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Thread: Pure Drow Rogue

  1. #1
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    Default Pure Drow Rogue

    I've been playing around as a drow rogue and im really enjoying it so far but since drow lack that extra feat that humans get I was wondering how I should go about building him.

    I did read up on the strength build and int builds out there but I decided to go with being a dex rogue. Now, my main question is how does a dex rogue get their damage if damage comes from strength?

    And when should I take precision? Any help would be great because Im in the dark here when it comes to building this guy including enchancements.

    Thanks!

    Yes, I have the 32 point build option but I dont know if that applies to drow.

  2. #2
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falvicar27 View Post
    Yes, I have the 32 point build option but I dont know if that applies to drow.
    Yeah, 32 point build option will not help you with Drow.

    As far as Dex vs. Str/Int based builds I couldn't tell you. I know Int based builds DPS is from Sneak Attack damage/assassinate. Str based is damage/sneak attack.

    Not really sure what Dex base will give you other than really good reflex saves with U15.

  3. #3
    Community Member Bumbaragum's Avatar
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    Hello,

    well... a nice 28 point build drow rogue would be

    STR 14 (3-5 level ups on str for a str build, rest on dex*)
    DEX 16 (all level ups on dex for a dex build)
    CON 14
    INT 16
    WIS 8
    CHA 10

    You will mainly be using rapiers and shortswords to go hand in hand with drow enhancements. Your damage will still come from strength, (till the enhancement pass when dex will be viable to damage somehow) so keep an eye for str/dex gear stats upgrade

    With this build the diference between str and dex users are +2-3 dmg on the main hand, half on the offhand and a feat cost(weapon finesse).

    *There's an epic feat called Improved Sneak Attack: 3d6 extra sneak dmg requirement is at least 12 rogue levels and dex 21. So 21 base dex is the new minimum requirement for rogues out there (unless you dont want the feat) and to adquire that on a str rogue build you will need at least a +3 dex tome (easy to adquire on epic levels or for some plat on the AH) and 2 points directed there, less if you can put your hands on +4 or +5 tomes (TR's and others similars players around. Nearly impossible for you on a first go before you have acess to the epic feat).

    Well I don't know when is best to get precision, but I would say around level 12-15 when mobs start having more fortification and your sneak attack damage is above average. You could pick Power Attack on level 3 or 6 and change it later for precision at later levels when you start doing raids.

    Feats: 7 Epic Feats: 2

    1. Toughness
    2. TWF
    3. ITWF
    4. GTWF
    5. Improved Critical piercing
    6. Weapon Finesse
    7. Precision
    (Str builds skill focus UMD or something else instead of Finesse)

    Epic:
    1. Improved Sneak Attack
    2. Whatever

    Feats are not in order of adquired

    Have fun

  4. #4
    Community Member Fluffysaurus's Avatar
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    I used to play a dex-based Rogue, albeit I played a little differently from you.

    Here's the link that I have my builds on. There's also a lot of discussion on dex-based v. str-based. Keep in mind that this build was intended for U14, so there may be some tinkering necessary.

    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=382770

  5. #5
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=391775 is my Dex Based Drow Rogue idea.

    The damage in dex build rogues comes from being restricted to the handful of weapons that do dex damage as well as dex attack.

    In fact, I'd recommend NOT getting weapon finesse, since outside of those weapons (that automatically effectively grant weapon finesse by using Dex as their attack MOD as well as using it for a Damage MOD) your damage will be terrible.

    I'll warn in advance that the thread contains the oddly aggressive "strength build or gimp" rogue forum trolls. In most cases they haven't actually read where the dps comes from (the above paragraph), so I would take their input with a large dose of salt if not disregard it entirely.
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  6. #6
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Drow and rogue, a not so bad combination for players IMO.

    There are several weapons in the game that use DEX rather than STR in the to-hit and to-damage calculations. The first of these is found in Three Barrel Cove and is known as the Tiefling Assassin's Blade. The most powerful comes from Sentinals of Stormreach and is known as Epic Midnight Greetings. There are others in between these.

    Because of these DEX based weapons it is possible to build a character that is primarily DEX and INT based. Drow give you the ability to start both of these stats at 18 while still retaining 8 build points. Because Drow get racial enhancements to DEX to go along with the rogue class enhancements, a good starting stat distribution for a DEX based Drow rogue is 8 STR 17 DEX 14 CON 18 INT 8 WIS 10 CHA.

