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  1. #41
    Community Member t0r012's Avatar
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    Devs make quest expecting it to be run in one way or a small number of ways in a certain amount of time with a certain amount of challenge / resources used

    Some one figures out a way to circumvent the amount of time/challenge/resources used as originally intended.

    Devs change quest to prevent circumventing quest design.

    What is the problem here?
    Move along , Nothing to see here

  2. #42
    Community Member Ushurak's Avatar
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    There has NEVER been an exploit in HoDU.

    Step 1: Go acquire flashstones downstairs.
    Step 2: Go to Library and destroy Cauldron
    Step 3: Go upstairs and kill Relig the Wizard
    Step 4: Destroy the two Cauldrons that are located in the same room as Relig which can only be accessed upon killing Relig.

    This has been the way it was supposed to be done from day one and this is the way it has been done by myself and everyone I have run with. No EXPLOIT.

    We were not "jumping walls" or "climbing corners" or "walking through bad graphics" or anything else that could even come close to being interpreted as an exploit.

    We did not circumvent intended obstructions or place light sticks through barriers without solving puzzles or drag our bank inventory all the way to a quest to drop in a uber "drops on exit" item.

    WE DID NOT EXPLOIT.

    What we did do, however, was to use our brains to become successful and I personally feel like we got punished for it.

    I hope that punishing success does not become a trend.

    My hope is that this was a way to slow the player base down until Turbine could introduce U17.

    It would be nice to receive an official explanation but that could also cause us to ask more questions...maybe there is an official answer in the forums somewhere that I don't no about.

    If anyone knows of an response from the Devs about this please feel free to post a link.
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  3. #43
    Community Member t0r012's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ushurak View Post
    There has NEVER been an exploit in HoDU.

    Step 1: Go acquire flashstones downstairs.
    Step 2: Go to Library and destroy Cauldron
    Step 3: Go upstairs and kill Relig the Wizard
    Step 4: Destroy the two Cauldrons that are located in the same room as Relig which can only be accessed upon killing Relig.

    This has been the way it was supposed to be done from day one and this is the way it has been done by myself and everyone I have run with. No EXPLOIT.

    We were not "jumping walls" or "climbing corners" or "walking through bad graphics" or anything else that could even come close to being interpreted as an exploit.

    We did not circumvent intended obstructions or place light sticks through barriers without solving puzzles or drag our bank inventory all the way to a quest to drop in a uber "drops on exit" item.

    WE DID NOT EXPLOIT.

    What we did do, however, was to use our brains to become successful and I personally feel like we got punished for it.

    I hope that punishing success does not become a trend.

    My hope is that this was a way to slow the player base down until Turbine could introduce U17.

    It would be nice to receive an official explanation but that could also cause us to ask more questions...maybe there is an official answer in the forums somewhere that I don't no about.

    If anyone knows of an response from the Devs about this please feel free to post a link.
    Quest was completed faster and easier than intended , door was placed to slow the completion down.
    You are taking this way too personally.
    Something was not being completed as intended without the door availed impede progress.
    Door was placed to have the quest completed as desigined.

    Ergo something was not being done as intended. Sure not an exploit but still within the designers rights to change the quest so that it was run as intended.

    -------
    What I don't care for was the change to the Druid pack and the stealth quest. Too few of them available.
    Requiring kills to complete was the wrong choice IMo.
    Stealth wasn't the problem invis/haste Zerg was.
    True seeing on the mobs would have been a better choice.
    Move along , Nothing to see here

  4. #44
    Community Member Coyopa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LOOON375 View Post
    Well apparently it is a secret to some, since it took two pages for someone to finally and openly state what was changed. I pug tons on my server, and I had never heard of it until now.

    So what you are saying is, it's Turbines fault for crappy dungeon design (initially) that "forced" people to use the shortcut, but yet when they fix that supposed crappy design, they are also wrong? Sweet.
    I never said their poor design forced anyone to run the quest in any particular manner at all, but thank you for trying to put words in my mouth. What I actually said is that if the designer had taken some time to look at the quest they designed, they would have realized that players would figure out that you can split the party up and dramatically reduce the time required to complete the quest. Furthermore, I did not say they were wrong to fix the design. In fact, I have never voiced an opinion about the change to the quest - because I simply do not have one. I do not care if they change the design of the quest. It's certainly not the first time they've changed the design of a quest and it won't be the last time, either.

