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  1. #181
    Community Member Gunga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Repetition fallacy.

    I now have 3 concrete irrefutable examples which keep being glossed over in attempt to bury those examples in repetiton of the same thing. The bug is like a brick wall, and no matter how many repetitions stating otherwise that can be piled up, the issue still stands.
    Yes, you do repeat yourself quite often. Good for you for being self aware.


    You have 3 completely different, extremely refutable examples. That and a nickel and a 1000 posts...

  2. #182
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunga View Post
    Yes, you do repeat yourself quite often. Good for you for being self aware.


    You have 3 completely different, extremely refutable examples. That and a nickel and a 1000 posts...
    The old "I know you are but what am I" response? Hilarious.

    My examples are sound. If they werent youd actually refute them with factual information. SInce youre not armed with that, you attempt changing the premise thinking that pixels in a player avatar somehow interact with the collision environment differently than in a NPC avatar, which is incorrect. Its the same issue.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  3. #183
    Community Member Gunga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The old "I know you are but what am I" response? Hilarious.

    My examples are sound. Your attempt at changing the premise thinking that pixels in a player avatar somehow interact with the collision environment differently than in a NPC avatar, is incorrect. Its the same issue.
    You weren't just talking about yourself and how you repeat yourself? News to me. Make yourself clearer next time - I was just agreeing with you. You can say that air and water are the same 1000 times, but it doesn't make it so.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunga View Post
    I guess we should just agree to disagree because I'd hate to damage our friendship.
    Possibly the best one liner ever posted on these forums....

  5. #185
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunga View Post
    You weren't just talking about yourself and how you repeat yourself? News to me. Make yourself clearer next time - I was just agreeing with you. You can say that air and water are the same 1000 times, but it doesn't make it so.
    Kind of like repeating that the pixel collision in an NPC avatar isnt the same as pixel collision in a PC avatar.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  6. #186
    Community Member Gunga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Kind of like repeating that the pixel collision in an NPC avatar isnt the same as pixel collision in a PC avatar.
    In order to trouble shoot (and fix) a problem, you should have a basic understanding of the technology and maybe a touch of workflow experience. Diminishing every problem in a video game to "My pixels aren't doing the right stuff" is like saying that all problems with digitized video are the same. That is absurd, of course, which is why we take a good hard look at the details when trying to fix a specific problem and don't just zoom out to the most common denominator. I know that it fits your MO to say that all problems regarding walls are the same and the walls have been broken forever, but unfortunately, people who are especially sensitive to logistics and detail will have a hard time supporting your conclusions.

  7. #187
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Kind of like repeating that the pixel collision in an NPC avatar isnt the same as pixel collision in a PC avatar.
    Incorrect. In many ways.

  8. #188
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Kind of like repeating that the pixel collision in an NPC avatar isnt the same as pixel collision in a PC avatar.
    Considering...

    1. small box detection/interaction of PCs vs NPCs
    2. collision detection of PCs vs landscape joints.
    3. landscape detection of teleporting NPCs

    oh yes.. same thing.

  9. #189
    Community Member Eladiun's Avatar
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    My pixels could cut glass right now.
    “If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do succeed.”

  10. #190
    Community Member Gunga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladiun View Post
    My pixels could cut glass right now.
    Something's wrong with my pixels. They're all blue and fuzzy. I'm going to put in a ticket.

  11. #191
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunga View Post
    In order to trouble shoot (and fix) a problem, you should have a basic understanding of the technology and maybe a touch of workflow experience. Diminishing every problem in a video game to "My pixels aren't doing the right stuff" is like saying that all problems with digitized video are the same. That is absurd, of course, which is why we take a good hard look at the details when trying to fix a specific problem and don't just zoom out to the most common denominator. I know that it fits your MO to say that all problems regarding walls are the same and the walls have been broken forever, but unfortunately, people who are especially sensitive to logistics and detail will have a hard time supporting your conclusions.
    Been in engineering/technical support for 20+ years for high end video editing apps. Youre preaching to the choir.

    Ive been asking for specifics. Note that no one who joined your little crusade provided any. They just quote me and tell me Im wrong just like you did.

    Specifics please? How does it matter whether the avatar is PC controlled -vs- game controlled? In most games, it deosnt (and ive been on the inside of more than a few), but if youre going to tell me its different in DDO, I want a specific answer to that question. I dont believe its different in DDO. The graphics engine in this game is circa 2004 (when they programmed the game, not when it was released).
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  12. #192
    Community Member Gunga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Been in engineering/technical support for 20+ years for high end video editing apps. Youre preaching to the choir.

    Ive been asking for specifics. Note that no one who joined your little crusade provided any. They just quote me and tell me Im wrong just like you did.

    Specifics please? How does it matter whether the avatar is PC controlled -vs- game controlled? In most games, it deosnt (and ive been on the inside of more than a few), but if youre going to tell me its different in DDO, I want a specific answer to that question. I dont believe its different in DDO. The graphics engine in this game is circa 2004 (when they programmed the game, not when it was released).
    Cool. So, being in software, you should understand that the PROGRAMMING (not just pixels) has a lot to do with how objects interact and that any change to an associated part of a very complex program may effect another part in an unintended way. A program that is inadvertently telling an NPC avatar to ignore certain walls may not be written into the code that prohibits the PC controlled avatar from touching them.

