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  1. #21
    The Hatchery Aurora1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pHo3nix View Post
    And your examples demonstrate what? In a game, once you bought it, things are supposed to be fair..you can pay what you want in cosmetics and convenience, but you shouldn't be able to circumvent game rules or obtain unfair advantages.

    If you got a porsche and i got a 500 there's nothing wrong at all, unless we are supposed to make a fair race, in which case we should both have the same car
    So you agree with me and disagree in the same post? You are saying the same thing I am. We are not in competition with each other so it DOESN'T matter if I have a porsche and you have a fiat.

    My example demosntrates that if you have money and spend it on things that save you time that doesn't equal cheating.

    It's really not that hard to grasp. Cheating would be doing something that you, as my opposition, are unable to do.

    1. I'm not playing against you, I'm playing against the game.

    2. You can buy whatever I buy if you so choose.

    There is no "unfair advantage" We are not in competion with each other. Also you can buy exactly what anyone else buys if you so choose. Or are you complaining how some people have more money the others?

    FWIW, I don't buy much from the store, but I don't get why people are calling others who do cheats.
    Last edited by Aurora1979; 12-15-2012 at 06:18 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by xanvar View Post
    I believe my left thumb is Gimp. I think I need to reroll.
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  2. #22
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    I don't intend to buy any of those things (stone of exp, raid timer bypass, etc) but I don't really mind their existence either.
    If it funds the game in some sort, it serves its purpose to me.

    I know that it is not very good for new players to get stoned, and this can cause some trouble,
    but for nearly 5 k tp, it will probably not be the brandnew player anyway.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memnir View Post
    .
    .
    .

    .
    .
    Memnir wins thread... yet again.

    the official home of LOLWUT

    LONG LIVE R.O.G.U.E ! Pay2Win AND PROUD
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  4. #24
    Community Member pHo3nix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noinfo View Post
    The whole game is PTW, if you have spent any money at all you have access to stuff others don't and you know what I don't care.
    Pay2win =/= pay2play..
    Cannith: Hazrael--Nyal--Thalax

  5. #25
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pHo3nix View Post
    So, would you find the game less fun without the ddo store?
    That's not even close to what he said or implied. Where did you even get this, or are you just now degrading to the point of arguing for the sake of it?

    This is what he said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonos View Post
    the winner enjoys the game more. So you might be right in that regard

    He said. "The WINNER enjoys the game more"

    The fact that you (pHo3nix) expects him to play the game you think it should be played is atrocious. You play your way, let other people play their way.

    Maybe I should berate you to buy more stuff to validate that you're still playing this game. Humm.. you would like that?

  6. #26
    Community Member noinfo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pHo3nix View Post
    Pay2win =/= pay2play..
    Proof?
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  7. #27
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noinfo View Post
    Proof?
    There isn't any.

    You buy a Pack and you now have access to items and gear that people who did not buy the pack won't, Ergo it's Pay 2 Win

    That is why these topics and rants are full of fail from their inception.

  8. #28
    Community Member pHo3nix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noinfo View Post
    Proof?
    I buy CoD, you buy CoD, we both payed to play and we both play at the same level. This is pay2play

    I buy CoD, you buy CoD and then you buy some "legal" cheats for CoD, that's pay2win.

    If they add new maps and make us pay for them, i can choose not to buy them, you can buy them and that's still pay2play, i will just miss out the new content, but we are even in the content we both own.

    Clear enough?
    Cannith: Hazrael--Nyal--Thalax

  9. #29
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pHo3nix View Post
    If they add new maps and make us pay for them, i can choose not to buy them, you can buy them and that's still pay2play, i will just miss out the new content, but we are even in the content we both own.

    Clear enough?
    But this is not true at all in regards to DDO. The new maps bring better gear, and thus give an edge in the content we both own, ergo.. Pay2Cheat... Blah blah blah..

    You don't have a point, really. You don't. Start dumping cash into the Store to justify the venting you are doing, and stop harassing people who are paying your meal ticket.

  10. #30
    Community Member noinfo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pHo3nix View Post
    I buy CoD, you buy CoD, we both payed to play and we both play at the same level. This is pay2play

    I buy CoD, you buy CoD and then you buy some "legal" cheats for CoD, that's pay2win.

    If they add new maps and make us pay for them, i can choose not to buy them, you can buy them and that's still pay2play, i will just miss out the new content, but we are even in the content we both own.

    Clear enough?
    Not even close.

    You are now making abitary decisions based on your opinion of what is "part of the game" and what is not.

    The person who owns that particular content has access to materials/rewards specific to that content, if those are superior then when they return to the same content you are not "equal" at all.

