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  1. #121
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by THOTHdha View Post

    This is not at all what happened in SWG. Your basic premise started off exactly correct. There were major min-max strategies that could be combined to make insane characters. That was nerfed, a few people grumbled, and things went on.

    When things started to fall apart was when Sony decided they would completely remove the XP system, the Skill Trees as you call it, and entire segments of the game. A large portion of their player base were 'social' players. Those who found fun in being the best 'architect' and home designer that they could be. People who would log into their 'dancer' or 'musician' character and spend the evening in a cantina socializing. And Sony decided 'We aren't the best combat game out there, we need to do better!' And so they cut out many of the social and crafting aspects of the game entirely. That was when, as you say, people 'walked out' on SWG. Not because of game balancing. Because the game was fundamentally altered to the point that it was no longer the same game.

    And the worst part was, the combat system was still not even good after so much had been cut away in order to focus on it!
    What I posted was exactly what happened in SWG. I was one of the people that did the research on what the customer base actually wanted. The highest percentage of folks wanted the old game back - the game they started playing previous to all the massive changes that happened.

    Most of the issues people complained about were game balancing. We'd see a whole new list of "(insert class here) needs to be nerfed" threads after each change to the game. First it was creature handlers, then it was combat medics, then it was pistoleers with full defense tree manipulation crossed with smuggler.

    The attempts to fix those issues simply resulted in a new "cant be killed" type of build, which would be the object of the PVPers moaning for the next few weeks. The only people not bawling about the flavor of the month were those who were playing the flavor of the month.

    As far as crafting - the highest percentage thing that made people mad on that issue was the fact that the company allowed one toon per account. If they spent points on crafting they would be weaker in combat. This caused alot of the powergamers to have 2 accounts, but the casual gamers who just wanted to craft had a hard time mining resources because they couldnt survive on the planets where the good resources were long enough to drop extractors or pick them up. Someone with a artisan - armorer - weaponsmith template being repeatedly killed by rancor and force witches on dantooine was commonplace due to no defense. If thats where the 900+ resource of the week was located, sucked to be them.

    As far as musicians and dancers? People would put on a macro based template, and go to bed - only to wake up halfway to completion of their template. They would then crank out another macro before they left for work and leave the game running. When they got home from work they could level to master in their new template they werent even in the room for when leveling in its entirety.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  2. #122
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunga View Post
    Where's your proof?
    Ive got 6 years of it right here on these forums, where people complain up a storm after each and every update, with the vast majority of it being completely ignored.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunga View Post
    Not a bad situation to analyze. Wouldn't you say that your cool story might also prove that when a company listens to a bunch of loud posters on a forum, they might impose nerfs that are extremely bad for the playing community just to oil a squeaky forum wheel or two?
    No - what the story proves is that its a terribad idea for a company to impose class based nerfs in a knee jerk fashion due to a few squeaky wheels. The games that do better on this issue are balanced on content, rather than class capability.
    Last edited by Chai; 12-10-2012 at 03:44 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  3. #123
    Community Member Eladiun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Ive got 6 years of it right here on these forums, where people complain up a storm after each and every update, with the vast majority of it being completely ignored.
    ...and this game is bleeding players.
    “If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do succeed.”

  4. #124
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post

    People didnt complain and then demonstrate they were addicated to the point where they would never leave. People complained, and when the company decided not to give them a game they wanted, the complaining customer base disappeared. There werent people who left the game and showed up to their forums for the next 6-12 months and continued to complain even though they stopped playing the game. They just moved on.
    All complaints and complainers are not equal though. There are plenty of forum posters who are addicted to posting stuff in these forums that haven't played the game for months. They've already stopped paying and/or playing and have moved on game-wise, they just can't stop complaining on the forums.

  5. #125
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    I teach this to my children, if you are not satisfied with your purchase exercise your right to request a reasonable restitution.

    If you buy a product and it doesn't work and is faulty -> Exchange or Refund

    If you pay for a service and it is not rendered at all -> Full Refund or if an agreement can be made for the service to be rendered and is still useful to you than that is an appropriate solution.

    If you pay for a service and get part of the service -> Full refund is not appropriate, unless only doing part of the service damages you as the purchaser (not perceived damage, but actually damage) than it should be pursued for repair. No service business should ever leave someone worse off than they found them.

    In the case of Software, which is a service, it is fair to say that you got some benefit from the expansion. Not everything that you felt you had paid for, but still a fair chunk of it. I agree some of the issues still pending since release of U14 should have been resolved by now. I personally was placated by the announcement that they were going to put more effort into bug fixes. We have seen several bugs get fixed, it is just unfortunate that there is still more to still "shake a stick at".

