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  1. #21
    Community Member Emurian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9Crows View Post
    a general rule of thumb about advice on anything ...if someones not asking for it they typically dont want it ...
    Untrue IMO, some of the newer players just dont seem to have the courage to ask a TRX for some advice. What I always do is saying: May I give you some tips? You notice that players happily take in advice when offered in a nice way unlike the: Damn gimp, how did you get that idea in your head, you obviously have a bad build etc etc.

    Its all about not pushing them to take on your advice, I always give them some tips to get rid off the biggest flaws in their builds and tell them if they ever want advice, just shoot a tell and il take my time to help them out. Best way imo to let people realise that their toon could be much more then their playing with atm.

    On topic, as for the first post regarding research. Im sorry to say but the forums aren't really that reliable either when it comes to building a toon. I have seen a couple of builds on here that where flawed with their feat selections. Therefor I only look on the forum for inspiration and then alter the build to my own playing style.

    As for strange builds, I find the WF ranger / pally / rogue splash of my guildie Crossy to be somewhat weird. Even more cuz he always uses 2 handers but then again once you play with him you notice that it works. . in his hands that is. I dont write off weird builds straightaway, the build and gear isn't even half the thing that makes the toon, gaming skills can make up for allot of the gimpness that we might perceive about the build =).

    Thats why I never denied a toon with a exotic build, I do make a mental note of the players name if I see him fail utterly in multiple quests but thats about it. Also, I dont grade a toon its effectiveness based upon the amount of kills he makes. My wizard can come out as a top killer in allot of groups by simply nuking and instantkilling everything but allot of times I prefer to toy around a bit and use as much CC as possible. Differen't approach but both just as effective [depending upon the quest some situations demand one out of 2 approaches but their mostly both valid approaches.]

    You just seem to have had the bad luck to end up with a player that indeed had a flawed build and lacking the skills to make up for it. By my guessing he was to stubborn to take on advice, if that, coupled with the fact he died allot and didn't contribute much to the group caused you to rage thats perfectly understandeble. Heres my tip for you when it happens, go smoke a cigarette and continue playing once your calmed down again a bit. That always works for me =p.
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  2. #22
    Hero Gkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    Something needs to be done about this.
    And what did you do that was useful?

    Did you give him advice on areas for improvement in a positive way?
    Did you help him out with equipment or plat to buy equipment?

    Did you do anything at all besides coming to the forums to trash an obviously new player?

  3. #23
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    The game is big.

    Some of the odd-on-the-surface builds may have a workable plan behind them if you push into it ... especially for someone looking to get a past life on a class they hate ;-) I'm running an abomination for a pally past life right now, and honestly I think my ranger PL is going to be just about as screwy.

    We had a shield-using ranger a few years back on G-Land that received much ... verbal focus.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    10 Rogue for very obvious reasons.

    1 special feat, sneak attack damage, UMD skills + trap skills. Fighter for BAB and feats. Monk for TWF and Evasion.
    the 10 rogue got him evasion (except he can't evade... with his armor and all >.> ). if he wanted to be punchy punchy (which he obviously wasn't in MEDIUM armor S&B) he only needed 1 level of monk for that.


    that being said, guy could possibly be decent, despite the haphazard build, if someone could convince him to take off the armor and go fisticuffs with the mobs.
    sounds like someone without a solid handle on the game yet




    however, not all 'gimp' builds... are actually gimps. my husband's current life is pure monk, but his last previous two... there were some SERIOUSLY long pauses before being accepted when he hit some PUGs LFMs. lol. why, you ask? last life was 9 barb 9 fvs 2 rogue, and the life before that was 12 fighter 8 cleric. both classes designed with self-healing melee in mind. the fighter topped out at over 1k HP and tanked EN LOB before he TRed.. the barb life was last man standing in a lag-wiped Elite MA, and handled all the (elite) traps as we leveled. both tough as nails, nearly indestructible. but at first glance, you say "W.T.F.? "
    Last edited by katz; 12-10-2012 at 09:21 AM.

