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Thread: Pure Drow Rogue

  1. #21
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    STR: 8
    DEX: 20
    CON: 6
    INT: 20
    CHA: 10






  2. #22
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    Being a dps Rogue means good news and bad news.

    The good news is that you do ALOT of damage.

    The bad news is that you do ALOT of damage...and that tends to generate ALOT of aggro.

    Part of being a good Rogue is knowing how to manage that aggro. Not every group (or even not many groups) has an Intimitank in them that can acquire and hold aggro, leaving you free to backstab to your heart's content. One thing that I've learned to do with my Assassin is to develop a rhythm to my attacks....sort of a "Stab Stab...break...Stab Stab" kinda thing. When that doesn't work, I'll either try Diplomacy or just turtle up for a couple of seconds and try to let the mob know that, despite my having just removed his spleen, I'm really not as much of a threat as the HOrc guy with the giant two-handed axe over there.

    My Rogue is a Drow Assassin, DEX-based with a side order of INT to raise his Assassinate DCs. Therigar (I think you said it) is right- you have to be willing to get your DC into the 50s for that ability to be one that can be consistently counted upon in all content- Epic Elite is, as I've so often said, almost a game unto itself. So you can't ignore the need to raise not only your DEX and CON, but your INT as well. Fortunately, you can spend points to increase INT (or DEX) in the Shadowdancer ED (2 points will increase the ability score by 1 and you can do that up to certainly four and perhaps five times, so just when you need the highest INT-derived DCs, you have the ability to raise it). Absolutely you do sacrifice some hitpoints and you lose the bonus Feat that humans get. But it can and does work, even if the path to success is a bit trickier than others are.
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  3. #23
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkForte View Post
    Pretty much every TWF build takes power attack for +5 damage per hit. You're taking a feat to do 5 LESS damage per hit. Sounds awesome.
    no rogue should be taking power attack. it's worse than precision unless you're already hitting on a 2 (hint: you aren't already hitting on a 2). and i don't mean, worse against an enemy with fortification. i mean worse against all enemies. period. adding 5% to your to-hit is way stronger than power attack unless you're doing something *really* screwy. and by that, i mean that a properly built with capstone rogue assassin would literally need to have a *negative* amount of damage apart from sneak attack in order for power attack to be better.

    you can laugh all you want about the better dex, but it really does help with saving throws. with all the stuff in the game that lets you not fail on a 1 *if* you have a high enough modifier, getting your reflex to that point is a pretty big deal.

    now, i'm not advocating dumping strength. but you're going to be pretty danged close in terms of your damage, particularly since even strength builds should be investing in enough dex for improved sneak attack (meaning we're going to see a lot fewer with full points and level-ups in strength). dex builds are lower DPS as a general rule, it is true. it is also true that the amount they are lower dps by is not a particularly huge amount. you can rant and rave all you want about it, and ultimately... it really isn't that big of a deal. it's a few points of damage per swing less, and it will still leave you (if properly built otherwise) with extremely good DPS.

  4. #24
    The Hatchery DarkForte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    no rogue should be taking power attack. it's worse than precision unless you're already hitting on a 2 (hint: you aren't already hitting on a 2). and i don't mean, worse against an enemy with fortification. i mean worse against all enemies. period. adding 5% to your to-hit is way stronger than power attack unless you're doing something *really* screwy. and by that, i mean that a properly built with capstone rogue assassin would literally need to have a *negative* amount of damage apart from sneak attack in order for power attack to be better.

    you can laugh all you want about the better dex, but it really does help with saving throws. with all the stuff in the game that lets you not fail on a 1 *if* you have a high enough modifier, getting your reflex to that point is a pretty big deal.

    now, i'm not advocating dumping strength. but you're going to be pretty danged close in terms of your damage, particularly since even strength builds should be investing in enough dex for improved sneak attack (meaning we're going to see a lot fewer with full points and level-ups in strength). dex builds are lower DPS as a general rule, it is true. it is also true that the amount they are lower dps by is not a particularly huge amount. you can rant and rave all you want about it, and ultimately... it really isn't that big of a deal. it's a few points of damage per swing less, and it will still leave you (if properly built otherwise) with extremely good DPS.
    The power attack thing wasn't meant to be taken literally, and I think my point flew over your head. My point is burning a feat and building to do less damage makes no sense from a min-max standpoint.

