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  1. #41
    Community Member arkonas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    It's not about easy buttons, it's about removing options from the game.

    I'm ok that only rogues can spot them because in D&D only certain classes can spot magical traps with a DC over a certain threshold. That's awesome.

    I'm not ok with "slow" being "arbitrarily different slow because the DM wants you to be slowed". That's as annoying in DDO as it is in PNP. It's ok for some things to be "different, because of ... you know ... plot" but too much of this really dilutes the game experience ... the inherent mechanics of the game are less of an ordered system.

    I was perfectly fine with having some poisons affect undead and machines. Heck, if Vulkoor or Lolth themselves poison you, you take it. Deity-thing. Now though, there are more and more "unavoidable and arbitrary mechanics" in the game.

    D&D has a rich amount of "this counters-or-dispels that" and "you get past this by having this other thing". I like that. I don't like more and more things moving to-unavoidable-special-exception.




    See, we're all playing rock-paper-scissors. It's ok if every once in a while someone throws in a dynamite - just not too often. When more and more things are tossed in and one side of the game is filled with dynamite, monster trucks, dinosaurs, zombies, dead spiders, horny goats, etc. then it matters less and less if we choose rock, paper or scissors. We're participating less with our actual meaningful choices, and being moved along a set linear path more.

    ok now for the concept of something removing slow like haste. I agree. That should be allowed to happen. But i also see the traps are meant to do many things. hurt you and maim you. When we hamstring stuff i dont see the monsters saying hey the player shouldnt do that.

    I understand its very annoying for some, but honestly i'm not always running back and forth through them. So it slows me down for a few seconds. Im fine with that. i think of it as a grease effect. if they were to remove the slow effect they would probably increase the damage or add other effects. Then people would complain about that.

    yes i can say grab someone with trap skills, but yet again not everyone will wait for that person. No matter what ends up happening people complain, some dont mind while others love it. its just a non ending cycle we will never break. not one player will ever be happy in the game. Something is too hard, too easy, not enough dps, too much dps, etc.

    I'm not saying we cant complain, but change the way we write it. So the slow effect can't be countered and they want say haste to remove it. i understand. there is no issue from it.

    Dispel effects should be allowed to dispel "magical traps". Stuff like that i can understand. But removing things because it slows you down. Hell no. I encourage annoyances, maiming, killing traps, high damage. Isn't that what they are for? Bear traps maim you. spike traps slow you down and do damage.

  2. #42
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkonas View Post
    ok now for the concept of something removing slow like haste. I agree. That should be allowed to happen. But i also see the traps are meant to do many things. hurt you and maim you. When we hamstring stuff i dont see the monsters saying hey the player shouldnt do that.

    I understand its very annoying for some, but honestly i'm not always running back and forth through them. So it slows me down for a few seconds. Im fine with that. i think of it as a grease effect. if they were to remove the slow effect they would probably increase the damage or add other effects. Then people would complain about that.

    yes i can say grab someone with trap skills, but yet again not everyone will wait for that person. No matter what ends up happening people complain, some dont mind while others love it. its just a non ending cycle we will never break. not one player will ever be happy in the game. Something is too hard, too easy, not enough dps, too much dps, etc.

    I'm not saying we cant complain, but change the way we write it. So the slow effect can't be countered and they want say haste to remove it. i understand. there is no issue from it.

    Dispel effects should be allowed to dispel "magical traps". Stuff like that i can understand. But removing things because it slows you down. Hell no. I encourage annoyances, maiming, killing traps, high damage. Isn't that what they are for? Bear traps maim you. spike traps slow you down and do damage.
    It doesn't annoy me because it slows me down. Most of my toons can handle traps.

    It annoys me because they have arbitrarily unique mechanics ... not being able to dispel/disjunct once you see them is part of it. They remove a level of choice.