    Now is when the hard decision is made. Do stat increases as you level go into DEX or into INT?

    IF you are willing to do the work to get assassination DCs into the mid 50's then you put the stat increases into INT. Otherwise you put them into DEX.

    Regardless, you go with the assassin PrE and capstone for the extra sneak attack damage.

    FWIW, if you are not going to go with INT on level ups and work towards the assassination DC then you probably should dump INT and DEX and instead go with a STR based character. IMO this looks more like 17 STR 15 DEX 14 CON 10 INT 8 WIS 10 CHA.

    The idea here is that you really do not need the INT assuming level appropriate gear -- even a 6 starting INT with the right gear will find and disable all but 2 or 3 traps in the entire game. You have to have at least 15 DEX at start so that a +2 tome at L7 lets you pick up the full TWF line. Drow and rogue enhancements (again) go into building DEX for reflex saves.

    Meanwhile you build STR as much as possible with all stat increases, gear, tomes, etc.

    The advantage of this approach is that you are not restricted in weapon choices. And, you STILL take the assassin PrE and capstone for the extra SA damage.

    Each is a legitimate approach. INT based takes more work but is giggles load of fun when you get it all together. DEX based is more highly survivable and easiest to do. STR based gives the widest variety of weapons to use and is midway between the other two in terms of the work needed to keep it properly geared.

  7. #7
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    A DEX drow rogue can certainly work, though recognize you're starting from behind. Mine works now (though technically I pushed INT with her) but way back a couple years ago when I was running the Vale there's no way should could solo things like RWTD.

    A couple of EMGs solves much of that problem.


    The crux is that, in the end, it's far easier to raise strength. Even if you've got DEX from your class and DEX from your raise in AP and a bonus of 2 to your DEX right out of the gate that is just about the same difference some EH Nether Grasps, a rage spell and a set of Madstones could basically make up the difference for STR. Bear that in mind as you build it, and recognize you're losing some points here and there.

    FWIW, my build points were very similar to what Therigar suggested. I think I was 18 each in DEX/INT, 12 in CON and 2 somewhere else. Might have actually been additional CON; if not was STR.

    Regardless you're still going to want STR items, etc. Ray of Enfeeblement, Wraiths and Symbol of Weakness are flipping everywhere, and if you're helpless or dead your DPS drops to zero.

    EDIT: Specific answers
    (1) Some weapons apply DEX to damage. If you can get them or the components to them on different accounts first, this helps. It may be better to swing one weapon instead of two until you get ITWF; you might consider the Staff of Nat Gann (Chronoscope) or the Brine Chieftan's Spear (3bc) as well. Note that some (like Treason) you can only get on the character who's going to use them - it's raid loot.
    (2) A decent feat order might be Toughness, Precision, TWF, ITWF, Improved Crit, GTWF, OPEN depending if you''re going to take Finesse or not. If you're taking Finesse, it'll move back everything based on when you take it.
    (3) Drow are 28 point builds with 2 points added in DEX, INT, CHA; they are not 32 point builds.
    Last edited by voodoogroves; 12-09-2012 at 10:57 AM.
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  8. #8
    Founder & Build Synthesis Battlehawke's Avatar
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    Default dex rogue

    There is nothing wrong with playing a Dex based Rogue. You have to be methodical and play with some strategy, however that is pretty much the case in most situations. Most of the damage from a Dex based Rogue comes from your sneak damage, and here lies your biggest problem. After landing a few "sneak hits" to are most likely going to draw some aggro, which in turn will cause you to lose sneak "hits". At that point you are back to Strength damage (or Dex with the right weapon) which is limited as a Rogue. Suddenly you go from hitting for a hundred + points of damage to around 10-20 and that sucks. Not to mention your BAB as a Rogue is fairly limited so you really have to Max Dex if you are planning on hitting anything. So, be careful not to spread your points out too thin. You need Con so you are not dieing all the time, Dex obviously if you are finesse, Str for damage when you have aggro and honestly Int for Assassinating in Epic Content (where the Current Rogue really can shine).

