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  1. #61
    Community Member Todesnymphe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyopa View Post
    So, until you actually have to do a lot of epic destiny farming, then you simply will not understand why people would run quests like this one and House of Rusted Blades until their eyes bleed. (For the record, I think HoRB is more fun than HoDU, but I don't really run that quest in groups - nearly always solo or with a friend at the most).
    I see your point. I actually do have a lvl 23 rogue on Wayfinder, who is wayp ast the Xp for lvl 24, with Shadowdancer 3, GMoF 4, Unyielding 3 and ExaltedA 1. I never bothered to actually lvl up to 24, because I didn't feel like it yet. And looked into the divine destinies just for fun (though I find the unbreakable stance very helpful). So I'm not stranger to knowing that it takes big amounts of XP for the next lvl, but... well, I guess I just don't care so much about the leveling up stuff. But then again, I don't really expect my character to survive in an EE quest.

  2. #62
    Community Member t0r012's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ushurak View Post
    The problem with your logic is that we WERE running it the way intended...as I have already CLEARLY pointed out.

    Now, if their intention was to make us do the optionals theny shouldn't have made them OPTIONAL...they should have made them part of teh quest objective.
    It it was being run as intended why would they make this change.

    I'm sorry but your logic is flawed.

    It was not being completed with the time/effort/resources required that we're intended. They made a small change requiring people to use the effort/time/resources intended.

    How can you tell me my logic is wrong when all of the evidence suggests I am entirely 100% correct?
    ---

    Regardless of all of our banter here it makes no difference , turbine changed the quest as they saw fit. No explanation needed. They could have added 3,876 more be necromancers that all needed to be killed before even getting the first objective if they so wished.
    It is their ball , they can take it and go home if they want to
    Move along , Nothing to see here

  3. #63
    Community Member Ushurak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Systern View Post
    Ok...I am now satisfied and satiated.

    Nuff said.

    ...the fact that Tolero gave the explanation in the perspective of the HoDU inhabitants actually made it more palpable and would make sense...

    If I was performing dark necromantic magics in my bedroom, I wouldn't want any group of persons in the disguise of family members just being able to split up and one go to my basement and grab my TNT and run to my library and blow it up while the other group waited patiently at my bedroom door for the door to unlock due to the explosion taking out the security system.

    I love Tolero...

    See...I do remember saying that if I just jump to the conclusion that I and others think is the answer, that the Devs may just come on here and prove us wrong and then I would feel like an ass...now I feel great...have fun and see you in HoDU...BTW...watch out for the new security, I have it on good word it is brutal and fool-proof.
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  4. #64
    Community Member Ushurak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by t0r012 View Post
    They could have added 3,876 more be necromancers that all needed to be killed before even getting the first objective if they so wished.
    It is their ball , they can take it and go home if they want to
    HOLY ****...SSSHHHHHHHHH...no ideas please...
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ushurak View Post
    The problem with your logic is that we WERE running it the way intended...as I have already CLEARLY pointed out.

    Now, if their intention was to make us do the optionals theny shouldn't have made them OPTIONAL...they should have made them part of teh quest objective.
    Ever think that just maybe, they didn't like the way the quest worked even though it was being run as intended? Maybe they simply weren't satisfied with how they initially designed it, so made changes? Maybe they were just embarrassed at releasing content with such a stupidly easy to find short cut in it and changed it in the hopes that we would quickly forget about their mistake?

    It is their game to do with what they please regardless of how people are playing it. If they felt like it they could continuously be changing every quest in the game with no explanation to us needed (which personally I would love).

  6. #66
    Community Member Eistander's Avatar
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    Pfft.. I still remember when they changed the way that Co6 part 2 was changed.. sounds eerily similar.. and yet, people dealt with it and simply rolled on. Super-broken-zomg-expeeeeezzz quest is not quite as fast as it was before? Meh.

    /thread
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  7. #67
    The Hatchery bigolbear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ushurak View Post
    Why was it fair?

    You EARNED that 39 second run.
    You met the expectations that Devs set in the quest.
    You ran it, you picked up the stones, destroyed the cauldrons and killed Relig.

    EARNED!

    If I go to work for someone and they tell me that I will make $100.00 for every "XYZ" I make and most people are making on average 2 a day but I come along and through my own efforts and intellect I figure out a way, without breaking any company rules, to do make 6 a day....does that mean I DIDN'T EARN it?

    No...I earned it and I shouldn't be punished by having an obstacle placed int he way of my success that forces me to ONLY make 2 a day.
    If they had taken away my XP - Id be upset. (as you rightly say we werent exploiting, just playing well and fast.)
    I kept what I earned, as have we all.

    They have decided that we players were getting too much too fast, faster than they had intended - ie the dungeon was not WAI from thier perspective - thus they changed it. The only issue I have with the change is that you have to kill X mobs near the first door if you want to pick the second, and that theres no key to be had for the new door.