    On the reflex thing... I'm yet to find a use for bumping it past the low fifties.

    My main point on dex rogues is... you're ultimately building for less dps, something that you seem to agree with me on. When considering there's no use in having a 68 reflex (like the ss above), and how little use the extra AC from your dex gives on EE, I see no point in building for dex and having any more than the needed for ISA.
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  5. #25
    Community Member Gunga's Avatar
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    Huh.

  6. #26
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    ac works pretty well when monsters are blind. which also makes all your attacks sneak attacks.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    I play a DEX and INT based human rogue. To suggest that he basically pikes every quest is an insult and demonstrates a serious lack of comprehension about a rogue's capabilities. To quibble over the need to farm gear is just wrong -- every character is going to farm gear. It really doesn't matter what gear it is that they are farming. Everyone is going to do it.
    The comprehension issue is yours. I said until you get those very few and very specific Dex based items you are gimping yourself and piking in groups.

    A first life Dex based Rogue is most likely not going to have those weapons, unless farmed on another toon. And you dont need to farm specific gear for a Str based Rogue to be adequate. Any gear-at-level which they can use is going to be far more effective on a Str based Rogue than a Dex based Rogue unless that gear is Str/Dex for +hit and +damage.

    You dont need to get defensive either. I wish Dex based Rogues were viable. I would play one. But outside of those specific weapons they simply arent. And this doesnt even get in to the question of DR breaking.

  8. #28
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xaerr View Post
    STR: 8
    DEX: 20
    CON: 6
    INT: 20
    CHA: 10





    Clearly a gimp who can't succeed. ;-)

    Love the CON, btw. Curious, did you LR into that?
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  9. #29
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    no started the build, and kept it that way, con is a crutch.
    im looking for a +con +tendon slice goristo hide on thelanis, if you can help me out.

  10. #30
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    you're going to be pretty danged close in terms of your damage, particularly since even strength builds should be investing in enough dex for improved sneak attack
    I intentionally kept away from this and discussing epic levels and epic feats. But, this is correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasparion View Post
    The comprehension issue is yours. I said until you get those very few and very specific Dex based items you are gimping yourself and piking in groups.
    No, my reading comprehension is just fine. You are completely incorrect in your perspective because my rogue happens to be a first life rogue who does not pike now and did not pike in getting to epic levels. The entire discussion about why post U14 rogues are going more and more DEX based is lost on you (which is the part about why 5 points more damage not being meaningful).

    Heroic content is really a cakewalk for a DEX rogue and one in which they will be at or near the top in kills. Their damage is so high due to sneak damage that they have no need to pike -- they are at or near the top DPS in any group even when relying on weapon finesse and taking the drop in STR damage that comes from using that feat.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkForte View Post
    You made my point for me.
    I don't view rogues as feat starved. After Toughness, TWF, ITWF and GTWF what feats do I really need? I have 3 feats free to do whatever I want to do. I get 2 more in epic levels, although 1 is certainly going to ISA.

    Rogues have the greatest amount of flexibility in the other 4 feats of maybe any character class. They can go with precision (as has been suggested). They can go with dodge, mobility and spring attack (if they are hoping to boost dodge bonuses). They can go with skill focuses in traps or search or umd. They have a lot of latitude depending on how the player wants to use them.

    Using one of those feats on weapon finesse is hardly a challenge. But, the good thing is that they are free to use the one free in-game feat exchange to swap it out if that is what they'd prefer.

    Personally, I went for Toughness, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, ISA and IC:Pierce (which I'll swap for IC:Slash when my own eMGs are finished). That leaves me with 2 feats to do what I want with. Since I have some of the DEX weapons we've talked about I don't need finesse.

    So, I don't see the class as feat starved at all when I have 2 feats just hanging out doing nothing. (Well, 3 actually since my rogue is a human. )

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkForte View Post
    the conclusion is your dex-rogue is burning a feat on a feat-starved class to do 7% less dps when using the best TWF weapons in the game (namely celestia and alchemical khopeshes) and hence being forced into using a pair of niche weapons that have to rely on temporary augments to break DR and even then have mediocre critical profile and base damage, just to be somewhat competitive.
    I didn't do the comparison with DEX v STR. I did it STR v STR.