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  5. #25
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    the 10 rogue got him evasion (except he can't evade... with his armor and all >.> ). if he wanted to be punchy punchy (which he obviously wasn't in MEDIUM armor S&B) he only needed 1 level of monk for that.


    that being said, guy could possibly be decent, despite the haphazard build, if someone could convince him to take off the armor and go fisticuffs with the mobs.
    sounds like someone without a solid handle on the game yet




    however, not all 'gimp' builds... are actually gimps. my husband's current life is pure monk, but his last previous two... there were some SERIOUSLY long pauses before being accepted when he hit some PUGs LFMs. lol. why, you ask? last life was 9 barb 9 fvs 2 rogue, and the life before that was 12 fighter 8 cleric. both classes designed with self-healing melee in mind. the fighter topped out at over 1k HP and tanked EN LOB before he TRed.. the barb life was last man standing in a lag-wiped Elite MA. both tough as nails, nearly indestructible. but at first glance, you say "W.T.F.? "
    I really don't see redundancy regarding Evasion as a problem. But judging something to be gimp and useless and treat it like a tumor and bad habit, which is undermining and evolving within the game community and trembling the very foundation of min./max.ing... please, at some point, back off and just ask if you are curious and you might get a whole new perspective.

    If a person like the OP actually wants to learn, that is. But yeah, mocking and trolling is easier. As if the OP was forced to group up with the blamed toon.

    I don't see any justification to blame somebody in this way. In any way, why dopeople first expect the worst of everybody else instead the best? That is the problem. And by best I do not refer to the mathematically best but instead to the best regarding filling a role in the party. If you can fill it, all fine. If you cannot, declined or kicked. That's the way it is.
    Last edited by zwiebelring; 12-10-2012 at 09:32 AM.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    I really don't see redundancy regarding Evasion as a problem. But judging something to be gimp and useless and treat it like a tumor and bad habit, which is undermining and evolving within the game community and trembling the very foundation of min./max.ing... please, at some point, back off and just ask if you are curious and you might get a whole new perspective.

    If a person like the OP actually wants to learn, that is. But yeah, mocking and trolling is easier. As if the OP was forced to group up with the blamed toon.

    I don't see any justification to blame somebody in this way. In any way, why dopeople first expect the worst of everybody else instead the best? That is the problem. And by best I do not refer to the mathematically best but instead to the best regarding filling a role in the party. If you can fill it, all fine. If you cannot, declined or kicked. That's the way it is.
    heh. i never said doubling up the evasion was a bad thing. heck, i have evasion twice on my current rogue build. (currently 3 monk 2 rogue 1 druid). i was just stating that he didn't need 2 levels of monk for evasion, he already had it from rogue. extra feats, however... yay!


    i would not have mocked the subject of the OP's ire. i simply stated what i would be thinking to myself "it seems he might not have a handle on the mechanics of the game". if i noticed him in my group, i probably would have asked pointed questions about why he's got certain classes/levels/feats/equipment and what he's trying to accomplish... and gently point out that he gets no benefit from evasion while using medium armor. and if he's actually contributing to the group in a meaningful fashion, then who cares what he is or what he's wearing. chalk it up to 'weird build, effective player' and keep going.

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  7. #27
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    But judging something to be gimp and useless and treat it like a tumor and bad habit, which is undermining and evolving within the game community and trembling the very foundation of min./max.ing... please, at some point, back off and just ask if you are curious and you might get a whole new perspective.
    Why did you quote her and then go on a tangent about something she had not even mentioned?

    Just wondering.

  8. #28
    The Hatchery samthedagger's Avatar
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    TL; DR: Be as awesome as you can be, and you will teach them more than words can say.

    I still have yet to learn this myself, but... sometimes it is best to just lead by example and leave your advice for your guild chat channel or some other outlet just to get it off your chest. My main is a cleric, and I now have three of them. Along the way I have done some stupid things with my clerics, and I didn't know they were stupid because you rarely see two clerics in the party (unless running BYOH, but that tends to be with more advanced players anyway). Then I will occasionally log into one of my other toons and see other clerics in action. Sometimes I stumble upon a cleric who is just phenomenal and I ask "What do you do to become so awesome?" In my early days of clericing, sometimes the answer was as simple as "implosion." (Yeah, I actually didn't learn to use that spell for months.)

