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  1. #101
    Community Member eden2760's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    I don't expect that they are manipulated the same way. I happen to know thru experience that there are multiple ways to get to the same objective.

    And, I'm not bawling out the masses. To the contrary, the masses tend to be bawled out by those insisting that only a set number of builds that fit into a narrow set of expectations can or will work.

    I'm bawling out those folk -- the ones who are bawling out the masses -- telling them that they are wrong. The number of builds that will work is seriously more than the set number they keep insisting on.
    Then I misunderstood you, and for that I apologize. As far as builds go, that's one of the things I really enjoy about the game (especially now with EDs), is the wide variety of customization you can do with a character versus cookie cutter builds.
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  2. #102
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eden2760 View Post
    Then I misunderstood you
    It happens. Lots. I sometimes find out after hours of fighting that I'm saying exactly the same thing as someone else -- we are just using different words to express our ideas and we end up talking past each other.

    That is a problem with written words instead of face-to-face conversations where you can see facial expressions or hear intonations that help with understanding mood and intent.

    And, yes, the customization in DDO and the ability to succeed with characters that have widely different starting/ending stats, gear, class mixes, and so on is one of the great things about the game.

    If only the in game avatars were customizable. Hair/skin color, lip shapes, noses -- that isn't really much. Where's fat, short, skinny, tall, pear shaped, beer belly -- all the differences that exist in real people. It is a strange fantasy world where every female elf has exactly the same body, it is just her head that might be different.

  3. #103
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    the masses tend to be bawled out by those insisting that only a set number of builds that fit into a narrow set of expectations can or will work
    Well. I think that is the word you mised in that sentence.

    Only a set number of buids that fit into a narrow set of expectations can or will work well

    People do the unexpected all the time. They can surprise you with their capabilities no doubt.

    But how often can they do what is expected? If you bring someone into a party will they be able to do what you expect them to do?

    You've got folks here who crunch the numbers and some know exactly what dc a character needs to land a spell, trip, stun etc, etc. That goes as well for damage taken per hit and an idea about where your hps need to be to be to make it from heal to heal. On the forums yeah, it's a bit of bashing, in game though most likely the person giving a new player advice is someone they like and trust. You did this as an experiment but would you suggest this build to a new player?
    Last edited by Orratti; 02-02-2013 at 01:43 AM.

  4. #104
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orratti View Post
    Only a set number of buids that fit into a narrow set of expectations can or will work well
    The that which you removed from my original sentence changes the meaning significantly.

    What you wrote makes can or will work well limited to only the narrow set of builds.

    What I wrote, by including the that, makes can or will work well broad and open to a number of builds beyond the scope of the narrow set.

    I included the second that intentionally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orratti View Post
    But how often can they do what is expected? If you bring someone into a party will they be able to do what you expect them to do?
    The problem here, IMO, is that you have a set of expectations that is extremely narrow. As a result, only an extremely narrow set of builds can fulfill your expectations.

    The problem isn't with the builds, it is with the expectations.

    IMO the reason people have the narrow set of expectations is because they do not even know, most of the time, that a different solution actually works better.

    Here are a couple of examples:

    1) Waterworks part 1. How many people run to the first key and then go thru the shrine to the wolves/kobolds and big room with the switch?

    I run to the first key and then run to the second key.

    Why?

    Because it is less backtracking so faster. The bonus is that if the group is weak it has a long clear space behind to retreat along. Going thru the shrine puts a closed door at your back and halls still filled with mobs if you are too weak to force the fight with the wolves/kobolds.

    2) Stormcleave Outpost. How many people clear to the sleeping giant and then go clear the shrine and take on the undead and fire giant?

    I go the opposite way and take on the minotaur.

    Why?

    Because people have trouble spawning the undead in waves and often end up with all of them at once. If things go badly it often happens there. So, before they all decide to rage quit I go get everything else done. That way they know the quest is almost finished and are more likely to stick it out.

    These are simple things not really related to builds but they illustrate that we do a lot of things a particular way just because that is what we learned and we never thought much about doing it differently.

    The problem isn't with builds or strategies or similar things, it is with our holding onto narrow expectations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orratti View Post
    You've got folks here who crunch the numbers and some know exactly what dc a character needs to land a spell, trip, stun etc, etc. That goes as well for damage taken per hit and an idea about where your hps need to be to be to make it from heal to heal.
    I read that Turbine estimates only ~5% of all players post in the forums. I'm seriously in doubt that there are a significant number of lurkers. This means somewhere between 90 and 95% of players don't read or care about what is on the forums.

