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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zerkul View Post
    Rules and Eula are just useless justifications. I see ED system works good but some things are still broken: quality has not been the primary goal of Turbine (or Warner Bros) in the last updates.

    I mostly agree with OP.
    How are they useless justifications? They are there to educate you basically that whatever happens to the game, whatever state it's in while playing, Turbine is not at fault. Complaining, while within your rights, does NOTHING when you agreed to the Eula.

    Generally the only time a company fesses up to anything is when it's so broken that they have no choice. The expansion works, ddo still works. Well unless those stop working don't expect for feel entitled to anything, because you don't own it.


    Karnasis (Human Wizard, Pale Master, Level 27), Taldall (Half-Orc, Monk- Perpetually abandoned)

  2. #22
    The Hatchery Hutoth's Avatar
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    (Thanks GoRiNoSho for link)
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hambo View Post
    You need to sit down and really read the End User License Agreement (EULA), not just for DDO but for any software.
    Yes, a lot of us are well aware that the DDO EULA promises us essentially nothing in exchange for the money we spend on this game. That is not the way reputable software companies work. As a professional software developer who

    1) worked at one of the world's major computer companies for over a quarter of a century and
    2) now does business and technical consulting for a wide range of companies across the US

    I can attest that Turbine practices are substandard.

    Your attempt to absolve Turbine from responsibility in the face of a perfectly legitimate complaint is a pointless, but all too common, occurrence on these forums.

  4. #24
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnbeimnech View Post
    Take the number of vehicles in the field, "a," multiply it by the probable rate of failure, "b," then multiply the result by the average out-of-court settlement, "c." "a" times "b" times "c" equals "x." If "x" is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one. - Tyler Durden

    And that's kinda how it works in software, if they get it to a more or less working condition, they release it, then patch it later, and again and again and again. The really big patches are boxed and sold as the latest version.
    What is funny is I remember this (Well a variation). And because DDO will never directly lead to a death(that I can think of), and the possibility of successfully winning in civil/state court is 0.0000000000000001% (You have a better chance of winning the lottery) the only option you have is leaving the game

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by GermanicusMaximus View Post
    Yes, a lot of us are well aware that the DDO EULA promises us essentially nothing in exchange for the money we spend on this game. That is not the way reputable software companies work. As a professional software developer who

    1) worked at one of the world's major computer companies for over a quarter of a century and
    2) now does business and technical consulting for a wide range of companies across the US

    I can attest that Turbine practices are substandard.

    Your attempt to absolve Turbine from responsibility in the face of a perfectly legitimate complaint is a pointless, but all too common, occurrence on these forums.
    Absolve them of what? The OP said the game is broken, but how? He never states how's it's broken.

    Besides, why do we need to absolve them. They don't have the income or status to just drop any further updates to the game to fix bugs. Fixing bugs on a grand scale nets them less money than releasing new content. No income, no game. Now that being said going back to bug fixes in one update, new pack and content in the next might be the best approach, but nothing can say that for sure.
    Last edited by Kabaon; 12-08-2012 at 02:32 PM.


    Karnasis (Human Wizard, Pale Master, Level 27), Taldall (Half-Orc, Monk- Perpetually abandoned)

  6. #26
    Community Member LordRavnos's Avatar
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    The way I see it, since the majority of MMOs have you pay for the expansion, AND do not give free to play options( good ones anyway, level 20 limit when max level is 85 is not free to play if you ask me), its a moot point. Games either make you pay for expansions regardless, or the ENTIRE game is 100% free, expansions and all, and the cash shop is pure pay to win, example mounts, best weapons etc.

    Sure DDO has problems, but its still a good game, OP is still playing it, so deal with it. Its not exactly the Devs fault, its the higher ups who force them to put stuff out now, and then put out more stuff, skip the bugs because new content makes money, not bug fixes, fit those in when you are not busy making new content.

    For the record, I am a VIP and I paid for the expansion without a second thought, and I enjoy it. Do I want some fixes? Yes please, but it works and I can play and enjoy myself so its money well spent. Hell I even got the best expansion pack, with all the alts I have, the xp tomes, free xp pots, masks, pets, and free TP, etc etc, Turbine got ripped off by A LOT. For 80 bucks, I got almost 300 bucks worth of stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varis View Post
    Is that a trick question? A nuker should heighten, empower and maximise flushing the toilet
    Quote Originally Posted by fmalfeas View Post
    It will do damage like taking a point-blank meteor swarm in the crotch. You hear me people, stop encouraging Turbine to meteor swarm crotches!