    However, coming here to garner support is the wrong approach. Those that favor your post and those that don't will not help you get the issue resolved. My suggestion is to pick up the phone and call the customer support line (after you formulate exactly what it is that you feel you paid for and are not getting, and what you feel would be a fair restitution). If you feel a full refund is in order, then except the fact that if given this full refund you will loose all of the benefits that came with the service. But you need to make that call as you are the one that feels you did not get what you paid for. Let others decide if they feel that way and each that does should make that call.

    Turbine would have to take notice if people decide to request a refund and are willing to give up an aspect of their service because it is not what they expected.

    Debating it here online will not get you the restitution you are after, pick up that phone and put an end to your dissatisfaction.

  6. #126
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladiun View Post
    ...and this game is bleeding players.
    And adding new ones daily. Just because a lot of the 'old guard' have decided to move on, doesn't mean the decline in DDO players is any worse than the industry overall.


    Just about every MMO out there more than a year old has seen a decrease in active accounts. Even new ones like SWTOR have had accounts decline this year. None of this spells doom for DDO or Turbine. In fact, Turbine has been lauded for the success of its hybridized model so I have no doubt I'll be reading plenty of 'this game is dying' threads for another couple of years.

  7. #127
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    However, coming here to garner support is the wrong approach. Those that favor your post and those that don't will not help you get the issue resolved. My suggestion is to pick up the phone and call the customer support line (after you formulate exactly what it is that you feel you paid for and are not getting, and what you feel would be a fair restitution). If you feel a full refund is in order, then except the fact that if given this full refund you will loose all of the benefits that came with the service. But you need to make that call as you are the one that feels you did not get what you paid for. Let others decide if they feel that way and each that does should make that call.

    Turbine would have to take notice if people decide to request a refund and are willing to give up an aspect of their service because it is not what they expected.

    Debating it here online will not get you the restitution you are after, pick up that phone and put an end to your dissatisfaction.

    Exactly. Anonymous internet threats to leave are pointless. Businesses care about real numbers. Numbers of accounts. Dollars spent per account. Etc.


    Continuing to pay for a VIP sub or purchase things in the store only prove Chai's observation of a 'pay 2 complain' player population to be correct. Complaints are cheap. Dollars matter. But at least venting forum rage is therapeutic... maybe.

  8. #128
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladiun View Post
    ...and this game is bleeding players.
    Its bleeding the old school players, and taking on newbies. Not a good idea I agree, but it is the reality of the situation.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  9. #129
    Community Member Gunga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Ive got 6 years of it right here on these forums, where people complain up a storm after each and every update, with the vast majority of it being completely ignored.
    Well, the six years have gone by but I'm not sure if your conclusions are accurate. You have certainly proven that you can have a different opinion from another person on this forum, but that's about it.

    Where is the secret inter-office email that you possess that implicates even one Turbine employee for ignoring a forum poster's request because they are an actively paying customer? Where is the result of your research that substantiates your argument that the best way for an active player to motivate a gaming company to reassess their update and modify it is to terminate their subscription or quit?


    Who are the people complaining with each release? Are they the same? Do they play? How much? Have they actually experienced the problems they're complaining about first hand?

    What are the vast majority of issues that are being ignored?

