Be nice to get some input from a Dev on this. I'm curious now too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    How about these:

    //snip//
    I agree that these skills need an overhaul, heal and repair for sure.

    Here's a question- do heal and repair bonuses at shrines stack per character? If they don't, then it would be nice to get the bonus per character, and more when you have wisdom / intel based characters in the group. If the bonuses already stack per person, we could have shrine bonuses affected by healing / repair enhancements to increase the amount of healing at shrines.

    If that's not enough, then yes, I agree, this would be a good idea.

    More importantly,
    Give some failed traps a repair DC, if you can repair the failed trap, you can try to disable it again. You only have one chance to repair a failed trap.

    I won't go so far as saying heal and repair (and spot) are broken, but I feel that when these skills are dumped by players, the spirit of the game is lost.
    Last edited by aeroplanefly; 01-01-2013 at 01:10 PM.

  14. #14
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aeroplanefly View Post

    Here's a question- do heal and repair bonuses at shrines stack per character? If they don't, then it would be nice to get the bonus per character, and more when you have wisdom / intel based characters in the group. If the bonuses already stack per person, we could have shrine bonuses affected by healing / repair enhancements to increase the amount of healing at shrines.
    I would say that highest bonus should apply.
    More importantly,
    Give some failed traps a repair DC, if you can repair the failed trap, you can try to disable it again. You only have one chance to repair a failed trap.
    I like this idea.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

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