    Ultimately if you Solo a lot Str and Int are best. If you always run in groups then Con and a very maxxed Int are best. Whatever you do, don't gimp your HP.
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  9. #9
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    The bad news for DEX builds is there's only a few weapons which use DEX instead of STR for dmg; the good news is 3 of them are short swords which benefit from drow racial bonuses - the Tiefling Blade that Therigar mentioned (which is nice because it has the crit range of a keen rapier, even though it's a short sword), Treason, and Envenomed Blade. A pair of epic Envenomed Blades - or paired w/eMG - is a viable if less than ideal DPS combo. That said, I see DEX-based drow rogues as restricted to either flavor builds or F2Pers with modest resources.

    Anyway, I think the modern DEX-based Assassin should look something like this:
    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 20 True Neutral Drow Female
    (20 Rogue) 
    Hit Points: 242
    Spell Points: 0 
    BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
    Fortitude: 9
    Reflex: 21
    Will: 6
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             12                    14
    Dexterity            18                    28
    Constitution         14                    16
    Intelligence         14                    18
    Wisdom                8                    10
    Charisma             10                    12
    
    Tomes Used
    +2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
    
    Level 1 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 2 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 3 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    
    
    Level 4 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: DEX
    
    
    Level 5 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 6 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Precision
    Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
    Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
    Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
    Enhancement: Drow Weapon Damage I
    Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
    Enhancement: Improved Hide I
    Enhancement: Improved Hide II
    Enhancement: Improved Move Silently I
    Enhancement: Improved Move Silently II
    Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
    
    
    Level 7 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 8 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: DEX
    
    
    Level 9 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 10 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
    
    
    Level 11 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 12 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: DEX
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
    Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
    Enhancement: Drow Weapon Damage II
    Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
    Enhancement: Rogue Assassin II
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV
    
    
    Level 13 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Opportunist
    
    
    Level 14 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 15 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 16 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: DEX
    Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Crippling Strike
    
    
    Level 17 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 18 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
    
    
    Level 19 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Skill Mastery
    
    
    Level 20 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: DEX
    Enhancement: Rogue Extra Action Boost I
    Enhancement: Rogue Extra Action Boost II
    Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III
    Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost IV
    Enhancement: Rogue Deadly Shadow
    Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
    Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing III
    Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing IV
    Enhancement: Rogue Assassin III
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy IV
    Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
    Epic feats: Improved Sneak Atk and Imp Sunder
    Tomes: although I show it w/+2 Supreme, one of the nice things about this build is the only tome actually required is +1 STR for Power Atk.

    Assassin I isn't that great considering the AP cost, so you might want to level up with a different PrE - or none at all - then respec into Assassin II at lvl 12.

    Shameless self-plug: for truly gimpy flavor build territory, have a look at my Divine Swashbuckler.

  10. #10
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    i really recommend having weapon finesse. the weapons that give it to you for free are great and all, but there will probably be times where you want to use something else, like a greensteel weapon (radiance II is amazing for rogues) or alchemical or even just a lootgen epic short sword.

    with that said, the thing with dex-based rogues... is that just because you're dex-based, doesn't mean you completely ignore strength. you'll have lower strength, that doesn't mean you don't look for strength-boosting gear and such. from what we can tell, even with the enhancement pass you'll want strength, because the (limited, and not-necessarily-accurate) previews we've had show that you'll be limited to daggers if you want to use dex for damage... not exactly ideal.

    look for ways to get sneak attacks even when you have aggro. bluff/diplomacy (diplomacy only in groups), (improved) deception, and effects that blind your enemy (such as a radiance II greensteel weapon, rapiers are best for this) all provide good options, though radiance weapons won't work on raid bosses (but you should have a dedicated tank who's job it is to hold aggro). however, even with all that... invest in threat reduction.

    your damage will, most of the time, be slightly lower than an equivalent strength rogue. it will, however, still be quite high. so once you start fighting monsters that don't die in the first 3-4 hits, learn to attack something that another person has the aggro of... because it's a lot easier to never have aggro in the first place than it is to lose aggro once you have it.

  11. #11
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    with that said, the thing with dex-based rogues... is that just because you're dex-based, doesn't mean you completely ignore strength. you'll have lower strength, that doesn't mean you don't look for strength-boosting gear and such. from what we can tell, even with the enhancement pass you'll want strength, because the (limited, and not-necessarily-accurate) previews we've had show that you'll be limited to daggers if you want to use dex for damage... not exactly ideal.
    I did actually ask in one of those threads if we'd see that expanded for finesse-able racial weapons, specifically drow and short swords and got a dev response to the effect that "dagger only" was not the way it was going to end up, but they were still thinking on how to proceed (ie, would DEX to damage be part of assassin or racial, and if there would be one expanded or multiple sub-options to allow for that kind of build)
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    Thanks for all the info and suggestions.

