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  1. #1
    Community Member beilschmidt's Avatar
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    Default Kicking someone out of party because of HP

    Hi folks,
    I want to discuss something that sometimes happens in the game. Kicking a member out of party because of "low" HP. I've witnessed it many times, and now it's just happened to me in Thelanis. The problem is that I couldn't even find a chance to tell the leader that I didn't realise I wasn't wearing my CON item at that moment (I was in underwater for a quest, so I was wearing my Underwater item instead of con item for a short time). I sent the party leader a tell, he didn't bother replying back to me.

    It was Chronoscope EH and hell, with con+hp items I can keep myself alive very easily because guess what, it was my cleric (also guess what, they can use shields and heavy armour that increases AC a lot). I've played eChrono many times even with my bard, and they usually have less HP/AC. I... never died? (bards can use cure spells) I hesitate joining high-level quest parties when I don't know the quest well, so I play them with my guildies or friends until I learn them well, so doesn't it show that I have a confidence that I'm gonna be an effective party member?

    Mısjudgment is unfair. Have you ever kicked someone out of party immediately because of HP? Or something else, without giving him a chance?
    Sure you want your party to be almost perfect, you want successful runs, but I've seen monks or rogues that have lower HP than me and have great ability to damage, to take attacks and defend theirselves. More examples can be given.
    English is not my native language, so please excuse my mistakes.
    Thelanis: Fossette (Your DC'ing raid cleric), Ampora (party's gimp CC bard), Eridana (worst Paladin tank in your party), Laeressa ("kill before you get killed" Barbarian), Dualscar (uncharismatic WF sorcerer)

  2. #2
    Community Member mobrien316's Avatar
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    I have never booted anyone from a party for having low HP. I doubt I ever will.


    I strongly believe you cannot judge a player until you run at least one quest with them. Their build doesn't tell you anything, their HP doesn't tell you anything, and their SP doesn't tell you anything. You can ask them to link their gear, but linking an appropriate DR-breaker doesn't mean they are a good player any more than not linking a DR-breaker means they are a bad player.

    It always irritates me when the group leader would rather screen and screen and screen, and keep booting people who join with "low" hit points, rather than just play.

    I have seen plenty of characters with what seemed like low HP do just great, because the player was a good player. I have also seen characters with lots of hit points who were terrible because the player was a terrible player.

    If you got booted from a group, consider yourself lucky. In my experience, I have NEVER been impressed by a leader's performance in a quest or raid after they made a big deal of screening out the "losers" with low HP or an odd build. The manic screeners always seem to also be whiners who simply can't play and complain about what everyone else does.
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  3. #3
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    I have always been a firm believer that if given the gimpiest build in the world, an awesome player could do 10x what the worst player could do given the best build with the best gear. People like this who "boot" players for "low hp" are, in my opinion:

    A. Making new players dislike the community (and by extension the game), due to them not having perfect gear and therefore being kicked. A GFL item is more hp then +2 con.

    and

    B. Insecure little brats who just want someone there to cover up for the fact that they are actually bad players.


    HP should not be the look at for how good a player is. Player history should.

  4. #4
    Community Member beilschmidt's Avatar
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    Exactly. I've just learnt from a friend that "that guy" never accepts people lower than 500 HP on level 20, and lower than 200 on level 10.

    Elitists.

    At least they could've put a warning or something else for LFM. Like Ive said, I hesitate to join high level parties a lot.
    (and more, many people don't know the cleric spell Death Pact, that allows you to revive yourself immediately per rest, in case you die )

    Quote Originally Posted by the613 View Post
    B. Insecure little brats who just want someone there to cover up for the fact that they are actually bad players.
    I don't judge people by their age on this game because I'm a young player, but the funny (piteous?) part that I heard the leader's voice for a second and he was clearly an adult.
    Last edited by beilschmidt; 12-07-2012 at 09:38 PM.
    English is not my native language, so please excuse my mistakes.
    Thelanis: Fossette (Your DC'ing raid cleric), Ampora (party's gimp CC bard), Eridana (worst Paladin tank in your party), Laeressa ("kill before you get killed" Barbarian), Dualscar (uncharismatic WF sorcerer)

  5. #5
    Community Member wildbynature's Avatar
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    Just out of curiosity, what was your hp? I mean it was only epic hard, right??? My boyfriend used to occasionally do this to people with painfully low hp if he thought we were running a particularly difficult quest, but I broke him of it pretty quickly. Booting someone for that really isn't helping anyone, and it just makes the party leader look like a troll.