    The best TWF weapons in the game for non-rogues might well be Celestia and alchemical khopeshes (khopeshi ?). That doesn't mean they are the best weapons for a rogue. This is because we need to look at more than just the weapon profiles, we need to look at the whole context of the damage output.

    For some rogues these will indeed be the best weapons. For DEX rogues they are not always the best weapons. But, as the post from Xaerr shows, even DEX rogues can use the weapons when they are most appropriate.

    Lastly, there are many ways to break DR. eMG with a ToD ring gets past virtually everything except slashing DR. Every weapon in the game except Celestia (or others that are light damage -- I have to admit I don't know what those might be) will encounter those situations where there is a DR v their weapon type. I think I can live with that problem.

  11. #31
    Community Member Mercureal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post

    <snip>

    Lastly, there are many ways to break DR. eMG with a ToD ring gets past virtually everything except slashing DR. Every weapon in the game except Celestia (or others that are light damage -- I have to admit I don't know what those might be) will encounter those situations where there is a DR v their weapon type. I think I can live with that problem.
    Quick question - are you saying here that Holy on a ToD ring works with weapon attacks? I thought it only worked with handwraps. If that's what you're saying, it'd be great news, but I'm thinking I misinterpreted you.
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  12. #32
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkForte View Post
    The power attack thing wasn't meant to be taken literally, and I think my point flew over your head. My point is burning a feat and building to do less damage makes no sense from a min-max standpoint.

    On the reflex thing... I'm yet to find a use for bumping it past the low fifties.

    My main point on dex rogues is... you're ultimately building for less dps, something that you seem to agree with me on. When considering there's no use in having a 68 reflex (like the ss above), and how little use the extra AC from your dex gives on EE, I see no point in building for dex and having any more than the needed for ISA.
    my experience has been that unless you're investing in dex fairly extensively, you won't have enough reflex save to make the hardest epic difficulty saves on a 1. doesn't necessarily need to be a +68, but investing in dex will give you a much better save than not investing in it.

    it really isn't even a huge DPS increase to go strength-based. you'll still do almost as much damage, and your damage will still be very impressive. it will be slightly lower, but you're still going to be quite capable of out-DPSing most other classes just fine.

  13. #33
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercureal View Post
    Quick question - are you saying here that Holy on a ToD ring works with weapon attacks? I thought it only worked with handwraps. If that's what you're saying, it'd be great news, but I'm thinking I misinterpreted you.
    No. I'm typing faster than my brain thinks things thru.

  14. #34
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Lastly, there are many ways to break DR. eMG with a ToD ring gets past virtually everything except slashing DR. Every weapon in the game except Celestia (or others that are light damage -- I have to admit I don't know what those might be) will encounter those situations where there is a DR v their weapon type. I think I can live with that problem.
    A rogue that does not rely on Dex weapons can build an excellent DR beater for every important DR: HB Silver of GLOB, HB Cold Iron of GCOB, etc. Consider that the 3d6 of Greater Bane alone trumps the 9.15 from Disintegration.

    I think it may be worth explicitly investigating where these disagreements may be starting...

    -a rogue can put some or all level-ups into Dex
    -a rogue can have their highest starting stat be Dex
    -a rogue can use only Dex weapons
    -a rogue can take Weapon Finesse

    All of these could fall under the umbrella of "Dex rogue". I think most people have no problem with point 1 or 2 to the extent that every rogue should have Improved Sneak Attack and therefore 21 base Dex. Problems arise with point 3 and especially with point 4: point 3 gives you a very tough time getting the best boss beaters, it's not clear point 4 gives you anything at all.

  15. #35
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    The perfect way to close out this thread would be for a Dev to read Kinerd's post then say that points 3 and 4 are already under consideration, and we will soon be seeing a number of new options for Dex based weapons

    Of course, then the Finesse feat would need some other boost...

  16. #36
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    I have to /sigh everytime the Dex vs Str Rog subjects comes up.