    As an avid stealther I realy loath the kill X mobs to open door mechanic.
    And all locked doors should be pickable (even if the DC is above what we can ever reach), and have a key somewhere in the dungeon.. usualy in the pocket of a boss.

    "this door cannot be picked/this door cannot be opened until you solve X objective" - this door breaks my emersion.
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  8. #68
    Community Member Fomori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyopa View Post
    When you have 15m to 20m experience points to earn to get your destinies and twists of fate set up the way you want, then you run quests like this over and over again over multiple play sessions. No, the goal is not to get xp as fast as possible. The goal is to get the destinies leveled as fast as possible so you can get back to doing things that are actually fun. My monk has a 4/1/1 set of twists (Sense Weakness, Legendary Tactics, Brace for Impact) and my rogue has a 4/2/1 set of twists (Sense Weakness, Walking with Wind, Brace for Impact) and he'll swap Walking with Wind for Hail of Blows when he gets a new striding item (Quiver of Alacrity here I come.....someday, uh, hopefully maybe perhaps).

    I also got my rogue to max destiny points in Shiradi Champion to make it easier to farm some gear on him. So, until you actually have to do a lot of epic destiny farming, then you simply will not understand why people would run quests like this one and House of Rusted Blades until their eyes bleed. (For the record, I think HoRB is more fun than HoDU, but I don't really run that quest in groups - nearly always solo or with a friend at the most).
    What I have always found interesting is the mindset that people will make deliberate choices that increase their suffering now simply to speed up to what the consider "fun" later. Usually with that fun lasting much much shorter that what they suffered, before being "forced", in their opinion, into the suffering/fun cycle all over again. It is socially fascinating.

    The character I have the most destinies on is about 80-90% done on maxing them out. However not once have I farmed a quest I hated or that bored me. I have run some quests to farm gear (less than 10 runs), and I have gone on exploration point runs, but its been doing things that are furthering my character or my own version of fun. Most of the quests I simply ran them on hard/norm/elite for first time bonuses and to experience the changes of epics. Granted, its taking me longer, but there is a way to do so without ever being "forced" into suffering.

    I am not advocating that my way is right, or the person I quoted is wrong. Simply that we are getting to the same conclusions via different paths.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mournbladereigns View Post
    Actually, if this Nerf's one of Shade's barb's I doubly support this!

  9. #69
    Community Member Coyopa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fomori View Post
    What I have always found interesting is the mindset that people will make deliberate choices that increase their suffering now simply to speed up to what the consider "fun" later. Usually with that fun lasting much much shorter that what they suffered, before being "forced", in their opinion, into the suffering/fun cycle all over again. It is socially fascinating.

    The character I have the most destinies on is about 80-90% done on maxing them out. However not once have I farmed a quest I hated or that bored me. I have run some quests to farm gear (less than 10 runs), and I have gone on exploration point runs, but its been doing things that are furthering my character or my own version of fun. Most of the quests I simply ran them on hard/norm/elite for first time bonuses and to experience the changes of epics. Granted, its taking me longer, but there is a way to do so without ever being "forced" into suffering.

    I am not advocating that my way is right, or the person I quoted is wrong. Simply that we are getting to the same conclusions via different paths.
    Well, part of my issue is that I hate having to switch my destinies whenever I want to run a raid, which was every 3 days for Shroud (at a minimum per character) while I was VIP. Even though I could switch my destinies in any public area, it was still a pain. Now that I am not VIP (and until I am again, hopefully soon), it is something I simply refuse to do on a frequent basis.

    Also, I like the feeling of "being done" leveling. I like running quests for gear, but I don't like having to still worry about leveling. This aspect would be lessened if I could put the experience earned into a selected destiny while still having the destiny I want to be in active for use while questing. If I could do that, then I would almost never grind for experience. I say "almost never" because there are still going to be times when my goal for that play session is to crank out as much experience in as little time as possible.

    As far as House of Rusted Blades, after running it a while in groups for fast experience, I found it was boring me to sleep - literally. So, I stopped running it in groups and changed my objectives. The primary objective is still relatively fast experience, but now I run it only until I have ransacked the quest reward list. So, the secondary objective has become gaining as much renown for my guild as possible while also gaining lots of experience for my character. I've found that I can earn 20k to 40k renown per character per week in this way. I've also discovered that if you have Leap of Faith, Abundant Step, or Snowslide, the quest is actually quite a lot of fun solo because you can get from the top of the bell to the upper deck and fight Teblyn at the door behind where he spawns. This usually gets you no adds and, if you can sneak, then you can fall off the upper deck and land behind the chest, looting it without fighting. If you cannot sneak, then you are better off killing whatever mobs spawned on the upper deck near you (particularly wizards as you can take them each one at a time), then killing the mobs that spawned near the chest.

    So, I've found ways to make the quest more fun, reduce the feel of grinding, expand my objectives, and limit my exposure (by doing this once per week per character, no more than three characters per week - and usually only two characters per week).

  10. #70
    The Hatchery
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    Oh noes!

    An epic quest can no longer be completed in the time it takes to take a bio break, netting +7.5k XP/min!