    I can see your frustration with the guy who did that. Sadly, it used to be a lot more common on my server then it is now. I'd really hate to see that practice some back, but unfortunately all I can tell you is that it's his party and he does have that power. And join the club, ya know? I've been kicked out of groups for ridiculous reasons (I'm female and talk over voice, I haven't memorized the way to hound of xoriat, someone didn't like my guild, etc. Dont let it get to you, and try not to feed the trolls. It's like giving a mouse a cookie but waaayyy less cute ;-)
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  6. #6
    Community Member SemiraLynn's Avatar
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    If someone booted you out of a party because you didn't meet some arbitrary HP value then they have every right to do that. Furthermore, those kind of party leaders generally are not fun to party with. He did you a favor. There are plenty of players that'll take anyone and go and have a fun raid. Don't hesitate to join groups. If you get the boot, then good, they were a bad party for you.

    And with the way Epic Destinies grossly inflate a character's power, if a quest/raid isn't being done on Epic Elite, there's no need to be overly picky.
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  7. #7
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    This is an old tale with a zillion threads. Get your weight up and stop blaming everyone else. It's not easy and it takes time. Eventually you know where your HP should be to survive at a particular level. And although I have never personally booted someone for HP I don't begrudge someone else doing so.
    If your HP is so low that taking off you con item turns you into a 98lb weakling who gets booted at a glance, odds are you need more con. toughness. greater/superior false life item.
    How much HP is enough?
    Can you stand among the horde of archers, devils, armorers and mages in EH Chrono without any CC and heal a party without dying the first time a heal isn't centered on yourself? Yes? Then you have enough. No? rethink your setup.
    And any non tank level AC is a waste. Don't count on that protecting you. Ehard mobs have like a +70 to hit. (guessing)
    Was the leader rude for booting you so quickly? Maybe. Don't take it personal.
    Forget the incident, remember the lesson, learn from it and get your weight up.
    Do some push-ups and drink broccoli shakes or sumpin.
    Oh. And find another water breathing item that doesn't cost half your HP to wear.
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  8. #8
    Community Member darthhento's Avatar
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    If he booted you from eH Chrono because of low HP he's doing it wrong. You're better off not being in that party. At that difficulty it can be easily shortmanned or have 6 gimp deadweights in it without affecting anything.

    On the other hand:
    When you join an elite quest you are expected to not get one-shotted.

    On heroic quests I will instantly boot a player that has half my HP at level. No questions asked. Reason being no matter how good you are you will die with those hit points. A lot. And I don't want to listen to you whine or carry you trough the quest. There's heroic casual, normal and hard difficulties for that.

    At epic hard I will expect you to have at least 500 HP as a melee, 400 as an arcane at lvl 25.

    EE is another story though.
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  9. #9
    Community Member Jay203's Avatar
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    a party that boots you for having not met a "requirement" is not a party you'd want to be in anyway
    PS: Greensteel RUINED the game! and you all know it!
    less buffing, more nerfing!!!
    to make it easier for those of you that wants to avoid me in game, all my characters are in "Bladesworn Mercenaries"

  10. #10
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    word of advice, avoid that party leader and any others like that.

    peoples expectations of how other players builds are supposed to be indicates elitest or noob, in my book. a players hp gives no indication of how good or bad he/she is or if their build is good or bad. you have to actually run with them to be able to determine what you feel is a good indication of a players build and skill. of course, expectations could still be high even after running with them, but at least you gave it your best and you wont have to worry about grouping with them again if you avoid them.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by beilschmidt View Post
    I don't judge people by their age on this game because I'm a young player, but the funny (piteous?) part that I heard the leader's voice for a second and he was clearly an adult.
    I wasn't talking about his physical age there, and it was more me letting my emotions on this subject out. I get very upset when people try to dictate how another player's build should be, or how they should be playing their build. Each person is different, has a different playstyle, and I hate that in a game with such diverse combinations, if your build is in the "standard build index", then you're "gimped", or "suck", etc. Certain players may be able to play with only 200-300 hp on Epic levels, why should they boost their hp instead of their other capabilities just because some other player can't?

  12. #12
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darthhento View Post
    If he booted you from eH Chrono because of low HP he's doing it wrong. You're better off not being in that party. At that difficulty it can be easily shortmanned or have 6 gimp deadweights in it without affecting anything.

    On the other hand:
    When you join an elite quest you are expected to not get one-shotted.

    On heroic quests I will instantly boot a player that has half my HP at level. No questions asked. Reason being no matter how good you are you will die with those hit points. A lot. And I don't want to listen to you whine or carry you trough the quest. There's heroic casual, normal and hard difficulties for that.

    At epic hard I will expect you to have at least 500 HP as a melee, 400 as an arcane at lvl 25.