    Your example is further flawed. Person stones to 16 and you work your way to 16, how are they your superior? how are they advantaged exept over time. You could argue that they are disadvantaged by not having gear at those levels.

    This is a game, people play it to have fun. Many who will use this do so to avoid parts of the game they percieve are not fun, this is the only win in this situation and nothing else. People who do not have access to funds to do this can still level the old fashion way and achieve the same ends.
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  11. #31
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noinfo View Post
    Not even close.

    You are now making abitary decisions based on your opinion of what is "part of the game" and what is not.

    The person who owns that particular content has access to materials/rewards specific to that content, if those are superior then when they return to the same content you are not "equal" at all.

    Your example is further flawed. Person stones to 16 and you work your way to 16, how are they your superior? how are they advantaged exept over time. You could argue that they are disadvantaged by not having gear at those levels.

    This is a game, people play it to have fun. Many who will use this do so to avoid parts of the game they percieve are not fun, this is the only win in this situation and nothing else. People who do not have access to funds to do this can still level the old fashion way and achieve the same ends.
    ^ This!

    I dunno about others, but to me the P2W cries are getting trite.

  12. #32
    Hatchery Hero Sonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pHo3nix View Post
    So you think that most of the money they are doing with the pay2cheat items are invested to make the game better? That must be the reason why the number of pay2cheat items and bugs grow each patch/update Oh wait, bugs aren't good features, nvm

    You know that I was talking about content. Not the whole breaking stuff while actually trying to make it better.

    The point is. I haven't even bought the darn box, but you can't tell.. you wanna know why? You aren't playing my game.

    So it only bothers you when you choose to let it bother you.

    At my DDO spiritual camp (only 5000TP code), I can teach you my magnificent method of not giving two [expletive deleted]s what other people do that helps them enjoy the game. It's pure and total freedom my fine forum friend. Truth be told, and you didn't hear it from me, (*in hush tones) you can enjoy this new found freedom in game without spending a single dime.

  13. #33
    Hatchery Hero Sonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pHo3nix View Post
    I buy CoD, you buy CoD, we both payed to play and we both play at the same level. This is pay2play

    I buy CoD, you buy CoD and then you buy some "legal" cheats for CoD, that's pay2win.

    If they add new maps and make us pay for them, i can choose not to buy them, you can buy them and that's still pay2play, i will just miss out the new content, but we are even in the content we both own.

    Clear enough?
    I suppose this analogy MIGHT work... hmm lemme see. Ok, I buy EDs and my guildie(and this part is real) doesn't buy EDs. We go into the PVP pit and I decimate him with muh fandagled "legal" cheats as you say.

    Ah but unfortunately, in this case, we give two flying squirrels about PVP and therefore are never ever in direct competition. Yup we play this style of play called PvE.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by noinfo View Post
    The whole game is PTW, if you have spent any money at all you have access to stuff others don't and you know what I don't care.
    To put the stone of experience that everyone is in uproar about into perspective lets look at the other xp giving items that have been sold in the store:

    30% xp pot ~ 1,313,550 xp value for a 3+ life
    20% Tome of learning ~875,700 xp for a 3+ life, this doesn't even include the +50% first time boost it gives
    Stone of Experience ~ 2,040,000 xp value for 3+ life.

    Lets not even talk about the bravery bonus that is only available to TR's and those that P2P (either VIP's or chimes from the store)

    So, yes it is of greater value than what was already being sold, but it is not like Turbine hasn't been selling xp int he store for a while. Personally I agree that the stone of experience does great harm to a new player, and think a good change would be to make it only work on lives 2-n (yes I know vets make new toons too, but really how hard is it to level through a first life). While I think that would be a good change, I am not going to lose sleep over it -- I'm just going to accept that there will be a lot of new lvl16's that will need a lot of help learning the game.

    From a P2W standpoint the adventure packs and epic destinies are the greatest contributor to it. Without loot that is only available in P2P packs/expansions and epic destiny's your not going to do too well at end game. Someone paying to skip a few hours of leveling (all the stone of experience is) is only buying a convenience item.. the person having access to all the adventure packs and Epic destinies is buying a huge advantage.

    So it is great that everyone can get self-righteous over a few levels, but from a rational standpoint your arguments are hollow.

    Now I do believe there is a red line, however; bug fixes sold in the store (additional /stuck's per day) and/or items of extreme power that could not be found from questing, would fit that description for me. We are already close on the second one (+2 tomes of fate and the Elite Spider Clut Mask) and I hope never to see the first.

    At the end of the day, this is a business, and they will do what they can to make money. We all should be supportive of that because, without revenue, there is no bug fixes, no new content, no game.