    As for it being a secret, it's only a secret to people who have never looked at the map of the dungeon, recognizing that you could reach the end objective from the initial objective by climbing a pair of ramps and going through a door. Personally, I think it's pretty cool they changed the door to a locked door with a very high DC. Open Lock is an under-utilized skill and one that many players will only devote 10 to 13 skill points to while leveling. On my rogue, I've made sure to keep my OL skill max'd and get the best gear I can to boost it. However, many people do not and I'm happy to see that the designers are putting in some locks that give people a reason to shoot for max OL skill.

  5. #45
    Hero LOOON375's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ushurak View Post

    What we did do, however, was to use our brains to become successful and I personally feel like we got punished for it.

    I hope that punishing success does not become a trend.
    There are differing levels of "exploiting" something. You act as if they have a personal vendetta against you. Your OP stated to "don't bash Turbine", but yet you openly accuse them of purposely punishing YOUR "success". Congratulations, you won DDO.

    Also, nowhere in your OP did you actually state what was "nerfed" or how it was nerfed. You made a generalized statement about the quest with no specifics. And then when I made multiple attempts to get an answer to what was actually changed and how it was changed, all I heard was crickets. "it was nerfed and I don't like it".

    It took someone else to state what the actual issue was.

    If Turbine was to punish anyone, Im sure there would be bannings. But I haven't heard of anyone being banned or suspended for using this "shortcut" "exploit".....whatever label you want to use.
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  6. #46
    Community Member loki_3369's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ushurak View Post
    This door was neither knockable nor pickable.
    I don't feel like reading through three pages of responses, so if it's already been said, I'm sorry.

    The level 24 rogue hireling you can pick up in Eveningstar can pick the door with reasonable success.
    Snarfity snarfly snarf.

  7. #47
    Community Member Snapdragoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ushurak View Post
    Please be more careful with your comments on this thread.
    I asked that there be no Turbine or Dev bashing.

    I understand the frustration, but this contributes nothing and detracts plenty.

    There are enough "Hulk Bash Devs" threads on the forums already.

    ...and yes...I have joined in my share of times as well...
    well i apologise to YOU then. but i am not a ViP, i own every adventure pack, race, vet status, etc. i paid for my game. and as they updates go buy like so many others all we see is bugs go ignored, epic destiny abilities that still dont work, more things added to the store, old bugs that are still not fixed, new bugs that go unfixed.

    to farm these quests for ED xp you already have to be 25, have left them alone because of how penalties aply, and its still a MASSIVE amount of xp. . .but i guess they want to sell destiny keys out of the DDO store -_-

    just wait till they start "fixing" old quests, soon there will be a door in kobolds new ringleader were you jump the middle that has a massive open lock DC. or more doors added to quests so you cant invisi through them anymore (kobold brothers, were theres smoke, etc.)

    the same continues, bugs continue, things that help players are "fixed" it just makes me sad. . .but hey TESO comes out next year (the elder scrolls online)

  8. #48
    The Hatchery bigolbear's Avatar
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    My previous best time was 39 seconds.....(for those interested: 2 people with sprint boost run to get flashstones, one goes to libry, one to boss - rest of group to boss)

    Yeh, adding a locked door was prety fair.

    adding the kill requirements to the other door was not, thats always been a ******** mechanic. Now you cant stealth it, A valid tactic removed.

    A dm voice over "The door is locked, perhaps you should go around" might be an idea.. as might having a key somewhere sensible (eg panthers chest).
    Ex Euro player from devourer: Charaters on orien(Officer of Under Estimated & Nightfox): Wrothgar, Cobolt, Shadeweaver, TheMetal, Metaphysical, Allfred, Razortusk and many more.
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  9. #49
    Community Member Ushurak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LOOON375 View Post
    There are differing levels of "exploiting" something.
    No there isn't. That is like saying there are varying levels of lying or pregnancy.

    Quote Originally Posted by LOOON375 View Post
    You act as if they have a personal vendetta against you.