    Now that I have a solid year and a half playing clerics to the hilt I have become a pretty decent player. I can do some pretty cool stuff and I get compliments from other players and sometimes praise. I don't get a whole lot of tells asking me how I became so awesome, but I have received a few, and those are the times I feel I am making a difference in improving the builds of other players. Show other players what you are capable of and eventually they will notice. Someone else already said unsolicited advice is generally unwelcome and it's true. When I was a neophyte cleric the last thing I wanted to hear was advice. I was having enough difficulty just learning the mechanics of the class, let alone how to optimize them. And yes, I was impressed by things at the time which I now consider laughable. And yes, sometimes I bragged over voice chat and some veterans probably silently (or in tells or channels) mused about the gimp cleric bragging that he crit-healed for 250 damage. But it's part of the learning process. I don't know of a single person who came to this game an expert. I continue to learn new things about this game every single day.

    Let them learn, or let them quit if they don't care to take the time to learn. They all do one or the other eventually. I can't tell you how many folks I have quietly added to my "Friends" list who have not moved a single level since the day I added them. Remember this is now a FTP game and a lot of people are casual gamers just trying something new out and aren't as heavily invested in it as those of us who have spent years in the game.

  9. #29
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    I welcome anyone who wants to join me for any quest.

    I care about your personality and attitude, not your build etc.
    Come along, be nice, play well with others... and preferably do not give up when it gets tough.

    I like to do challenging quests though. they are tough.
    a true gimp may die in there with me. He may die a lot! He may become very frustrated.

    That is on him. His choice. If I had an LFM up, it was very honest about what we were doing and on what difficulty. It probably also said that I was taking the first five people to join.

    That may be five gimps. And it may mean no healer too.
    I was honest. So if you bring a gimp with no way to self heal, it is not my fault if you die.

    But I will also help you.
    I will do what my character can to keep you alive and res you if I can too.

    I will never critisize your build.
    (I have been guilty of typing a subtle joke about someone after they said "we" needed a healer though. )
    or your playstyle... gear etc.

    I will naturally assume that if you are dying often, that you are learning your own lessons along the way.

    If you "ASK" me for advice, I will give it.
    in general terms,... I will not tell you exactly how to build your character.
    I will tell you what gear and stats I have (if you ask).

    But honestly, tactics matter more than build or gear any day.
    Agro management most of all.

    I could care less about your HP. Class split. Uber gear... etc.

    If you bring a stack of pots, that tells me more than anything else about how well you plan to contribute to my group.

    Bring pots or wands (or scrolls).
    Cures, removals, restores...etc.

    If at all possible bring a way to rez others.

    And bring a nice friendly "can do" attitude.

    ... and we'll do just fine, or at least have fun trying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  10. #30
    Community Member Miow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I ran with a 9 barbarian 6 bard 5 rogue level 25 finesse light pick wielding halfling about 2-3 weeks ago. He wore white dragonplate and white dragon helm and he jumped around all the time for no apparent reason. He also would check for traps here or there randomly. My guildy and me were in the group with him and three other pugs. We were just mezmorized by him. I have never seen anything like him in 7 years of playing. I was disappointed when the group broke up because this guy took things to a whole new level. My guildy said after the run that his faith in the fun of running in pugs had been restored after this run.
    Lol fricken awesome!

  11. #31
    Community Member Phidius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunker View Post
    ...I could be mistaken, but we were all green at one time. We were all new to the game at least once.
    ...
    I've been green for 6+ years now

    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    I welcome anyone who wants to join me for any quest.

    I care about your personality and attitude, not your build etc.
    Come along, be nice, play well with others... and preferably do not give up when it gets tough.
    ...
    (edited for brevity, not disagreement)
    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    ...
    And bring a nice friendly "can do" attitude.

    ... and we'll do just fine, or at least have fun trying.
    +1 Totally agree
    "I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities" - Vaarsuvius, OoTS #674

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    When the top end players of a game complain about quest difficulty using the justification that newbies should be able to beat elite quests handedly rather than having to learn through failure, this is what happens. An entire new crop of players plays however they want, and they dont gain an understanding of whats best, because the game is so easy that their light pick swinging finesse barbarian is blowing through content. Theres no checks and balances built into any learning curve that will teach people that poor build decisions wont pay off, when those poor build decisions pay off in spades due to the easy buttoning of DDO. You cant give them advice by telling them that their build sucks either, because it doesnt sink in when they have been able to easily complete all quests they have tried on their first attempt, because they will just use that as justification of you being wrong about their character.