    /sigh



    What part of 90+ SA damage (more than that now actually).... killing everything do people not understand?

    The extra damage from Str is so small compared to the high damage from SAs that it barely makes a difference.

    Less difference when it's dead!

    Dead is dead.
    Doesn't matter if I did a few more points of damage to it... it still died just as fast.






    Now... SA immune mobs changes things.
    But the Str based Rogue sucks against them too! Just not as much.
    so don't try to pretend that your Str based Rogue is out there slaughtering SA immune mobs, cause it ain't true.


    so back we are again....

    Yes. Str does more damage.
    but most of the Rogue's damage comes from SAs.
    The most important thing for a Rogue is to hit and hit often.... and get SA damage when you hit.


    Dex Rogues are not gimp.

    Yes.... they technically do less DPS.
    But it hardly matters.

    They sorta have one less feat.... assuming you spend a feat on Wep Finesse.
    That actually matter more than the less damage they do IMO.

    But they gain in the Ref save department... which is very important for a Rogue IMO.


    Anyway. Both are fine.

    (and I really like my Drow Dex Assassin)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  17. #37
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasparion View Post
    The comprehension issue is yours. I said until you get those very few and very specific Dex based items you are gimping yourself and piking in groups.

    A first life Dex based Rogue is most likely not going to have those weapons, unless farmed on another toon. And you dont need to farm specific gear for a Str based Rogue to be adequate. Any gear-at-level which they can use is going to be far more effective on a Str based Rogue than a Dex based Rogue unless that gear is Str/Dex for +hit and +damage.

    You dont need to get defensive either. I wish Dex based Rogues were viable. I would play one. But outside of those specific weapons they simply arent. And this doesnt even get in to the question of DR breaking.
    Wow..... all these years... I've been getting high kill counts with a Dex based Rogue...from about lvl 5 on upward....... with no Dex damage weapons....

    and I've been piking!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  18. #38
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Btw.

    I'm an alt-a-holic. I've played every class.
    I've leveled up twelve characters to lvl 20. One twice.

    Maybe another ten to 14-19ish.

    and a whole bunch more in there somewhere.

    My Drow Dex based Rogue is the only one of my characters that has ever been consistant with the high kill counts.

    Even more so than my Wizard, Sorc, and Favored Soul. They probably do better against large groups, but when I look at the kills, they are not on top as often as my Rogue is.

    My Rogue has even outkilled casters in Let Sleeping Dust Lie. A caster friendly quest full of spiders that I cannot sneak by.... the same spiders that I refused to kill and everyone else padded their kill counts with.

    I killed only things that were not spiders..... the quest is full of spiders..... and I still pulled off a high kill count. With two arcanes to compete with!

    Gimped? Piking?
    I think not.

    The best DPS build out there?
    No... of course not.

    Plenty of builds do more DPS than mine.
    Mine is not even on my primary server... so I have less gear than I would like.

    I will be the first to admit that a Str based Rogue woud do more DPS than a Dex based one.

    Heck... mine isn't even max Dex!
    I think I started with 12 Str, 16 Dex, 12 Con, 16 Int, 8 Wis, 16 Cha.
    Nothing higher than a +6 stat item.
    No Dex damage wep. (actually I may have one now, but that is recent)

    But from lvl 5 on up I learned how to play this character so that I could get very consistant SA hits in.

    If you wait til a monster is actively attacking someone else, you can get about three sets of attacks in before it can switch agro to you. That is usually enough to kill anythng...or come so close that it dies quickly even when the SAs go away.

    For things that last longer I have Diplomacy and Bluff.
    With Bluff you can even Assassinate something that is agroed on you.

    DPS is not the only way to kill things.

    My Rogue is a killer.
    I may not do the best DPS out there, but I am very good at killing monsters on my Rogue.


    Just because a build does not do max DPS does not make it gimped..... or a piker.
    Last edited by Talon_Moonshadow; 12-11-2012 at 08:28 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  19. #39
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xaerr View Post
    no started the build, and kept it that way, con is a crutch.
    Haven't you heard? Everything is a crutch. The cool kids don't bother with gear at all - we just fight EE LoB stark naked.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    we just fight EE LoB stark naked.
    What gear do your toons wear?


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