    I do? Please show me where I made any statement in correlation to myself and how I think the Devs feel about me.
    This is something that will affect everyone, unfortunately the new players getting to run it may never know it is affecting them...but the ones like myself that enjoyed teaching and helping newer players are more likely to avoid it because it is now a pita.


    Quote Originally Posted by LOOON375 View Post
    Your OP stated to "don't bash Turbine", but yet you openly accuse them of purposely punishing YOUR "success".
    I didn't bash Turbine...I stated fact ..."logic and reasoning".
    It wasn't MY (caps there? really...) success. It was the success of an intelligent player base. To do something to thwart the successes of a combined group of people that were successful is, in all essences, punishing success.

    Quote Originally Posted by LOOON375 View Post
    Also, nowhere in your OP did you actually state what was "nerfed" or how it was nerfed. You made a generalized statement about the quest with no specifics. And then when I made multiple attempts to get an answer to what was actually changed and how it was changed, all I heard was crickets. "it was nerfed and I don't like it".
    Why don't you go back and read MY op again. I said they added a door and I called it a nerf and my OP was in regard to the fact that they are forcing us to now run around our buttholes to get to our thumbs...instead of just going for our thumbs like we were doing. Most people could figure out the nerf...but hey...


    Analogy:
    A person learns how to make money legally and efficiently and shows others how to do it.
    The Government steps in and puts up a legal barrier that either stops or extremely slows down their success in this area... Barriers against success = Punishment of Success.
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  10. #50
    Community Member Ushurak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigolbear View Post
    My previous best time was 39 seconds.....(for those interested: 2 people with sprint boost run to get flashstones, one goes to libry, one to boss - rest of group to boss)

    Yeah, adding a locked door was pretty fair.
    Why was it fair?

    You EARNED that 39 second run.
    You met the expectations that Devs set in the quest.
    You ran it, you picked up the stones, destroyed the cauldrons and killed Relig.

    EARNED!

    If I go to work for someone and they tell me that I will make $100.00 for every "XYZ" I make and most people are making on average 2 a day but I come along and through my own efforts and intellect I figure out a way, without breaking any company rules, to do make 6 a day....does that mean I DIDN'T EARN it?

    No...I earned it and I shouldn't be punished by having an obstacle placed int he way of my success that forces me to ONLY make 2 a day.
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  11. #51
    Hero LOOON375's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ushurak View Post
    I personally feel like we got punished for it.

    I hope that punishing success does not become a trend.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ushurak View Post
    I do? Please show me where I made any statement in correlation to myself and how I think the Devs feel about me.
    I didn't bash Turbine...I stated fact ..."logic and reasoning".
    I quoted your previous post where you state that "I personally feel like we got punished"

    At the end of the day, no quest in this game was "originally intended" to be completed in mere seconds.

    The fact they made any change at all, that specifically targets that exact "shortcut", is pretty much all the response that is needed from the devs as to why they did it.

    That wasn't the only change they made either, and I highlighted some of the other changes that were made to "slow things down" in my previous posts.

    Yeah, they are so trying to punish the players by adding a minute or so to a quest.

    I would think that it's pretty obvious why they made the change, but apparently not.

    You knew when starting this thread why they did it.
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  12. #52
    Community Member Coyopa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ushurak View Post
    Why was it fair?

    You EARNED that 39 second run.
    You met the expectations that Devs set in the quest.
    You ran it, you picked up the stones, destroyed the cauldrons and killed Relig.

    EARNED!

    If I go to work for someone and they tell me that I will make $100.00 for every "XYZ" I make and most people are making on average 2 a day but I come along and through my own efforts and intellect I figure out a way, without breaking any company rules, to do make 6 a day....does that mean I DIDN'T EARN it?

    No...I earned it and I shouldn't be punished by having an obstacle placed int he way of my success that forces me to ONLY make 2 a day.
    Well, while I can see the point you're trying to make, for the most part the analogy does not hold up well - in spite of the fact that I have had that actually happen to me at a previous job. It comes down to the expectations of those who are in charge of setting the objectives/targets. Turbine has some target in mind for how much experience you can reasonably earn in a given time. Unfortunately, a 39 second quest completion is obscenely faster than they had expected - which leads me to believe that Turbine believes the majority of players to be flower-sniffers who take their time and sniff all the flowers every time. I think the spectrum of players is such that those people are at one end, while the hard-core xp/min zergers are at the other end, and everyone else falls somewhere between them. I'm not exactly a zerger, but I definitely not a dedicated flower-sniffer. I've never even once read the text of the quest-givers dialogs for these quests (in fact, I've never even read Relig's dialog!), but I do seek out optionals that are worth the time.