    Player: "Why am I slow?"
    DM: "Because I said so."
    Player: "I cast haste, that cancels slow."
    DM: "Doesn't work, you're still slow."
    Player: "Why?"
    DM: "Because I said so. Now you're also chained, that slows you even more."
    Player: "Aha, luckily I have my FOM boots, so ..."
    DM: "Yeah, they don't stop it. It's special."
    Player: "****, well I need to get out of here. I mean, I'm a WF PM so I'm pretty tough but those archers could cause some damage."
    DM: "Speaking of which, you've been hit and are now poisoned."
    Player: "Poison? I'm immune!"
    DM: "It's special too."
    Player: "****. Well, lets hurry and kill this guy ahead then. I'm getting annoyed."
    DM: "You can't get to him, there's an invisible wall and he's currently non-hostile. You need to kill some trash before the wall goes down."
    Player: "This is total bull."
    DM: "Don't worry, you'll still win the encounter. Relax, and let it play out. Just follow the plot and don't try to go outside the lines. See, isn't that fun?"
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  3. #43
    Community Member arkonas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    It doesn't annoy me because it slows me down. Most of my toons can handle traps.

    It annoys me because they have arbitrarily unique mechanics ... not being able to dispel/disjunct once you see them is part of it. They remove a level of choice.

    Player: "Why am I slow?"
    DM: "Because I said so."
    Player: "I cast haste, that cancels slow."
    DM: "Doesn't work, you're still slow."
    Player: "Why?"
    DM: "Because I said so. Now you're also chained, that slows you even more."
    Player: "Aha, luckily I have my FOM boots, so ..."
    DM: "Yeah, they don't stop it. It's special."
    Player: "****, well I need to get out of here. I mean, I'm a WF PM so I'm pretty tough but those archers could cause some damage."
    DM: "Speaking of which, you've been hit and are now poisoned."
    Player: "Poison? I'm immune!"
    DM: "It's special too."
    Player: "****. Well, lets hurry and kill this guy ahead then. I'm getting annoyed."
    DM: "You can't get to him, there's an invisible wall and he's currently non-hostile. You need to kill some trash before the wall goes down."
    Player: "This is total bull."
    DM: "Don't worry, you'll still win the encounter. Relax, and let it play out. Just follow the plot and don't try to go outside the lines. See, isn't that fun?"
    ok well think about it this way. you know how bacteria is always changing right? One thing that use to work wont work any longer on it. So we have to find a new way to deal with it. Ok so now in game terms that is what they are doing to us.

    Since the game is always changing a lot of the stuff we use to do wont work. Like in Under the big top a lot of people were using the short cut instead of running the quest. So yeah since that is not the way they intended for it to go they added the wall to it. Same with Maze of Madness. People wouldn't do the maze so yet again they went the short way.

    House of rusted blades was abused xp per min. So they reduced the xp base per min.

    Drow were added with nasty abilities since motu. so they had to change the way disease/poison works. Sure its frustrating at first but honestly i understand it. Now im not saying the slow effect should go away. I do think haste should be able to remove it like it says.

    spell wards should be dispelled since they are well a spell. So when it comes to gods, magical creatures, spells that get around normal stuff. Hell yeah. that is why they were made. It stops those "god toons" from running around like nothing can ever touch them. i dont know what you did in your pen and paper groups if you played.

    in mine my gm was always changing the rules on us as we got more powerful. Sometimes he didnt even think of the stuff we would do. So yeah he will try to throw a wrench into our cycle to disrupt us in our adventures.

  4. #44
    Community Member jwdaniels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkonas View Post
    Since the game is always changing a lot of the stuff we use to do wont work. Like in Under the big top a lot of people were using the short cut instead of running the quest. So yeah since that is not the way they intended for it to go they added the wall to it. Same with Maze of Madness. People wouldn't do the maze so yet again they went the short way.

    House of rusted blades was abused xp per min. So they reduced the xp base per min.
    There is a big difference between fixing a bug that is being exploited or tweaking a reward that is being abused and arbitrarily disregarding game mechanics because a designer wants something to work a certain way but the way they have already designed the game allows characters to be built so that things won't work that way.

    Drow were added with nasty abilities since motu. so they had to change the way disease/poison works. Sure its frustrating at first but honestly i understand it. Now im not saying the slow effect should go away. I do think haste should be able to remove it like it says.
    Warforged were balanced to have poison and disease immunity by having to suffer various other drawbacks - like an inability to equip any of the fancy new armor and a significantly reduced benefit from healing. Some of the benefits to the race were removed but all of the drawbacks were kept in place, again because of an arbitrary decision to bypass game mechanics that were already in place because the designer wanted things to work differently.

    The expansion is set in a different plane of existence - it makes sense that things will be different. However, it is still ultimately the same game, so they still have to remain consistent.