    The number crunchers are a subset of the forum members. From my experience they are not more than 5-10% of the forum. But, even if they were 40-50% of the forum that is still only 2-3% of all players.

    So, I seriously doubt that this is an issue of real significance in DDO. If anything it is overvalued in the forum because it is over-represented.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orratti View Post
    You did this as an experiment but would you suggest this build to a new player?
    If people keep pressing me even after I've answered this question in various forms multiple times I just might.

  5. #105
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Actually I don't think I did change the meaning of your sentence. What you said was to the effect that others believe only a set number of builds will work. All I did was add well to the end.

    The sentence was describing other people's belief not your own.

    My mistake was believeing that you were trying to prove something. Instead you were trying to see if you could achieve success on a build that was improbable to do so and you did. Congratulations.

    As a side note when I invite someone to a party that I have put up I rarely expect anything from them outside of participation. I could care less what their con or any other stat is. I don't care if they die a million times. My narrow expectations are that they follow instructions on the rare occasion I give any and really I don't even expect them to do that. It matters little to me if the caster can't land his cc, or can't handle the aggro his dps pulls, the trapper blows the boxes, the divine doesn't get their heals off in time, the melees get held and stomped, the ranger kites mobs a mile away or the whole party wipes and we have to start over. Actually a wipe does bother me. Usually because of my own performance not someone else's.

    I'm also not putting up lfms for raids. I'll throw up an lfm for any 6 man quest out there and take whatever comes along because there is nothing to really lose but time. Even if there is some great piece of loot in it there isn't any problem in coming back and farming for it later at a higher lvl or putting up another easily filled lfm. I would be that way with raids if there were more than a couple I could solo or if I knew them very well and had a small part of the group I was certain could handle the quest even if everyone else died.
    Last edited by Orratti; 02-03-2013 at 08:21 PM.

  6. #106
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Well, things have slowed way down with Ruh Roh. I'm trying to play both him and the unnamed character on Khyber but splitting time between servers is a PITA.

    And today was the first games of the soccer season, so it is off watching kids in school soccer -- and everyone plays.

    Still, plugging along, just not making progress real fast ATM.

  7. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Still, plugging along, just not making progress real fast ATM.
    Yes, those late teen levels are difficult for most characters. A little more than heroic, but not quite epic. Looking down the path, they begin to see questing as they've known it is drawing to a close. Soon, everything will be more difficult. The mobs will hit harder and the techniques they have come to rely upon begin to fail DCs. It's no wonder they hang around on the airship and spend their time just browsing the AH. Sometimes, just for fun, they'll join a S/R/E run in Gianthold with a few lower-level guildies. Yet, nostalgia being what it is, the experience gains them little and the loot is vendor trash. They know they should be looking for a good LFM, but the XP at level is dismal and the effort seems wasted. Yes, those late teen levels are difficult.

    I just wish they'd quit leaving their damn armor all over the place.
    The newest computer can merely compound, at speed, the oldest problem in the relations between human beings, and in the end the communicator will be confronted with the old problem, of what to say and how to say it. - Edward R. Murrow (1964)

  8. #108
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Rough night tonight. Got in a group for Finding the Path, ended up in Dream Conspiracy. Got there to find quest in progress and group arriving in bits and pieces. No real indication which way the first character went so, obviously, we chose wrong out of 2 possible directions. Ended up with large number of mobs.

    Ding, ding, ding, raise, ding,all was going according to plan.

    Then, for some inexplicable reason, people started recalling out. Left alone with mobs I managed to run, swing, run, heal, run.... Well, you get the idea. Had them down to the last 3 then I zigged when I should have zagged.

    Recalled and we head back. Only it is same thing all over again. No waiting, just first one there and ye'haw let's go. It was like Custer except we didn't have horses, or bullets, or guns, we just all got ourselves dead.

    When we suggested that maybe it would be better to buff and all go in as a group, the group leader dropped group, then another and Ruh Roh decided it was time for bed.

    So, good night all. More exciting adventures still await.

    Oh, I need 2 bubbles still. Maybe by Monday.

  9. #109
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    What a difference a night makes. Got into a group doing Inspired Quarter quests, ran most on hard but did Dream Conspiracy on both elite and hard. Enough XP to reach L20.

    Observations on getting to L20 on low CON/low HP character are already posted here.

    Time to close this thread and start a new one covering the epic adventures.

    Thank you all for reading and for keeping up with the journey. And thank you to those in tonight's group, anonymous though you all are. It was quick and painless and, thanks to some timely healing in Mindsunder, I managed to remain alive in all quests.

    Oh well, on to bigger, epic adventures.

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