  10. #130
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    All complaints and complainers are not equal though. There are plenty of forum posters who are addicted to posting stuff in these forums that haven't played the game for months. They've already stopped paying and/or playing and have moved on game-wise, they just can't stop complaining on the forums.
    Yeah, I know. Out of the fad 5 who used to continually troll me on every single topic from years past, 2 of those people are gone and no longer post, one still plays and posts, and 2 dont play any longer but still find time in their day to point out how bad the expansion is - the expansion they never played once or even logged into after it was released. One of them is quite known for their car analogies you see. What they are doing is akin to driving a 2008 Jetta, then complaining that the 2012 models suck, even though they never drove or rode in one.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  11. #131
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunga View Post
    Well, the six years have gone by but I'm not sure if your conclusions are accurate. You have certainly proven that you can have a different opinion from another person on this forum, but that's about it.
    And youve proven you can quote me and ask for evidence hundreds of times, all the while never bringing any evidence to back up your claim that what Im saying isnt true. You should be asking for evidence from those that keep saying this game is bleeding players, because we have years of history of that same claim being made multiple times, yet here we are, years later, still debating the same point. The longer this continues, the worse that claim looks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunga View Post
    Where is the secret inter-office email that you possess that implicates even one Turbine employee for ignoring a forum poster's request because they are an actively paying customer? Where is the result of your research that substantiates your argument that the best way for an active player to motivate a gaming company to reassess their update and modify it is to terminate their subscription or quit? .
    Ive already answered that question a few times now one of which cited the examples where people actually kept their promise and left. Im sure we could rapidly dig up a decent amount of threats to leave on these forums, then dig up very close to the same amount of posts by the same people afterward, showing they didnt leave. Many of the ones who did "leave" as loudly as possible slithered back in quietly a short time later, only to start posting again in a few weeks hoping people would just forget their self contradicting tirade.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunga View Post
    Who are the people complaining with each release? Are they the same? Do they play? How much? Have they actually experienced the problems they're complaining about first hand?
    Not hard to figure out - they are here complaining after every update. Years of case history all for the viewing on these forums, and it even has a search prompt. Imagine that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunga View Post
    What are the vast majority of issues that are being ignored?
    Anything that doesnt involve microtransactions. Ignored is a pretty harsh word. Lets try "assigned a low priority'. The "stuck in the wall" bug isnt exactly a spring chicken, for instance.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  12. #132
    Community Member Gunga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    And youve proven you can quote me and ask for evidence hundreds of times, all the while never bringing any evidence to back up your claim that what Im saying isnt true. You should be asking for evidence from those that keep saying this game is bleeding players, because we have years of history of that same claim being made multiple times, yet here we are, years later, still debating the same point. The longer this continues, the worse that claim looks.
    No. I understand what facts are. I would not be able to prove that I can quote you and ask you for evidence a hundred times because I've actually asked you for proof less than 5 times ever.



    Ive already answered that question a few times now one of which cited the examples where people actually kept their promise and left. Im sure we could rapidly dig up a decent amount of threats to leave on these forums, then dig up very close to the same amount of posts by the same people afterward, showing they didnt leave. Many of the ones who did "leave" as loudly as possible slithered back in quietly a short time later, only to start posting again in a few weeks hoping people would just forget their self contradicting tirade.
    This is yet another example of you telling me that you've answered a question when you haven't come close to addressing it. Try to answer the questions, they are elementary school level:

    Where is the secret inter-office email that you possess that implicates even one Turbine employee for ignoring a forum poster's request because they are an actively paying customer? Where is the result of your research that substantiates your argument that the best way for an active player to motivate a gaming company to reassess their update and modify it is to terminate their subscription or quit?


    Not hard to figure out - they are here complaining after every update. Years of case history all for the viewing on these forums, and it even has a search prompt. Imagine that.
    It's extremely difficult to figure out, actually. You would have to remove from your testing pool:
    1. the complainers who just complain incessantly
    2. the outraged who are just outraged by any change and
    3. the clueless who are complaining about the theory but haven't experienced the change



    Then, you'd have to take the remaining group of players with their somewhat reliable information and take action based upon qualified conclusions. It's hardly a search, copy and paste. How do you determine who's who? You probably have to assemble your own QA group.

    Anything that doesnt involve microtransactions. Ignored is a pretty harsh word. Lets try "assigned a low priority'. The "stuck in the wall" bug isnt exactly a spring chicken, for instance.
    Backpedal on ignore, ok.

    One example, though? Really? Half-hearted at best. One example, which really just recently came up again and had been fixed for years, is hardly a vast list of issues. If you're going to make big claims, support them. I'm simply asking you to describe what you seem to think is so obvious.

  13. #133
    Community Member Eladiun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Its bleeding the old school players, and taking on newbies. Not a good idea I agree, but it is the reality of the situation.

    Agreed. (It's not even that old school a lot of people who started F2P are leaving.) The question remains to be answered if those new players will sub for 3-6 years and generate sustained revenue or if they are just killing time until the next big thing.
    “If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do succeed.”

  14. #134
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladiun View Post
    The question remains to be answered if those new players will sub for 3-6 years and generate sustained revenue or if they are just killing time until the next big thing.
    Not really. Turbine's hybridized model isn't dependent on long time subs, it's dependent on micro-transactions. It's actually more cost effective for Turbine to have a higher player churn as long as the new players keep dropping loads in the DDO store.


    The old MMO model is done. F2P and hybridized models (combination of f2p & subs) powered by microtransactions are where the industry is now.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Ive done my homework on this since MMOs began appearing in the industry, and this is not correct according to the way things work - we arent talking about my way, we are talking about reality. If peoples words complain loudly and often but peoples actions continue to support, then the message they sent is that they will tolerate the issues they complain about.
    So now you're also an MMO history scholar? As well as the grand arbitor of all that OK to complain about or not, and exactly how that complaining should be done. Cool.... I'm sure those are important fields to specialize in......