    You supported the easy buttons? You supported light pick finesse barbarians and terribad multiclass splits with shields.

    Really Chai, bad players with terrible builds is a NEW thing? Really?
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    Ape_Man does clever trolling nothing more. Don't feed him/her.

  13. #33
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    I am semi famous/infamous among those who know me on Ghallanda or harken back to fernia for my persistence in making dex based finesse warrior centric characters who dump con and strength in a defiant effort to show others that 1( HP is a buffer not a defense and you dont need that buffer if you know what your doing) and 2( being dex based does not gimp out your melee ability, especially if your a rogue as the majority of your DPS comes from your SA and your weapon.

    One of my oldest and most loved characters, who used to regularly run raids as soon as they came out back in the old days when our lvl cap was much lower. But pretty much since the shroud and its hamster wheel of death playstyle affliction I retired him to more casual random adventure.

    These days he is resting at lvl 22 with a split of 13RGE/6FTR/1 ARTEE. He is pure dex/int with a preference for fighting in melee using a single weapon and his swashbucklers buckler. His defensive nature is surprisingly solid, proving to be very hard to put down and capable of very healthy DPS inspite of using a single weapon.

    He is a doublestrike build and his percentage is high enough that usually every 3-4 attacks will see a DS proc. On top of this I have had the pleasure of seeing it work during an assassination strike. Both in on a single target who survived his first save only to be hit by the DS and fail the 2nd save, as well as standing next to two unaware enemies and as I swing I rotate so that the DS if it procs actually hits the 2nd guy and have killed 2 foes with a single AS. Now that is ALOT of fun for me personally.

    Those who encounter him for maybe a casual challenge run or maybe doing a run of something more for loot and need a serious trap taken out or a lock picked I come to aid and they see a guy in light armor with a rapier and a shield and clearly think ***.

    Yet a few fights later and the KC will generally show me in the top 3 killers, the fighters and barbs are sucking down pots or begging for heals as they forsook defensive measures completely. Meanwhile my bag filled with scrolls,wands,pots and weapons for every imaginable foe type one could imagine may keep my loot space limited but I am never ever thinking **** I am sure in need of X and wish I had it.

    Finally he can use a repeater tremendously well. and switches to ranged DPS and kiting if the situation makes it the tactical and practical approach. He is not MELEE nor RANGED but a true hybrid of both. His fighter pre is SD as you may have guessed and his main ED is US although I have found the oddest and most unexpected advantage of his build is virtually all ED can be adapted to synch with and enhance my build in various ways.

    Even GMOF was far more fun then pain to work through. I even at times donned robes and hand wraps just for the fun of it, and frankly since most DPS comes from my SA and wraps the fact my base hand dmg was trivial was an equally trivial issue. The ki blasts where so much fun to play with, and the break from sword and board/repeater to play all DBZ fighter style was a refreshing break.

    The point of this whole long ramble is to highlight how a build someone else might just not "GET" is not always the train wreck you imagine it is for the one using it. New players might make big mistakes, but the ones committed to this game will figure it all out in time, those who lack the drive to are like those at the table top who refuse to spend a few hours a week reading up on game manuals to know what their class can do, Ive seen PnP rogues who never try to flank for some easy SA, casters who only take utility spells and favor fighting with weapons etc. All because they hadnt really read the rules. Then they always ask for what dice to throw etc.

    Dont expect everyone to be the "BEST" as that is highly subject to opinion. For some the best is being hyper specialized and utterly incompetent in every area expect that niche. Some see the best as never being dependent upon another and only allies with others to be a more effective larger version of what they are like a lap top vs the power of a series of networked towers. Both are essentially the same in purpose and abilities one just is more redundant and therefore less likely to fail in a task due to being broken down.

    Also not everyone is the best in all types of fights. My rogue typically abhors and ignores undead heavy content no matter the promised rewards. But you can give him a kiss and a copper to get him to go make war against fleshy fellow drow all day long.

  14. #34
    Community Member Bekki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunker View Post
    1: You could toss him a weapon, some other gear. Help him out, and guide him to become better.