    I think I will do a lesser TR which we get for free right (the first one)? I mean based on the info above and considering I don't really have a guild and I run mainly with pugs it would seem best that I go Str/Int then.

    The other option of dex/int looks great but if I want to solo I'd have to take my time in dungeons and make sure to max bluff. Correct?

    What I do know right now is that I don't do much for damage when I do have aggro but I do bluff often. And when I am in groups I make sure to go after the casters/archers which I drop rather quickly.

    Also, dex/int works can work but are there really that few DEX weapons in the game if i dont take weapon finesse?

  13. #13
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bumbaragum
    With this build the diference between str and dex users are +2-3 dmg on the main hand, half on the offhand and a feat cost(weapon finesse).
    This helps illustrate why Finesse is so, so bad. If you would gain 2 or 3 damage, it follows that getting Weapon Finesse gains 2 or 3 to-hit. Against a target with 70 AC, that to-hit is worth 2.5 / 140 = 1.8%. Because the formula rounds, this means that 36% of the time you will get +5% to hit and 74% of the time you will get +0% to hit even if you aren't at 95% to hit. You're spending a feat to give you literally nothing at least 74% of the time in this situation.

    Regarding Dex weapons, there are 0 Dex weapons that break significant DR with permanent augment slots, and there are a total of 2 onehanded Dex weapons that do so even with temporary augments: Midnight Greetings and Zephyr. Epic Zephyr is a joke. eMG is an outstanding trash weapon but has exactly 1 useful damage proc against bosses, and even though it's a very good proc it's still just 1. If you're okay with being inferior at boss DPS forever, restrict yourself to Dex based weapons.

    Drow is also a weaker choice, though not to the same degree. Consider that for the same 6 AP you could spend to get +2 damage, you could go human and get +20% to damage in boost form that you can couple with your Rogue Haste Boost, plus another feat, plus you'd have the same # of skill points per build point invested in Int.

    .

    You do need 21 base Dex to get Improved Sneak Attack, so get 21 base Dex by the time you take level 24. Just don't think "oh I put a level-up in Dex, time to take Finesse and grind out Treasons". You can and should still use real weapons, and you can and should take useful feats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    The bad news for DEX builds is there's only a few weapons which use DEX instead of STR for dmg; the good news is 3 of them are short swords which benefit from drow racial bonuses - the Tiefling Blade that Therigar mentioned (which is nice because it has the crit range of a keen rapier, even though it's a short sword), Treason, and Envenomed Blade. A pair of epic Envenomed Blades - or paired w/eMG - is a viable if less than ideal DPS combo. That said, I see DEX-based drow rogues as restricted to either flavor builds or F2Pers with modest resources.
    This is the problem. If there were enough Dex based weapons then the Dex Rogue would be awesome. But there simply isnt. And of the gear you mention above, you basically need to farm before you get them, meaning at each level on a 1st life you will be using Str based weapons until you probably out-level the Dex based gear you are after.

    Also, dont be afraid of starting with 12 Con, and going for 16 Str. The difference between 12 Con and 14 Con is minimal, and easily made up for if you look for the various False Life items, Con boosting items, Tomes, take Toughness (as Drow you should be going for Rapiers and Shortswords, not Khopesh, so you save yourself a feat there), Toughness Enhancements, etc.

    You are a Rogue, so sneak around, dont fight mobs 1-on-1 where possible, always fight from the back where possible, boost your Reflex save as much as possible, and laugh as the WF Barbarian with twice your HP dies before you. Then be sure to point out they just cost you an XP bonus

    If you go Rogue Mechanic then its even better. You are fighting mobs at range meaning in a group you will rarely have melee aggro. For your Repeaters, aim for Paralyzers, Con/Str drainers, Cursers, Insta-killers such as Banish/Disruption/etc., as well as pure DPS options.