    So, the change to the quest is fair when viewed from the perspective that super-fast completions violated Turbine's arbitrarily-selected xp/min targets. From the perspective that players are more clued in to dungeon design (and will always find the weak points in any dungeon's design) than the dungeon designers, it is unfair. Unfortunately, this second perspective is irrelevant.

  13. #53
    Community Member Cyreonx's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    I ran this after the "fix" and my biggest beef is that when you do work your way around to the boss fight there is so much dungeon alert that can't really fight. I had a party of 4 and 2 pocket healers and had to repeatedly do a rescue mission for soul stones. Either cut back on the spawns in that room or loosen the DA trigger.

  14. #54
    Community Member Ushurak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LOOON375 View Post
    You knew when starting this thread why they did it.
    I had a clue...but does that make my assumption correct?
    I think so and so do you...but I would like to think I am wrong because If I am right then my other assumption about successful players being punished would be the only logical conclusion to that line of thinking.

    I could have started the thread with "Hey Turbine, you are a bunch of (insert your own words)...WHY are you punishing the successes of an intelligent player base?"

    1) This would not have been nice at all.
    2) While at times it is difficult, I don't wish to come on like a freight train right off the bat.
    3) They may respond to that kind of thread with their real intentions which may not be at all what I assumed and then I would be embarrassed for jumping to conclusions. I have seen people do this and it is crude...to put it mildly.

    SO, I start off with what I ran into, then I follow up with retorts to what I already know will be the most likely answers from the player base and finish with handing the Devs a proper answer just in case they know that if they give an answer that makes some of us feel like they are saying they nerfed us and cause the kobald union to go on the march again.

    And who knows...maybe, their intention wasn't to nerf it...maybe they really are concerned because maybe U17 won't be out as soon as they expected and they know that by and large we have already run MotU into the ground and are starting to get antsy again.

    I think, if this is the case, that there are much better ways to "slow us down" ... like maybe:

    DDO OPTIONAL DAYS ARE HERE. Now through "XYZ" all xp rewarded from optionals will be doubled.
    All Eberron Epic XP now increased by 15%
    Plus 3 loot bonus to all Eberron Epic Content

    Until there is an official explanation that says otherwise (even a flimsy one that is easily refuted), it feels like punishment of success.

    "I came to the darkside for cookies; but when I became too dark...they took my cookies away"
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  15. #55
    Community Member t0r012's Avatar
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    . Until there is an official explanation that says otherwise (even a flimsy one that is easily refuted), it feels like punishment of success.
    There needs not be an official explanation.
    They did not like the way the quest was run , so they changed it.

    The are doing no "punishment of success" nor "picking winners or losers" or catering to the 47%.

    It is their game want it played the way I was desigined to be played , so they made a change to the quest. They don't need to explain anything to you cause you feel entitled.
    Move along , Nothing to see here

  16. #56
    Community Member Todesnymphe's Avatar
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    Of course everything has different reasons for playing.
    And I think finding "exploits" to complete quests is a perfectly valid one. It's essentially the will and ability to outwit the GM and I can totally understand how doing so feels like an accomplishment.

    What I don't quite understand, however, is why anyone would run it over and over and over. I mean, really, is getting XP as fast as possible the main goal of this game? Is that all?

    Ok, I am a flowersniffer. I don't mind if a quest takes a long time to complete, as long as I have something to do. Ok, maybe I am just old fashioned.

    Also, I think not every character should be able to complete every optional. Sure, soloing a quest is a good thing when you have noone around to play with, but, really, this is an MMO. MMO's are played in a group. So, maybe it would be a good thing to promote that group feeling by putting in more optionals that require the odd high skill lvl for at least one character - like a really high jump skill to jump to a lever that opens a secret door with a chest behind or a reeeeallly slippery piece of floor that cannot be jumped over but requires an extremely good balance skill to get to the lever. I'd welcome such things.