    ORLY? It took me 2 minutes to search up 4 threads where Im not in support of a specific decision the company made where you are in full support. Hilarious how easily these generalist statements can be defeated by objectively understanding someones full posting history, rather than subjectively quoting them and replying in opposition to them regardless of what their position is on a topic.
    Look, I don't have the will, the time, or the care to go and read 5,000 posts from some interNUT. I see something somebody says and reply, sometime I get it wrong.... Sometimes I don't.. Really I don't care...


    Odd that youre trying to slap this "company appologist" label on me yet again, because you see, there are issues where I do not support the companies decision, that you have supported them hand over fist on - like every single time another pay to win thread crops up youre all in-there-like-swimwear with mindless full support, and calling me a naysayer to boot. Every time I see this type of direct self contradiction I dont even need to respond to it other than point out the waffling and backpedaling that occurs when people use these sweeping generalist labels in their ad hominem based response to try to attack character, which is merely the knee jerk reaction to not having a logical answer for the point that was just made in the first place.
    Hey, I've backed Turbine, the DDo team, many individual Devs, and yes other posters on many subjects over he last 6 years. I'm also VERY hard on Turbine, and typically it's complete and total cluster-frick of upper management. But you on the other hand, while not always riding the DDO bus full of Medusas waing pom-poms, spend a great amount of time trying to enlighten just about anybody who choses to complain about DDo in anyway. If that's what you feel you need to do.. Cool... I hope it keeps you busy....

    The logical answer I have is that at times Turbine makes really really bad business decsions when it comes to running this game, many times they make the same exact mistake over and over. And that they've failed to make the biggest decision in my view that should be made and that involves a certain producer. But your load of doo-doo about how and when people should complain and whether it does any good is what I'm complaining about right now.... I don't waffle or backpeddle on anythign.. If I'm right, I'm right, If I'm wrong.. I'll freely admit it... Unlike yourself, who always seems to predict everything, and is ALWAYS right.... Untill you report a thread and it gets clsoed and deleted of course.

    Still waiting for any fraps you might have of you (solo) or with your friends of EE perma-death play. As you said "Been there done that".. So show us... I'd like to see, maybe you can teach me something.
    Last edited by smatt; 12-10-2012 at 06:15 PM.

  16. #136
    Community Member Gunga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smatt View Post
    Maybe you can teach me something.
    Impossible.

  17. #137
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smatt View Post
    Still waiting for any fraps you might have of you (solo) or with your friends of EE perma-death play. As you said "Been there done that".. So show us... I'd like to see, maybe you can teach me something.
    Still waiting for that quote of me specifically saying anything about soloing EE in PD. (4th time weve been over this in as many threads).

    What I did say was that I have epic gear I attained in the first incarnation of epics, when they were alot harder than they are now, in PD play. Ive challenged you to quote where I stated what you claim, and you still have yet to produce. This is the fourth time. The first two times were in the same thread where I made my statement, and you still came up empty handed. This was of course, when you were supporting Turbines P2W system hand over fist, after trying to convince everyone else that I am the Turbine appologist in the thread right before that. Turbine doesnt need to run this game on P2W money dude, they could keep the servers going by harnessing the breeze generated by all the forumite backpedaling.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  18. #138
    Community Member Gunga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Ive got 6 years of it right here on these forums, where people complain up a storm after each and every update, with the vast majority of it being completely ignored.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Ignored is a pretty harsh word.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Turbine doesnt need to run this game on P2W money dude, they could keep the servers going by harnessing the breeze generated by all the forumite backpedaling.
    You got that right.

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Turbine has been lauded for the success of its hybridized model
    That would be exciting news...if it was 2009. The world changes. Its always wise to try to keep current, at least within the same decade.

  20. #140
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunga View Post
    You got that right.
    If you quote the entire post, rather than selectively quote things out of context, you have no point whatsoever. What you really see when you read the ENTIRE POSTS you selectively quoted from is that bugs that have been in the game for longer than 18 months now arent fixed yet. I dont know what your definition of "completely ignored" is, but Im pretty sure the longer that wait is, the more convincing my point becomes.

    Im convinced that regardless of my stance on an issue, youll selectively quote my posts and try to disagree. Im also convinced that if my forum name wasnt next to the post, youd pass it right by without a second thought. You see, people dont push back this hard when someones wrong. They push back this hard when someones absolutely correct, and they cant stand it. The more you do this, the more you convince everyone else that what I am saying is true.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

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