    Just ensure your trapping gear is kept up to date so you dont fail on traps. Certainly for Normal and Hard at level this should never be a problem. Just decide whether you are ready for Elite, and dont be a piker (this is a general message to all 1st lifers who believe that they need Elite streak to get to 20 - while having toons which simply offer nothing to the group meaning they are essentially piking their way to 20).

  15. #15
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasparion View Post
    This is the problem. If there were enough Dex based weapons then the Dex Rogue would be awesome. But there simply isnt.
    I play a DEX and INT based human rogue. To suggest that he basically pikes every quest is an insult and demonstrates a serious lack of comprehension about a rogue's capabilities. To quibble over the need to farm gear is just wrong -- every character is going to farm gear. It really doesn't matter what gear it is that they are farming. Everyone is going to do it.

    The use of weapon finesse until a character has the DEX based gear is sound advice that is being given. It is a feat that can be exchanged using the free feat exchange from Lockania via the Hall of the Mark quest. But, what is most important is that at early levels there is hardly a need for this because the game is stacked in the player's favor.

    Many players will be able to make it to L4 without needing more than the starting STR, whether it is 6 or 8 or 10. So, even going purely DEX based from the start and ignoring weapon finesse is quite doable.

    The biggest problem is all the talk that runs in absolutes. There is nothing about DDO that is absolute. Players can design characters that run counter to just about every piece of advice they get -- from any source -- and still find ways to make the character a contributing and working member of any group.

    The damage difference between an 18 STR starting stat and an 8 starting stat is 5 points of damage per hit. When the total numbers are put together that is a pretty small part of the damage being done. So, it really is making too much of a fuss.

  16. #16
    The Hatchery DarkForte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    I play a DEX and INT based human rogue. To suggest that he basically pikes every quest is an insult and demonstrates a serious lack of comprehension about a rogue's capabilities. To quibble over the need to farm gear is just wrong -- every character is going to farm gear. It really doesn't matter what gear it is that they are farming. Everyone is going to do it.
    The difference is your rogue won't be doing relevant damage unless you farm one of those weapons. A THF barb without eSoS is still strong. A dex rogue without emgs/envenomeds isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    The damage difference between an 18 STR starting stat and an 8 starting stat is 5 points of damage per hit. When the total numbers are put together that is a pretty small part of the damage being done. So, it really is making too much of a fuss.
    Pretty much every TWF build takes power attack for +5 damage per hit. You're taking a feat to do 5 LESS damage per hit. Sounds awesome.
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  17. #17
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkForte View Post
    The difference is your rogue won't be doing relevant damage unless you farm one of those weapons. A THF barb without eSoS is still strong. A dex rogue without emgs/envenomeds isn't.
    About one of the worst responses to a post I've made in recent memory.

    A barbarian is almost certainly not doing as much damage as a rogue due to the huge amount of SA damage that the rogue gets. Until you get into epic levels and start getting the maximum benefit out of the epic destinies it isn't really even close. This is why all of the pre U-14 DPS discussion is dominated by rogues until you introduce epic weaponry into the equation.

    So, your assertion that I need to farm DEX weapons whereas a barbarian does not just isn't valid. Rogues get 1d6 sneak damage every odd level. That is 10d6 at L19. On top of that, the assassin PrE gives 3d6 and the capstone gives another 2d6. This gives a minimum of 15d6 -- roughly 53 points of damage. Add to that another 12 points of damage from sneak attack training and the rogue starts every attack with a base damage of 65 before weapon damage is even calculated.

    Now calculate your weapon procs, adjust for criticals, and so on. There is a reason why heroic level rogues still are the best DPS at those levels.

    So, are you telling me that it is too much effort to farm out a DEX weapon while running those heroic quests? Because I'll tell you that this is exactly what every player is doing on every character -- regardless of character class. Where does eSoS come from? The base weapon comes from a heroic quest.

    Of the four DEX weapons in the game the base weapons all come from heroic content. The first of them comes from a random encounter that can be quickly run, solo even.

    You are exaggerating the farming challenge entirely too much.

  18. #18
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkForte View Post
    Pretty much every TWF build takes power attack for +5 damage per hit. You're taking a feat to do 5 LESS damage per hit. Sounds awesome.
    Let's talk about that Power Attack for a moment. I've not examined it really closely. I only know what the wiki says about it. But, it is a straight up swap of 5 to hit for 5 damage. It has nothing to do with STR or DEX. So the Power Attack feat isn't even an issue.