    2: Post on the forums berating the random pugger for doing nothing more than being him.

    I could be mistaken, but we were all green at one time. We were all new to the game at least once.

    -Bunk
    Bout sums it up...

    I have had my share of... Abysmal... builds over the years...

    Maybe this player was going for Rogue 12/ Ftr4/ Monk 2?
    While maybe not the best, as long as they can do their job.
    Is it all that bad?

    Honestly... I never planned to have Bekki wind up as a Fighter 12/ Ranger 6/ Rogue 2...

    I took fighter.... Realized I didn't have the Dex to go TWF... Took 2 Lvl's of Ranger...
    Oh, Lvl 3 ranger gets die hard... Yup; I did... Took Lvl 3...


    Added another level for spells...

    And then realized I had absolutely no plan for what to do next!

    So I took two more Ranger Lvl's for Tempest...

    Finally around level 18... I went to one of the masters... Sig Treant.
    And he helped me correct a lot of mistakes...

    Bekki was never what you would call... Optimal...

    But he held his own when it counted...
    Granted there may be a lot of crazy builds out there but
    Half the fun is seeing what other people like to do!

    And Bunker is right... We were all new once too.

    Just my 2cp's....

    *Bekki pours everyone a drink...
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  15. #35
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    All i can say is that if you don't understand how a build works, you don't know for certain that it doesn't work. All you know is that it isn't a "forum approved" build. I'm sure many of the now accepted builds were considered quite odd when they were first attempted.

  16. #36
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Rather than quote a dozen posts:

    1) I actually did try to help this person. I offered him plenty of advice on a TWF build that might work with his mixture of classes that the fighter chimed in on. I found a pretty nice bastard sword in a chest during the quest and gave it to him (he was actually rather excited). And, I was not rude in any way to him, I simply stated he really needs to rethink his build if he wants it to be very effective; the fighter and druid agreed with me and were also giving advice.

    2) His performance in the quest was, to say the least, lackluster. I mean no disrespect to him, but if the druid didn't have a pet that pulled the switches to get into the prison chambers, he could have done that job and the quest would have been the same result with one less person. He was, more or less, baggage we dragged around. He didn't die, nor did he help in any way that was noticeable.

    3) I really don't see the need to use a shield unless you're trying to hold aggro and tank, or it augments your class's abilities (like a devotion shield for a cleric). I explained this to him and he seemed adamant that the doublestrike gained from the shield was not only good dps, but better than other builds. His performance said otherwise; I actually watched a mob's HP that we were both attacking and I only saw my hits, as his were so infinitesimally small that it seemed to barely register on the HP bar.

    4) Myself, I have three main characters on Argo; Arthies (3rd life shintao healing-amp monk), Archarias (7th life caster-only character, currently on second cleric life), and Ishtaris (3rd life ranged-only character currently on a ranger AA life). I run frequently with some of the top players on the server, but I don't consider myself part of the herd. I don't claim to be top tier DPS, nor do I think I am. In fact, as some of you might know on these forums, I make builds like pure enchantment-focused archmages, rogue mechanics, and pure 20 ranger AA's. I know the point of building what you want to have fun and ignoring the naysayers around me. My hatred of exploiter builds and other absurdly OP multiclassing is fairly well known on the Argo server. I in no way consider myself an elitist but I won't hesitate to say something about a build just doesn't function correctly; I'll also be the first to say play to have fun.

  17. #37
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Advice is like a Blur Buff.

    Don't start tossing it out unless someone asks for it.

  18. #38
    Community Member Purkilius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Advice is like a Blur Buff.

    Don't start tossing it out unless someone asks for it.
    Well said ^^
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  19. #39
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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by danzig138 View Post
    I know. It's crazy that some folks might just like to try things out. Freaks.

    You misspelled "anything".
    Ditto. I mean, I remember this one time I played with a guy who had an extra thumb. Another time, I played with a guy whose right arm was where his left leg should have been, and he didn't even have a left leg!

    Or did you mean characters?
    After a fair amount of reading forum posts, the guy with the extra thumb comment really made me smile. Thank you.

  20. #40
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    Really Chai, bad players with terrible builds is a NEW thing? Really?
    No, people just use those players as justification when trying to push their agenda, when they really want is to be able to sleepwalk for XP.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

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