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kabaon View Post
    Most are small things that you can ignore.
    Not really, no.
    If given the chance I'd like to see you do better.
    There's a name for the fallacy you're using there. I don't recall it, so I'll just nickname it BS.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by barecm View Post
    You know what, if Turbine had a clue, they would have recognized their poor rollout and tried to compensate. It costs them nothing to give all the folks who paid cash for the expanion an equal amount back as Turbine points. And to your point, as a real life PM on technical projects, if I were the PM on this, it would be a lot more on the customer satisfaction part. I am not saying to give back money because that is not what should or is going to happen, but certainly giving players something to offset the poor quality of the expansion would be smart.
    So, you say that Turbine should give players some free TP (which has a direct relation to real life money as you exchange one for the other) because it doesn't cost them anything? Those TP that they would give out are directly replacing the TP that people would purchase, thus directly costing Turbine money. Given that TP have a direct value with relation to real money, giving out either one would directly cost Turbine money, which would have the direct effect of reducing the quality of the game, as all of that lost money would have to come from somewhere.

    Ultimately, this is you saying that you are not satisfied with the quality of the product that you purchased, because it does not work 100% correctly. What it boils down to is that you have unrealistic expectations for this product given the staff and resources available to Turbine. You can tell Turbine that they aren't living up to their end of the bargain and they should refund this, that, and the other thing to players as much as you want, all it does is serve to show how unrealistic your expectations really are.

  9. #29
    Hero Gkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barecm View Post
    It is not ok to charge a premium for the expansion if things are not working 100%
    Then 99.9% of the paid software out there should have never been released using your completely silly standard. Seriously, what product have you ever seen released that didn't have a known issues list at release?

    I don't mind bugs when the content is free, but you decided to charge a premium for the expansion, now it is time to live up to your obligation to provide a working product for the money you charged and collected.
    Quote Originally Posted by barecm View Post
    Entitlement? As in I am entitled to the product functioning because I paid for it? Well then, yes. If you are talking about the more commonly used definition of entitlement, I do not think because I was born into a wealthly family (which I was not) that I am entitled to anything more than the average peson. I guess my standards for what I pay for are just higher than the rest who simply bend over and take it. Gamers just seem to accept things because they love the game. My belief is that I expect exactly what I paid for; a product that is fully functional. Is it ok for us to make partial payments? Nope. And yes, I love the game too. The difference is that I am not blinded by that.
    As I said, that's not what you paid for. In fact if you read the TOS and EULA you will know that you specifically agreed it would be buggy and non functional in some features and that was ok.

    Yes there are bugs that need to be addressed, but you need to get a grip, you are being over the top silly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zerkul View Post
    Rules and Eula are just useless justifications.
    No, the are the legal agreement you signed on to that says you acknowledge there will be bugs and game changes, and even at some times the game will be totally unplayable.

    One you are old enough to be signing contracts you will discover (prehaps the hard way in your case) that legal agreements matter quite a lot.
    Last edited by Gkar; 12-08-2012 at 03:36 PM.

  10. #30
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GermanicusMaximus;4801847[B
    ]Yes, a lot of us are well aware that the DDO EULA promises us essentially nothing in exchange for the money we spend on this game. That is not the way reputable software companies work. As a professional software developer who
    [/B]
    1) worked at one of the world's major computer companies for over a quarter of a century and
    2) now does business and technical consulting for a wide range of companies across the US

    I can attest that Turbine practices are substandard.

    Your attempt to absolve Turbine from responsibility in the face of a perfectly legitimate complaint is a pointless, but all too common, occurrence on these forums.
    Except for the fact that just about every piece of software has a EULA and does the same thing the EULA that we agree to does, protects the company.

    Can you please post a link to your companies EULA so we can see what a 'reputable' company does?

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  11. #31
    Community Member Artos_Fabril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Except for the fact that just about every piece of software has a EULA and does the same thing the EULA that we agree to does, protects the company.

    Can you please post a link to your companies EULA so we can see what a 'reputable' company does?
    I'm pretty sure he means that a "reputable" company delivers a quality product regardless of what the EULA says because they want repeat business, or because they also have a separate service contract that requires them to provide a minimum level of functionality (depending on the size and mission of the company).

  12. #32
    Community Member FengXian's Avatar
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    The amount of bugs this game has is at times unbearable. I agree justifying Turbine is wrong in this case. Content needs more testing before going live, at the very least.

    Turbine has the right to keep things crappy, there is a contract that allows them to.