    Game ruined forever!

  11. #71
    Community Member Ushurak's Avatar
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    OH ... This thread is still going? @-@ The answer to why this was done has already been given. Nothing to see here...move along.
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  12. #72
    Community Member arkonas's Avatar
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    Sorry but i dont find this a nerf at all. i find it boring to do it in 2 mins. i enjoy fighting the matron or the priestess for the named items. so you keep finding ways to make the quests harder for you while i enjoy them for the way they were actually made.

  13. #73
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    Default HoDU nerf

    Quote Originally Posted by LOOON375 View Post
    Based upon what I am reading, players were using an "exploit" (and yes I said exploit) to complete a quest in a manner other than what was originally intended.
    I don't think you are using the term "exploit" correctly, as OP reflects.

    I agree that there should have been more documentation for this change in the release notes. Adding a DM voiceover for the door would be beneficial as someone pointed out.

    The suggestion for a key somewhere for the door also makes sense--it can be out of the way for you to spend more time in the quest, but forcing everyone without access to high lockpicking skills is boring and unimaginative.

    I further agree that most doors should have a strength check associated with them so we can knock them down :]

    When one DMs in PnP, you can't reasonably expect a barbarian with enough strength to grapple a giant (or in our cases, to stand toe-to-toe with a goddess) to be hindered by a simple door. And if you realize that you've put a simple door where a fortified one should've been, you backpedal and say it's fortified!

    The mention of how stealth is no longer a viable tactic is also highly valid.

    We should have fixed bugs, not nerfed quests. And if anything, they should've been nerfing dun'Robar or finding acceptable ways for people to destiny farm so they wouldn't have to farm dun'Robar. Even if we feed in to Turbine's profit tactics and buy experience potions, players that need to level destinies at level 25 are left little recourse but to farm dun'Robar until their eyes bleed.
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  14. #74
    Community Member Nitesco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ushurak View Post
    ALOT more.
    Are you sure?

  15. #75
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    i stopped reading this aroudn the 3rd page...and I disagree with the originator of this post.

    what i say is that if you were running the quest in 39 sec and receiving epic xp, and if you still want to do that and a door is in your way...then pick a character than can pick locks.

    the first time I ran this quest...i saw the open door (but didnt have to time to finish it...I was soling it), didnt play for a while came back and then I noticed the door...still in a solo mode, I made my way around and found the path to the end. SO whats the problem?

    I will tell you what it is...chances are your TR and you need the experiance...so if you can get 100K experiance in 5 minutes of farming this 20 times, yeah that is massive xp in short period of time something you desperatly need...now you actually have to work for it. From my experiance there is nothing wrong with the quest EVEN with the changes. Furthermore this goes in line of most DDO adventures being pretty much linear. There is no surprises, other than hey you want to finish this quest in record time, then guess what...be a rouge with a high OL.

    I am glad the devlopers went back and fixed this...they should have. To say that this is poor design is upsurd. What makes it poor? because they put a locked door in your way?? because you can not finish it faster than intended. My suggestion to you, enjoy the game and that is what is lost...in the last few years as I have seen ppl literally vanish off of all the servers and actual good groups because more and more rare is because of "snooty" ppl who are on their 3rd life who take this game for xp and not enjoyment or a sense of teamwork to accomplish a quest or adventure as intended.

    like it dont like it it is the truth.

  16. #76
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ushurak View Post

    Analogy:
    A person learns how to make money legally and efficiently and shows others how to do it.
    The Government steps in and puts up a legal barrier that either stops or extremely slows down their success in this area... Barriers against success = Punishment of Success.

    Kinda like the Banks and the Morgage fiasco and susequent bailout?

    You should really find another analogy if you want sympathy.

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    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

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  17. #77
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    I favor the way they dealt with this, by actually using things in the quest itself to encourage players to run the quest more like it was intended, -vs- the way they used to deal with this kind of stuff, with completely arbitrary unrealistic game mechanics like dungeon alert, which as we see here didnt really stop people from making huge amounts of mobs active while farming completions in little to no time.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  18. #78
    The Hatchery DarkForte's Avatar
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    Now, the question is, if they were so intent on not letting you pass as to put an extremely strong locked door (one that's very hard to pick), why is everything in Relig's room just standing around and waiting, and letting you pass?
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  19. #79
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkForte View Post
    Now, the question is, if they were so intent on not letting you pass as to put an extremely strong locked door (one that's very hard to pick), why is everything in Relig's room just standing around and waiting, and letting you pass?
    Is it because of the drow illusion spell the Combat mages cast on you?

  20. #80
    Community Member Llewndyn's Avatar
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    Default @ Usharak

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Kinda like the Banks and the Morgage fiasco and susequent bailout?

    You should really find another analogy if you want sympathy.
    Curse you until the end of time for making me agree with Hendrick but he's right. I promise I won't get all political after this but when people spout off buzz lines they heard on their lame partisan news channels it makes me want to abort my own rear end with a rusty pitchfork.
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