    Similarly, a graphics program that designs certain walls may inadvertently be allowing some PCs to become stuck. Is it possible that only certain players have a potential for getting stuck over others? Could it be the interaction between local clients and the servers?

    I'm not a game programming expert but I was an engineer in my past life and work in analytics now. You will never be able to sell me the line that all pixel bugs are the same, regardless of programming, because they are all built with the same engine. Nope. I ain't buying it.

  13. #193
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    I think the funnest part of this back and forth is that unless we get a spokesperson from Development there is no way to confirm that the issue of 2010 has been magnified in 2012 or if it is a different issue which causes the similar "end result"

    I've seen many an appearance of it "Being the same Bug" when in fact each time it had a different cause, but the same or similar effect as an end result.

    So does it really matter? Nope not in the least, because WE are not the ones that need to fix it.

    What we can all agree is that we would like it fixed Soon (tm).

  14. #194
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunga View Post
    Cool. So, being in software, you should understand that the PROGRAMMING (not just pixels) has a lot to do with how objects interact and that any change to an associated part of a very complex program may effect another part in an unintended way. A program that is inadvertently telling an NPC avatar to ignore certain walls may not be written into the code that prohibits the PC controlled avatar from touching them.
    With regards to pixel collision the programming would not be different between a player controlled avatar and a computer controlled avatar, with regards to physics checks, unless we count the specific avatars that are designed that way on purpose (which we dont see this issue on). An example in this game is when a mob turns into a yellow named periodically during an encounter and no longer collides with any avatars in order to be able to role play their plot to full before being killed. Neihoden, the boss in Fear Factory is an example of this. Most other mobs, the ones that DO get stuck in walls, arent designed this way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunga View Post
    Similarly, a graphics program that designs certain walls may inadvertently be allowing some PCs to become stuck. Is it possible that only certain players have a potential for getting stuck over others? Could it be the interaction between local clients and the servers?
    We are talking about pixel collision. What other specific variables would allow *some* players to get stuck and not others. The programming on the avatars is the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunga View Post
    I'm not a game programming expert but I was an engineer in my past life and work in analytics now. You will never be able to sell me the line that all pixel bugs are the same, regardless of programming, because they are all built with the same engine. Nope. I ain't buying it.
    I never stated all pixel bugs are the same. I stated that the specific walking through walls issue is the same, in this specific game. The current reports of this are not the first time this issue appeared. This has been going on long enough where experienced vets keep a mental list of stuff that works to kill those mobs in the wall so they can get on with completing their quest. How many other times has Turbine released an update where old bugs began to be reported again?
    Last edited by Chai; 12-11-2012 at 05:30 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The physics problems have been around for years. It has recently deteriorated into something that gets reported far more often. Ive given several examples that people have no refutation for, which have occurred years before the most recent events. Instead of actually answering those, people quote me and make off the cuff personal remarks which are irrelevant to the actual discussion.

    Hint.... Physics engine was changed at the begging of the year... Another hint.... You should stop pretending to have a clue about what you're talking about and frap us some of your claimed awesome....

    Many different bugs CAN show them selves in the same way. The current problems have nothing to do with the OLD physics engine... I wonder if you fell down and hit your head or you need to...
    Last edited by smatt; 12-11-2012 at 05:36 PM.

  16. #196
    Community Member Gunga's Avatar
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    You're right. All pixel bugs are the same.
    Last edited by Gunga; 12-11-2012 at 05:36 PM. Reason: Slamming head in door.

  17. #197
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    I have a headache, and a fever. That's only ever caused by one thing right?
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  18. #198
    Community Member Gunga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    I have a headache, and a fever. That's only ever caused by one thing right?
    Yes. That one thing can make you go blind, too.

  19. #199
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Been in engineering/technical support for 20+ years for high end video editing apps. Youre preaching to the choir.

    Ive been asking for specifics. Note that no one who joined your little crusade provided any. They just quote me and tell me Im wrong just like you did.

    Specifics please? How does it matter whether the avatar is PC controlled -vs- game controlled? In most games, it deosnt (and ive been on the inside of more than a few), but if youre going to tell me its different in DDO, I want a specific answer to that question. I dont believe its different in DDO. The graphics engine in this game is circa 2004 (when they programmed the game, not when it was released).
    If I were to elaborate, having actually worked with several physics engines on actual 3D real-time networking games, would you listen? Prior experience would suggest I'd be wasting my breath, but if you're genuine about wanting to assist in digging out the subtle differences for better identification of issues, I may try and make time.

    Or you could keep up the attitude, and I'll just keep laughing. Your call.

  20. #200
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smatt View Post
    Hint.... Physics engine was changed at the begging of the year... Another hint.... You should stop pretending to have a clue about what you're talking about and frap us some of your claimed awesome....

    Many different bugs CAN show them selves in the same way. The current problems have nothing to do with the OLD physics engine... I wonder if you fell down and hit your head or you need to...
    So now its 11 months. Before it was 3. Which is it?

    BTW, the physics engine was changed more than once - and one of the major changes was when we went through the U5 combat nerfdate (~may 13, 2010) where they completely ganked EQs doublestrike and offhand proc mechanic and schlepped it into this game. Thats when the collision physics began to fail. Update 6 was red fens, and we were already able to walk through walls to get to the red fens slayer area before U6 went live (~aug 17, 2010).
    Last edited by Chai; 12-11-2012 at 06:48 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

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