    Customers should be smart enough to keep complaining about broken stuff in order to get it fixed. Turbine is just fine even w/o your help, and you won't get a cookie for it anyway
    Cannith - Juzam, Water Savant II Ranger 6 Monk 2 AA/ Orocarn, Stalwart Defender III Monk 2 / Taigongwanng, Sorc TRing - Guardiani di Eberron

  13. #33
    The Hatchery Aurora1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kabaon View Post
    Because not all products are to be judged with the same restrictions. You want to know why cars are meticulously crafted with very few "bugs" or defects. Because if they had lots of "bugs" peoples lives would be at risk. Hence the recall.

    Cell phones/operating systems/video games really don't have the same rating of importance when it comes to bugs. Cell phones MAYBE if it was an emergency, but because it cut calls. Big whoop. Sometimes phone calls aren't that important. Makes me glad I don't own one.

    There is a reason why patching exists, to resolve issues you don't have time to fix. When they will be fixed will be on how important those bugs are. If an ability doesn't work right in DDO, but something like falling damage happens at the same time, guess what. That ability gets the shaft over the more game breaking bug. It happens, move on.

    Well obviously your second point about restaurants would never happen, so that's a pointless example
    You kind of right but not quite.

    It's becasue people wouldn't accept that sort of flaw in a car, because as you say it could result in death.

    People keep buying windows when they ranted at the last version.

    People still pay Turbine when they release buggy content and don't fix it.

    And people still pay Vodaphone when anytime you want to make a call your out of signal.*

    We tolerate it because they were born in a different age and people now a days are completely apathetic and will just go with the flow rather then dig their heels in. It's what we have been conditioned to do for the last 20 years or so.

    * true story.

    A little while ago apple released an update for the iphone. I started to go through the process then, while reading the TOS I decided I did not want to install it. However, the only button at the end of the TOS was Accept.

    I couldn't go back, I couldn't decline. I called Apple to be told I had no choice but to accept the TOS or bin the phone, which was still on contract.

    That's modern day customer service for you.
    Last edited by Aurora1979; 12-08-2012 at 04:00 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by xanvar View Post
    I believe my left thumb is Gimp. I think I need to reroll.
    DDO Acronyms: http://ddowiki.com/page/Glossary
    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...78#post2326178

  14. #34
    The Hatchery vVvAiaynAvVv's Avatar
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    Bugs are gonna happen in MMO's.......caveat emptor....sorry.

    Scratt for president!!!!

  15. #35
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadereaper33 View Post
    So, you say that Turbine should give players some free TP (which has a direct relation to real life money as you exchange one for the other) because it doesn't cost them anything? Those TP that they would give out are directly replacing the TP that people would purchase, thus directly costing Turbine money. Given that TP have a direct value with relation to real money, giving out either one would directly cost Turbine money, which would have the direct effect of reducing the quality of the game, as all of that lost money would have to come from somewhere.

    Ultimately, this is you saying that you are not satisfied with the quality of the product that you purchased, because it does not work 100% correctly. What it boils down to is that you have unrealistic expectations for this product given the staff and resources available to Turbine. You can tell Turbine that they aren't living up to their end of the bargain and they should refund this, that, and the other thing to players as much as you want, all it does is serve to show how unrealistic your expectations really are.
    Theres two things that can be said here.

    1. There are classes that are taught about how to file an EFFECTIVE customer service complaint, part of which is listing what would make you happy as a customer.

    2. If you are on the receiving end, negotiations always start high. If you are on the paying end, negotiations start low. A company is usually willing to meet you half way, but they arent willing to give away the house. What they WILL do is assume youre going to ask for the house right off the bat.

    This all starts of course, with the first post I made, which is about BEING SPECIFIC when listing these immersion destroying bugs that are still there from the expansion launch. I do see alot of complaint threads on the forums about bugs this and bugs that. What I dont see is people getting SPECIFIC with what is ruining their play experience. In the world of CS, broad generalized complaints usually get ignored. Wont tell us what your issue is, we cant fix it.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  16. #36
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    As a consumer we do have the right to demand a refund when we feel we have not received the service or product that we have paid for.

    However, the burden of proof is on us as the consumer to prove that we did not get what we paid for.

    In software bugs happen, some not found until after a release (some known and accepted of course, this is true in ALL software development companies). QA departments, and good development standards help to minimize bugs.

    Now here is part of the problem with a game and especially an online game like MMORPGs, they are not a product they are a Service. If you actually read the TOS and EULAs you will actually notice that they elude to this point.

    Now mind you not all of the Services are working perfectly (aspects of the EDs are not working as intended etc.) but the service itself is still usable. Quests can be run, and completed. Gear can be equipped and used.