    But, let's look at the 5 points of damage difference that I was talking about -- which had nothing to do with Power Attack.

    Rogues will start with an average of 65 damage per hit before anything else even gets calculated. I happen to have a Radiance II rapier. It is constructed to do 4d6 light and 2d6 holy damage. It has a base damage of 1.5[1d6] and a weapon plus of +5. Without any STR in the equation at all that is an additional 31 points of damage.

    And, as you noted, most characters will have Power Attack for another 5 points of damage. This means total damage from the weapon, without calculating criticals or including STR, is 101 points.

    Now, let's add in STR. At L20 I can count a +4 tome +6 item +1 exceptional, +2 insight, +4 rage plus double rage (Madstone), +2 ship buff, +2 Yugo potion, +2 DDO store potion and just for fun a +4 profane bonus. That is +27 to whatever STR a character has.

    A DEX character with 8 STR and no stat increases will be at 35 STR for +12 damage. A STR character with 18 STR and 5 stat increases at L20 will be at 50 STR for +20 damage.

    The DEX character's total damage on average and not including criticals is 113. The STR character's total damage is 121.

    113/121=.93 -- In other words, the loss of 8 points total damage is a power reduction of 7%.

    We can get more sophisticated, but even relying on weapon finesse the DEX rogue is going to be putting out more damage than virtually every other melee in a group.

    Doing the work to actually get a DEX weapon shifts the calculation dramatically. And, let's be honest, all DPS characters are going to be doing this.

    Part of the reason is that a lot of the STR in the calculation is not going to be realized by a number of players. The majority of people I know, for example, do not rely on Yugo potions or store potions to boost stats. Most don't have the profane bonus. Many do not have the insight or exceptional bonuses or +4 tomes.

    The vast majority of "Strength" characters are operating with a STR of 32-36. That is easily matched or surpassed by characters relying on DEX. Part of the reason is that rogues and the common rogue races all have DEX enhancements. A drow, elf or halfling rogue can have 20 DEX with 5 stat increases and 5 enhancements by L20. Add a +6 item, +2 tome and they are already at 36 DEX.

    BTW, if I made the comparison one between rogues and barbarians the barbarian slips 65 damage points just to start. This is the equivalent of 130 additional STR (65 more STR if we give the barbarian a two-handed weapon for double STR damage). Even accounting for differences in weapon base damage or giving the barbarian an extremely powerful weapon rather than the Radiance II, it is a lot of damage per hit that has to be made up.

    So, unless you want this to turn into a thread on why groups should only take rogues for DPS I wouldn't be pushing too hard on the rogue v barbarian theme. The only thing that has brought barbarians back into the DPS picture is the epic destinies.
    Last edited by Therigar; 12-10-2012 at 01:59 PM. Reason: fixed math and typing errors

  19. #19
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    The biggest problem is all the talk that runs in absolutes. There is nothing about DDO that is absolute. Players can design characters that run counter to just about every piece of advice they get -- from any source -- and still find ways to make the character a contributing and working member of any group.
    You could, but if you're spending resources on something that adds no utility to your character, you deserve to be made aware of that by the community.

    Please note! I didn't say "making a gimp character" or "basically piking". You are still free to infer these criticisms where they do not exist, but they are simply not there.

  20. #20
    The Hatchery DarkForte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    In other words, the loss of 8 points total damage is a power reduction of 7%.
    You made my point for me. I'm not going to check your numbers on this (better things to do honestly), but assuming you're right on spot, the conclusion is your dex-rogue is burning a feat on a feat-starved class to do 7% less dps when using the best TWF weapons in the game (namely celestia and alchemical khopeshes) and hence being forced into using a pair of niche weapons that have to rely on temporary augments to break DR and even then have mediocre critical profile and base damage, just to be somewhat competitive.

    What are you gaining over STR-rogue? A bunch of reflex save points when the str rogue is also getting no-fail? A bunch of marginal AC?

    After gearing up, your maximum str for a str-based character would be very close to the dex on a dex rogue if not higher due to effects you can get on STR, but not on dex: Rage, madstones, primal scream, abishai set, et al. Finesse was viable for undergeared players in u13 because an undergeared str rogue would have trouble hitting in epics, since the dex enhancing stuff is easier to get than the str enhancing gear. Now, however, str-based is a no-brainer.
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