    EE is another story though.
    i beg to differ. normally i take toughness late when i level a toon and toughness enhancements when i have spare AP after i take my prerequisites and other useful enhancements. i like all my prerequisites for prestiges and dps feats first. i do wear the best con item i can at minimum level, but false life is only if i have room. i do die sometimes, but i normally have the highest or second highest hp in the group.

    if you are at all skilled, you can avoid a lot of damage. mistakes happen anywhere, even on high hp characters. some high hp players assume their inflated hp is a sponge, when really its not. at level, if you get 1 shotted (disintegrate), theres a chance that a high hp character may have a few hp left, but normally i see this isnt the case. its more about knowing the strengths and weaknesses of your character and playing accordingly.

  13. #13
    Community Member Dolphious's Avatar
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    I actually think people have gotten a lot more reasonable about this.

    Right after HP became visible to the party there was all kinds of bellyaching about HP, some reasonable, most not. But that seems to have cooled WAY down. The only time I've seen someone be booted for low HP in the past few months was one of the few situations where I think it's reasonable: A melee in an elite shroud. ANd that was only after the leader asked about this exact issue (whether he had on all his HP gear). The guy had under 300 HP, that's just not reasonable for that quest at that difficulty. '

    I still probably wouldn't have done it, the group was solid and we probably would have been fine if half of it DCed in pt1, but I get the principle of everyone needing to contribute.


    There are situations where your HP is simply to low for your role in the particular quest/raid, but those thresholds are really way below what is easy to get. Most people seem to be reasonable about it. For example my barcher as about 550 HP, that's a borderline liability for a melee in EE, but I've never gotten any grief about it. Ppl realize it's a ranged toon that will have displacement going and can self heal and move while DPSing.
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  14. #14
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    could of been something about 220 hp at 20.

    I think it;s actually harder to get a sucky hp score at 20 then it is to even go for the golden numbers. Even with a sad base of 12. I mean it's really easy. A gs, a +6 item, the toughness feat and the toughness enhancements. Maybe even go for a lil bit more with toughness on a gear peice. In fact toughness is almost standard on the give away loot now. maybe another 10 from draconic vitality.

    And that's the basics if you don't have the underdark expansion. Once you have that easy as pie to get gear your stacking +7's +2's, slotting a +1 in any colorless slot if it isn't on a tod ring if you were lucky.

    In fact..why just today I saw this lil lv 20 booted for having extremely sad hp. We're talking lolths breasts would of ko'd er just from a nose bleed. That's how pathetically sad of a 1 hit kill this rogue was. In fact even if I could have somehow given this rogue 150 hp, the score would have still of been sad. If anything it was a mercy booting. A mercy boot before those hez's and cats got a hold of her and had their way with her again and again, ding after ding.

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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    I strongly believe you cannot judge a player until you run at least one quest with them. Their build doesn't tell you anything, their HP doesn't tell you anything, and their SP doesn't tell you anything. You can ask them to link their gear, but linking an appropriate DR-breaker doesn't mean they are a good player any more than not linking a DR-breaker means they are a bad player. ... The manic screeners always seem to also be whiners who simply can't play and complain about what everyone else does.
    Quote Originally Posted by the613 View Post
    I have always been a firm believer that if given the gimpiest build in the world, an awesome player could do 10x what the worst player could do given the best build with the best gear. ... HP should not be the look at for how good a player is. Player history should.
    Hear, hear.

    I've been in very few party wipes that were solely/mostly the fault of one person. I have NEVER been in a party wipe that was because someone's build or gear wasn't up to snuff, but several that have been a direct result of someone who thought that, because they had quadruple-digit HP and a +10 Epicly Epic Greatsword of Awesomeness +99, they were indestructible.

    Game smarts > builds/gear, always.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by darthhento View Post
    On heroic quests I will instantly boot a player that has half my HP at level. No questions asked. Reason being no matter how good you are you will die with those hit points. A lot. And I don't want to listen to you whine or carry you trough the quest. There's heroic casual, normal and hard difficulties for that. At epic hard I will expect you to have at least 500 HP as a melee, 400 as an arcane at lvl 25.
    ROFL. You want people to help you through the quest? So you're gimpy? Good players who throw up LFMs don't need folks to help them through Heroic Elite quests. And they ALWAYS carry folks through such quests when they post LFMs. You're looking for help, and you're trying to pretend to be Elite. And you have expectations in Epic Hard? What do you need? Your hand to be held? Epic Hard is a joke. Sorry. I have you pegged as a wannabe elitist who thinks that kicking people somehow makes you special.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by the613 View Post
    I have always been a firm believer that if given the gimpiest build in the world, an awesome player could do 10x what the worst player could do given the best build with the best gear. People like this who "boot" players for "low hp" are, in my opinion:
    Someone with a gimpy build isn't an awesome player. People boot for low HP because it shows the person makes bad decisions. It's like tatooing your face and putting spikes and **** through your nose/ears/lip/tongue/whatever, it's a visible sign of poor decision making ability.