    I agree the number of bugs that are in DDO are a problem and any software company would rather have them fixed and pay less in customer support calls. I was encourage a while back when it was stated they planned to have patches regularly scheduled to resolve the bugs, but that didn't happen as I expected/hoped it would.

    Now I would like to point out that I'm relativity happy with the service they are providing. I've only had a few times where their service prevented me from using the game I subscribe too.

    Again if you feel that you are not getting what you paid for, my advice call Turbine customer service and request a refund, explain that you did not get what you feel you paid for and be ready to give up access to that area of the DDO service. As it is only fair that if they give you your money back for the expansion that you cease to access it for free.

  17. #37
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GermanicusMaximus View Post
    Yes, a lot of us are well aware that the DDO EULA promises us essentially nothing in exchange for the money we spend on this game. That is not the way reputable software companies work. As a professional software developer who

    1) worked at one of the world's major computer companies for over a quarter of a century and
    2) now does business and technical consulting for a wide range of companies across the US

    I can attest that Turbine practices are substandard.

    Your attempt to absolve Turbine from responsibility in the face of a perfectly legitimate complaint is a pointless, but all too common, occurrence on these forums.
    How many people were addicted to the software you developed like it was pixelated crack? I too work for a software company, and I can say that our users dont complain this much if and when they feel the way DDO players post that they feel about the product. They just start using the competitors applications. What we have here in this game is a bunch of people who have been complaining about bugs for years now after most updates, who are still here to complain about the next update. This does send a message, and that message is that while we can accuse them of being substandard all we want, we will still show up and continue paying/playing regularly. As far as influencing them to turn it around and make things right for the users, that kind of message doesnt get it done.

    The only thing that holds them responsible is the bottom line, and people round these parts will complain up a storm but at the end of the day not only still contribute to that bottom line, but support things that take focus off the game, which is why the cycle continues. Complaining up a storm in a pattern based fashion for long periods of time and still being here does absolve them from responsibility, as unfortunate at that may seem. So now the focus moves further and further away from the game people constantly complain about, and put more on convenience based microtransactions, which are widely supported by the same people. It will be far too late to turn it around when people finally realize they are kicking themselves on this topic.
    Last edited by Chai; 12-08-2012 at 04:44 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Since theres nothing specific in the OP, ima ask once, what specific things the OP is referring to. What thing(s) from the expansion are still not working that make the entire expansion not payable to play?
    I was going with the fact that the entire game is down. But if it's some nitpicky bug, I'm gonna side with Chai, you get what you pay for, and the game is less than $10 a month if done right. For me it's much less.

    Still, I'd like to know the specific as to what the OP is bothered by.

    Funny story, don't know how many of you noticed, but I stopped playing three weeks ago, to give myself a break. I decided to come back today.

    HAHAHA!

    Jokes on me, game's down!

    But anyway, I'll check in in another three weeks I guess

  19. #39
    Community Member LordRavnos's Avatar
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    Forgot to add before, I have yet to play a game where they released an expansion bug free. Hell, the MMO with the most people, WoW, for the FIRST YEAR, was a massive, major PoS. Chat not working left and right, loot bugs, random lost items, stuck loading, etc etc. And every expansion there was more bugs. Some of them took years to fix too, and that's one of the largest MMOs right there, with problems that made some of the DDO bugs look quaint. Nevermind some of the events that screwed people horribly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varis View Post
    Is that a trick question? A nuker should heighten, empower and maximise flushing the toilet
    Quote Originally Posted by fmalfeas View Post
    It will do damage like taking a point-blank meteor swarm in the crotch. You hear me people, stop encouraging Turbine to meteor swarm crotches!

  20. #40
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    lol awesome how in a thread where the fanbois come out in force to defend mother turbine, servers go out.

    Look, I don't care about free TPs or anything else Turbine decides to throw my way as a peace offering. All I want is for them to FIX THE DAMN BUGS! That's enough for me. Stop releasing broken, bugged up content and fix the major glaring issues confronting this game right now. You know what they are, look at the player's known issue list. (Don't make me compile my own, because I will! ) Then comb through that rat's nest of a code, find out what's wrong and fix it. Oh, and you might have to upgrade those VIC 20s a little, on top of it. That's it.

    As a disgruntled customer with an old-school sub, who sometimes buys point packs and pre ordered the x-pack, but is starting re-think those decisions lately and is thinking of canceling, that's all I want for my money's worth. I don't think that's asking too much.
    Last edited by Jorge_2070; 12-08-2012 at 05:36 PM.

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