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  1. #121
    Community Member Zerkul's Avatar
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    Default Rough Math: Chain Lightning VS Magic Missile --- Shiradi's Champion Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by Viisari View Post
    Waste of SP and more importantly waste of time. Just getting one spider venom stack will out dps both your polar ray and lightning bolt and getting that thing up is most easily done by spamming magic missile, force missile or chain missile.

    And that ignoring all the other procs you'll get from multiple hits, I'm not exactly sure how you figure that polar ray would be any decent damage and more importantly how is it cost efficient in any way?
    Shiradi's Standard procs are:

    • 7% for 10d10 Sonic damage;
    • 7% for 2d100 Force damage;
    • 7% for 1d100 Random damage;
    • 7% for Uknown Effect from unknown list.

    On average for an Air Savant spec with 7/6/6 on main element, 7/1/1 on Force and Fire these procs have the following average per projectile (consider Twilight with combustion, EE Iron Beads and Planar focus of Erudition):

    • ~18 Sonic damage;
    • ~47 Force damage;
    • ~29 Random damage;
    • ... average Uknown for the Double Rainbow list.

    An example of these calculation is the following Sonic proc:
    =((10*5.5)*(435)/100*9%*225%+(10*5.5)*(435)/100*(1-9%))*0.07
    where 435 is the sonic spellpower factoring Maximize and Empower feats with a 80 item potency from staff.


    Now adding once all the procs to a Chain Lightning of 25d6 dices and five times to a Magic Missile for the above said build we get:

    • ~1196 average damage per cast for Chain Lightning;
    • ~648 average damage per cast of Magic Missile.

    Now if we compare the mana amount spent for point of damage with these numbers we get that:

    • Chain Lightning does 18.4 points of damage per spellpoint (without heighten) with Maximize and Empower;
    • Magic Missile does 14.7 points of damage per spellpoint with Maximize and Empower.

    You get even better results if you consider a Polar Ray which does more damage and costs even less spellpoints.

    Conclusion:
    What i want to say is that waiting for your Missiles spells to spam damage over time effects it is efficient but it's not the faster way to clean up trash. You get better results with higher mana consuming spells. I reserve these Missiles spells for longer fights, that's all.

    EDIT:
    As said below, I usually consider 95% chance to land a reflex save spell, in this case Chain Lightning (which is mostly not true for EE). On the other hand the example above can be done with Polar Ray which doesn't allow reflex save, does more damage and costs less mana (though it's single-target).
    Last edited by Zerkul; 03-19-2013 at 01:44 PM.
    Guild Leader of "GODS - Guardians Of the Dragon Sanctuary" on Cannith --- My Characters: Zavarthak (20 Barbarian Frenzied/Ravager DPS - MAIN), Ryumajin (Warlock,), Leohands (Evocation FVS firstlife), Galvano (Paladin TWF). - If you like or find useful my posts, consider adding reputation.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zerkul View Post
    *snip*
    This math has some problems.

    Firstly, it's assuming that you're getting through mob reflex save which isn't a given on EE.

    Secondly it's ignoring Double Rainbow completely which is the major source of damage for shiradis.

    In other words this math is worthless.

  3. #123
    Community Member Zerkul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viisari View Post
    This math has some problems.

    Firstly, it's assuming that you're getting through mob reflex save which isn't a given on EE.

    Secondly it's ignoring Double Rainbow completely which is the major source of damage for shiradis.

    In other words this math is worthless.
    I usually consider 95% chance to land a reflex save spell, in this case Chain Lightning [which is not truth for EE content most of the time]. You can consider a Polar Ray instead which does more damage and it's more efficient single-target wise [and doesn't allow reflex save].

    What i want to underline is that you don't get a 7% chance to a super-uber damage dealing effect with double rainbow but a 7% chance for an effect that can do damage, heal or debuff the mob you're hitting: therefore the damage dealing effects of double rainbow don't happen 7% of the time but much less.

    A clear example of what i'm saying is that sometimes you need few lucky casts to place Deep Tar on a target, while some other times you can wait till the boss health end before placing it. In the first sitution your DPS raises a lot, in the second one it doesn't. In my humble opinion the status/dots spreading with missiles is something to be reserved only for longer fights.

    You can play your Shiradi how you like, but would you kill the giant skeletons of EETor before a dragon faster by using meteor swarm, chain missiles and magic missiles or by using a good old style rotation like meteor swarm, chain lightning, delayed blast fireball and ball of lightning? ... There's a place and a time for brutal nuking, there's another for sustained one.
    Last edited by Zerkul; 03-19-2013 at 12:18 PM.
    Guild Leader of "GODS - Guardians Of the Dragon Sanctuary" on Cannith --- My Characters: Zavarthak (20 Barbarian Frenzied/Ravager DPS - MAIN), Ryumajin (Warlock,), Leohands (Evocation FVS firstlife), Galvano (Paladin TWF). - If you like or find useful my posts, consider adding reputation.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by HalfORCastrator View Post
    Even though you've quit I'll put my two cents in as one who has a human.

    It takes very little to go for reasonable prr with this build, though I agree with Mech that wasting feats or twists isn't good, the paladin levels supply proficiency in the heavier armors. My plan is to run EE Shadowmail with Divine Power clickies. Just with this and a +14 prr augment my PRR should have around 15% mitigation, 18% with DP clickies(if this works, haven't been able to test/find out because of me not wanting to bind my EE Shadowmail just yet due to value)).