    So please everyone, yell, scream, rant - get it out of your system... just realize that unless you have never purchased a xp elixir, never used a tome of learning, not maintained a BB streak, not used epic destinies, or any gear from content that is not F2P -- your just being hypocritical.

  15. #35
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pHo3nix View Post
    So you think that most of the money they are doing with the pay2cheat items are invested to make the game better? That must be the reason why the number of pay2cheat items and bugs grow each patch/update Oh wait, bugs aren't good features, nvm
    This.

    The common myth that p2cheat money will be allocated to anything else other than implementing more p2cheat is just that, a myth, as evidenced by more issues cropping up than are fixed.

    The people who commonly berrate me in p2w threads are now trapped in their own self contradiction, because they used to be the ones complaining about the massive bugs in this game, and they have also used the justification that p2w will generate revenus that will be used to fix bugs. The more we see them complain about bugs AND support p2w at the same time, the more this myth will become debunked to the rest of the objective masses who read but dont normally jump in and take sides.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  16. #36
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    To put the stone of experience that everyone is in uproar about into perspective lets look at the other xp giving items that have been sold in the store:

    30% xp pot ~ 1,313,550 xp value for a 3+ life
    20% Tome of learning ~875,700 xp for a 3+ life, this doesn't even include the +50% first time boost it gives
    Stone of Experience ~ 2,040,000 xp value for 3+ life.

    Lets not even talk about the bravery bonus that is only available to TR's and those that P2P (either VIP's or chimes from the store)

    So, yes it is of greater value than what was already being sold, but it is not like Turbine hasn't been selling xp int he store for a while. Personally I agree that the stone of experience does great harm to a new player, and think a good change would be to make it only work on lives 2-n (yes I know vets make new toons too, but really how hard is it to level through a first life). While I think that would be a good change, I am not going to lose sleep over it -- I'm just going to accept that there will be a lot of new lvl16's that will need a lot of help learning the game.

    From a P2W standpoint the adventure packs and epic destinies are the greatest contributor to it. Without loot that is only available in P2P packs/expansions and epic destiny's your not going to do too well at end game. Someone paying to skip a few hours of leveling (all the stone of experience is) is only buying a convenience item.. the person having access to all the adventure packs and Epic destinies is buying a huge advantage.

    So it is great that everyone can get self-righteous over a few levels, but from a rational standpoint your arguments are hollow.

    Now I do believe there is a red line, however; bug fixes sold in the store (additional /stuck's per day) and/or items of extreme power that could not be found from questing, would fit that description for me. We are already close on the second one (+2 tomes of fate and the Elite Spider Clut Mask) and I hope never to see the first.

    At the end of the day, this is a business, and they will do what they can to make money. We all should be supportive of that because, without revenue, there is no bug fixes, no new content, no game.

    So please everyone, yell, scream, rant - get it out of your system... just realize that unless you have never purchased a xp elixir, never used a tome of learning, not maintained a BB streak, not used epic destinies, or any gear from content that is not F2P -- your just being hypocritical.
    The stones are IN ADDITION TO and not a REPLACEMENT FOR the xp pots and tomes. The p2w argument is an argument of degree and not an absolute. WHen they ADD to the degree, it impacts the game more.

    Youre stance would be more valid if they were taking all other forms of paid XP bonus out of the game and replacing them with the stones. No comparison is needed however, because the stone is not a replacement, its an addition to the already growing pile of p2w.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  17. #37
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    If it's pay2win does that mean you're all losers for not buying it?

  18. #38
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    But this is not true at all in regards to DDO. The new maps bring better gear, and thus give an edge in the content we both own, ergo.. Pay2Cheat... Blah blah blah..

    You don't have a point, really. You don't. Start dumping cash into the Store to justify the venting you are doing, and stop harassing people who are paying your meal ticket.
    Paying your meal ticket, thats cute. Ive dumped cash into other aspects of this game where no one else is paying my meal ticket. Remember, a few years ago to roughly 2 months ago, I was the person telling all the complainers that if they are still here they should be supporting the game rather than continually harping they will never give Turbine another red cent.

    He has a point, and the people telling him he doesnt are doing so in place of having anything to say that refutes his point, because that refutation doesnt exist.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  19. #39
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    If it's pay2win does that mean you're all losers for not buying it?
    Its more like a legal cheat code actually, similar to what sirgog pointed out.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  20. #40
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    He has a point, and the people telling him he doesnt are doing so in place of having anything to say that refutes his point, because that refutation doesnt exist.
    His point is what exactly?

    As far as I see it, his point is that he has no idea what Pay2Win is.

    Otherwise he comes across as some Turbine Store hater who is just seeking something to get upset about, and they are making an effort to fix things, we have been over that, and you lost that round.

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