  17. #57
    Community Member Coyopa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todesnymphe View Post
    What I don't quite understand, however, is why anyone would run it over and over and over. I mean, really, is getting XP as fast as possible the main goal of this game? Is that all?
    When you have 15m to 20m experience points to earn to get your destinies and twists of fate set up the way you want, then you run quests like this over and over again over multiple play sessions. No, the goal is not to get xp as fast as possible. The goal is to get the destinies leveled as fast as possible so you can get back to doing things that are actually fun. My monk has a 4/1/1 set of twists (Sense Weakness, Legendary Tactics, Brace for Impact) and my rogue has a 4/2/1 set of twists (Sense Weakness, Walking with Wind, Brace for Impact) and he'll swap Walking with Wind for Hail of Blows when he gets a new striding item (Quiver of Alacrity here I come.....someday, uh, hopefully maybe perhaps).

    I also got my rogue to max destiny points in Shiradi Champion to make it easier to farm some gear on him. So, until you actually have to do a lot of epic destiny farming, then you simply will not understand why people would run quests like this one and House of Rusted Blades until their eyes bleed. (For the record, I think HoRB is more fun than HoDU, but I don't really run that quest in groups - nearly always solo or with a friend at the most).

  18. #58
    Community Member Ushurak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by t0r012 View Post
    There needs not be an official explanation.
    They did not like the way the quest was run , so they changed it.

    The are doing no "punishment of success" nor "picking winners or losers" or catering to the 47%.

    It is their game want it played the way I was desigined to be played , so they made a change to the quest. They don't need to explain anything to you cause you feel entitled.
    The problem with your logic is that we WERE running it the way intended...as I have already CLEARLY pointed out.

    Now, if their intention was to make us do the optionals theny shouldn't have made them OPTIONAL...they should have made them part of teh quest objective.
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  19. #59
    Community Member Nickademus42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ushurak View Post
    Even though I have already retorted most arguments already, I will still ask WHY...
    I have read all current 3 pages of this thread and you seem to still want an honest, courteous answer to this. Yet, I think deep down you know what the situation actually is and are merely disappointed it came to be.

    It's not a matter of punishing you or any other player, yet that is a side effect. Here is a section from the 3.0 Ed DMG instructing a DM on handling unbalanced PCs in a table-top setting. While the aspects of an MMO are different, the result of a poor design decision remains relatively the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by DMG
    Sometimes, though, the unexpected will happen. The character may defeat a villain, foiling what the villian (and you) thought was an unstoppable escape plan, and gain a vorpal sword that you neer intended to fall into their hands. PCs entrusted to deliver an artifact to its rightful owner may decide to simply keep it instead. Or, even more likely, the combination of some new acquisition with an item or spell or power a character already has will prove unbalancing in a way you didn't foresee.

    When a mistake is made, and a player character ends up too powerful, all is not yet lost. In fact, it's almost never difficult to simply increase the challenges that the character faces to keep him or her from breezing through encounters. However, this way of solving the problem can be unsatisfying, and it can mean that the encounters become too difficult for the other PCs. At the same time, as already noted, it's never fun to lost some aspect of your character (a new spell, a new item, a new power) that turns out to be unbalancing. From the player's point of view, it's not his or her fault.
    The section goes on to describe how to deal with the problem in-game or out-of-game. None of the options translate well into an MMO however. The simple matter is, the designers made a mistake in evaluating the HoDU (which humans tend to do). So how the players have an ability, to zerg the quest for XP, that the devs did not foresee.

    Had they noticed this and fixed it before the quest went live, no one would be complaining that the quest takes to long. It's the fact that we were given the shiny XP source for our good strategies and now it has to be taken away that leaves us feeling punished. It's not our fault.

    But while it may be Turbine's fault, I can't really fault them for making a mistake, nor do I blame them for changing the quest to fix it. When the DM drops the ball and messes up, the players should cut him/her some slack and simply move on. I think you already knew that Ushurak.
    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    He can, he just thinks Elminster is a tool.

  20. #60
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ushurak View Post
    ...
    Until there is an official explanation that says otherwise (even a flimsy one that is easily refuted), it feels like punishment of success.
    Official Explanation

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