    PRR: 9sorc+2pal+3epic=14bab*.66medium=9+4=13+14blueslot =27prr=15% mitigation / dp25bab*.66medium=16+4=20+14blueslot=34prr=18% mitigation

    That said, having uninterruptible Recons for 500+ hp is tons better than interruptible scrolls for sub-400(along with better Rejuv Cocoon and Healing Spring even) and whatever else human has to offer. Although I haven't finished gearing this guy, and 15% mitigation is a huge difference. I guess I'll see what happens.
    Just updating. DP clickies work to increase my prr. Almost geared out with this guy, turning out very, very fun. (although wf would still be better)
    ME BARB, ME SMA-ok I stand here with pretty blue lines around me. ok I take damage. ok bye.

  5. #125
    Community Member Tanks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    I am probably overlooking something - why intimidation?
    I'd like to know this, too!

  6. #126

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    I wonder how Bladeforged would do with this...it's forced to take a Palaidn level anyways and doesn't have a penalty to Charisma

  7. #127
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    Default If Iconics cannot TR

    Quote Originally Posted by ~TheFailedlegend View Post
    I wonder how Bladeforged would do with this...it's forced to take a Palaidn level anyways and doesn't have a penalty to Charisma
    Then a build like this may very well be the only way to keep the relevant past cap... Oh, and the shiny graphics of course.
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  8. #128
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Is evasion (2 rogue or monk) no longer important to a Battle Sorc?
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  9. #129
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Is evasion (2 rogue or monk) no longer important to a Battle Sorc?
    If you have the reflex, will and fort saves for EE gianthold, go for it!
    Most of us find that hard though, due to, y'know, being a sorc. (And come on, charisma mod -> saves is OP)

  10. #130
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    If you have the reflex, will and fort saves for EE gianthold, go for it!
    Most of us find that hard though, due to, y'know, being a sorc. (And come on, charisma mod -> saves is OP)
    I was more referring to the Sorc16/Pally2/Rogue or Monk2 Model
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  11. #131
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    I was more referring to the Sorc16/Pally2/Rogue or Monk2 Model
    Then you'd lose wings, which is just a shame, though it's down to opinion.
    I'd rather wings than evasion, seeming most of the dangers in EE (that I've found) weren't from a lack of evasion.

  12. #132
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    Default Pally Levels?

    At what levels should I be taking the Paladin levles???

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by RonSwanson View Post
    At what levels should I be taking the Paladin levles???
    If you have played a sorc to cap before, I'd say 19-20 because more dps is better to me than saves for heroic levels. If not, then after getting key spells like firewall/Acid rain/DDoor or the ones you wouldn't like to delay is a popular alternative I guess.

    It doesn't really matter since it is not about skills or feats order. It's just the charisma mod bonus to saves you're looking for with the splash.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~TheFailedlegend View Post
    I wonder how Bladeforged would do with this...it's forced to take a Palaidn level anyways and doesn't have a penalty to Charisma
    It works very nicely. Being able to use SLA Communion of Scribing (Reconstruct) for 25sp (at lvl 3) frees up having to take reconstruct spell.

  15. #135
    Community Member 777atheaven's Avatar
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    Default Heroic levels?

    Hi, I was just wondering, in heroic levels would this build still be pretty OP? I plan to tr my wizard into this and was wondering if the journey up to epic levels would be painful or not.
    Mausetrap / Meowingtons / Ppuple / Mausegurl

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  16. #136
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 777atheaven View Post
    Hi, I was just wondering, in heroic levels would this build still be pretty OP? I plan to tr my wizard into this and was wondering if the journey up to epic levels would be painful or not.
    It's a sorc w/ high saves, it'll be fine. (even if sorc's weren't shown much love)

  17. #137
    Community Member Olds-cool's Avatar
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    Can you clarify what makes your Missiles so SP efficient for a dummy like me?

    I want to build an 18/2 (sorc/fvs) for my first run through to farm out the gear needed and I can't for the life of me find what it is that gives you this efficiency but I would assume it's not from the monk lines. I know I'll be missing out on the great dodge but I think I should still be able to solo eH's and some easier EEs with the 18/2.

    Thanks for any pointers and for this excellent build.
    Olds, Proud Member of The Silver Legion on Cannith
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  18. #138
    The Hatchery MRMechMan's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Olds-cool View Post
    Can you clarify what makes your Missiles so SP efficient for a dummy like me?

    I want to build an 18/2 (sorc/fvs) for my first run through to farm out the gear needed and I can't for the life of me find what it is that gives you this efficiency but I would assume it's not from the monk lines. I know I'll be missing out on the great dodge but I think I should still be able to solo eH's and some easier EEs with the 18/2.

    Thanks for any pointers and for this excellent build.
    Sorry for the late reply, I've been away from the game ~4months.

    Anyway-
    MM=4sp
    force missles=8sp
    chain missles=15sp
    Meteor Swarm=40sp+10sp quicken

    Generally I don't meta anything but MS.

    Right now I just returned to the game and I am running the /2fvs version on an alt. With the fvs enhancements you get a good change of getting temp sp on each hit, so spamming MM/FM is basically "free" unless you get unlucky with the procs. Even then, you're down a handful of sp. Most of my SP goes to displace/haste/recon/MS. Because the damage is based on the # of procs you are getting, particularly when you have JotQ, you can sustain solid damage for a very, very long time.

    As a side-note, the 16wiz/2monk/2fvs is quite popular now as well, as you get high dodge, temp sp procs, spellpower, archmage evoc stuff (free metas!), a ton of feats/versitility from being a wizard, lots of skill points (2rog instead of monk=trapping) and the smaller sp pool doesn't really hurt at all.

    I enjoy my wings too much, though, and meteorswarm is probably the best overall spell for shiradis.

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