  18. #18
    Community Member beilschmidt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximusParthas View Post
    This is an old tale with a zillion threads. Get your weight up and stop blaming everyone else. It's not easy and it takes time. Eventually you know where your HP should be to survive at a particular level. And although I have never personally booted someone for HP I don't begrudge someone else doing so.
    If your HP is so low that taking off you con item turns you into a 98lb weakling who gets booted at a glance, odds are you need more con. toughness. greater/superior false life item.
    How much HP is enough?
    Can you stand among the horde of archers, devils, armorers and mages in EH Chrono without any CC and heal a party without dying the first time a heal isn't centered on yourself? Yes? Then you have enough. No? rethink your setup.
    And any non tank level AC is a waste. Don't count on that protecting you. Ehard mobs have like a +70 to hit. (guessing)
    Was the leader rude for booting you so quickly? Maybe. Don't take it personal.
    Forget the incident, remember the lesson, learn from it and get your weight up.
    Do some push-ups and drink broccoli shakes or sumpin.
    Oh. And find another water breathing item that doesn't cost half your HP to wear.
    First of all, thanks for advice.
    I already have False life items, +15 HP greensteel, Con tomes, Toughness feat and enhancements (all my toons have those).
    Yeah I shouldn't take it personal, I might seem like I do but it means that that kind of players behave to lots of players, not me. Maybe I deserved this, but others? No.
    It's kinda "judging a book by its cover".
    Does he know increased fortification? Maybe. Epic mobs hit really high even without non-crit though. Displacement clickie? Devils usually have true seeing. But still.
    I know what I can do. I'm not confident at most of quests and I'm always trying to improve myself because I've not been playing this game for years. I'm open to advice anytime. I even blame myself a lot, I don't blame anyone particularly if the party fails (because we enter quests as "party" so it's our failure). Yet this is nothing but making new players (or even old ones) feel demoralised.

    There have been a lot of threads about LFMs. Like, "if there is a BYOH on my LFM and one person doesn't carry poison/disease/curse pots, I get angry" or "I wanted a healer for party but the cleric that joined never healed the party at boss fight!". Yes if you are the leader you can do whatever you want in the party, but really? Like I've said I wouldn't have joined if there was a warning on that LFM. Even though I know the quest well.

    My only problem here was kicking someone out in a second. Second. Look at the HP regardless of class. Again like I've said you have many ways to keep yourself alive AND the party when you're cleric. Quickened Bursts are my priority when I need to heal myself.
    (I had to bold/underline that because some people seemed to misunderstand me.)

    On the other hand, most of Epic Hard quests are equivalent to Heroic Hard at level. There are many heroic hard quests that difficult as ehChrono's difficulty at level.
    Last edited by beilschmidt; 12-07-2012 at 10:51 PM.
    English is not my native language, so please excuse my mistakes.
    Thelanis: Fossette (Your DC'ing raid cleric), Ampora (party's gimp CC bard), Eridana (worst Paladin tank in your party), Laeressa ("kill before you get killed" Barbarian), Dualscar (uncharismatic WF sorcerer)

  19. #19
    Community Member Dysmetria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beilschmidt View Post
    Hi folks,
    I want to discuss something that sometimes happens in the game. Kicking a member out of party because of "low" HP. I've witnessed it many times, and now it's just happened to me in Thelanis. The problem is that I couldn't even find a chance to tell the leader that I didn't realise I wasn't wearing my CON item at that moment (I was in underwater for a quest, so I was wearing my Underwater item instead of con item for a short time). I sent the party leader a tell, he didn't bother replying back to me.
    How did he kick you out of the party while you were in a quest? I thought that wasn't possible.

  20. #20
    The Hatchery Rawrargh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oweieie View Post
    Someone with a gimpy build isn't an awesome player. People boot for low HP because it shows the person makes bad decisions. It's like tatooing your face and putting spikes and **** through your nose/ears/lip/tongue/whatever, it's a visible sign of poor decision making ability.
    That seems like a quite reasonable desicion for someone working at say... A tatoo shop?

    Anyways back on top...

    I'd say it's quite reasonable to expect a certain amount of HP/SP from players especially since DDO has been given a pretty good gear progression for epic levels, with the whole commendation turn-ins.

    It allows a first time player who just hit 20 to start working on some halfway decent gear. The PDK set is pretty awesome for pretty much any class with it's +9 con and +9 str, add some of the set items from clerics/villagers/wizards and it'd be hard to have under the "bare-minimum reqs".
    Once you've done the first couple of quests, maybe a couple of rounds of slayers in the forrest you're pretty much set for raiding. I'd say that's a pretty fair amount of "grind" (it's not really a grind to do some slayers and a couple of quests is it?) that pretty much opens up the end game.

    That said I wouldn't kick people for not having X HP, I will however be slightly annoyed that people are too lazy to cover the essentials before hopping into a raid group.
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