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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwdaniels View Post
    The expansion is set in a different plane of existence - it makes sense that things will be different. However, it is still ultimately the same game, so they still have to remain consistent.
    Forgotten Realms is more of a core plane of existence than Eberron! It's Eberron where the weird stuff is supposed to be, like dragon shards and marks.

    Spell wards are just lazy, stupid, bad design. The game has become rife with such things thanks to the newer expansions. Whoever was doing stuff before where things were internally consistent and made sense doesn't work there any more because all we're getting is sloppy nonsense. Level 60 bartenders, non-magical spell wards, untouchable mobs, yeah, right, we'd be sitting the DM down for a little talk if garbage like that started showing up regularly in our PnP games.

  6. #46
    Community Member MartinusWyllt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkonas View Post
    ok well think about it this way. you know how bacteria is always changing right? One thing that use to work wont work any longer on it. So we have to find a new way to deal with it. Ok so now in game terms that is what they are doing to us.
    Generally this is the result of an R plasmid getting both horizontally (even between very different bacterial families) and vertically transmitted through a population that is under a selection pressure (especially resistance factors that require a gene like beta lactamase)...or single point mutations vertically as is usually the case with aminoglycosides. The genes, like beta lactamase, already existed we're just artificially selecting for them by having an antibiotic rich environment.

    Not sure how that analogy works here.

  7. #47

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    When we hamstring stuff i dont see the monsters saying hey the player shouldnt do that.
    Hamstringing reduces your damage by throwing your attack cycle out, and monsters are nowhere near as impeded by movement drops as players are.

    Hamstrings also require an attack roll. Sure, hitting isn't too difficult, but it's still possible to fail. Spell traps never miss.
    Last edited by Matuse; 12-07-2012 at 06:58 PM.
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  8. #48
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matuse View Post
    Hamstringing reduces your damage by throwing your attack cycle out, and monsters are nowhere near as impeded by movement drops as players are.

    Hamstrings also require an attack role. Sure, hitting isn't too difficult, but it's still possible to fail. Spell traps never miss.
    It's also more difficult for us to do it with a freaking bow.


    Either way, it's DM-fiat that actively ignores other rules and standards to force actions down a single thread.
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  9. #49
    Community Member knightgf's Avatar
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    I will admit, it certainly would be nice if FoM worked as intended on these spell traps, as well as any other spell that would grant the proper immunity to them.

    However, I think the thing that drives me crazy the most is "How exactly do you disarm them!?" The old animation for disarming traps doesn't make sense for these! It's like if Garrett from the Thief series decided to pass through a curtain by slashing through it with a sword instead of just walking through it.
    Here's a riddle for you: What do you call people who play the game for only a day and apparently know everything?

  10. #50
    Community Member Full_Bleed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dterror View Post
    Reason being: Artificers are not trap specialists. Even a generic rogue spends more time learning locks and traps than an artificer does. Artificers are all about tinkering with machines and inventions...traps just happen to be one more type of 'machine' they tinker with.
    Most Arties can (and usually do) have higher Search AND Disable Device skills than most Rogues. From a rules point of view, they are both INT skills... something that usually favors the Arty.

    Now, picking locks? That's where Rogues probably take the lead since it is a Dex skill.

    As for instant disable or picks, I wouldn't have a problem with that. The search animation is plenty long enough to make up for it. But even if the speed buff was +5% per two levels it would be better than what we have now.

  11. #51

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    /signed on reworking the spell traps.

    DM fiat things like that can work in PnP because a person shouldn't run into it over and over (I do find it annoying there too) because the campaign continues. In a game like this it might be okay in a one-time event but but we run the same quests repeatedly to grind gear and the overall effect is not that same as some rare special thing rarely encountered.

    DM fiat is just like giving us a toy and then taking it away again. Daily.
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  12. #52
    The Hatchery karsion's Avatar
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    Ok, I don't understand what people find so disgusting in spell wards other than they are disgusting because they are. They are easily detectable and easily disarmable. The slow effect counters somewhat the biggest problem with normal traps - people just running through them.

    I am not usually with pro gamers on the forums but here I would gladly shout with them - Stop asking for easy buttons!

  13. #53
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karsion View Post
    Ok, I don't understand what people find so disgusting in spell wards other than they are disgusting because they are. They are easily detectable and easily disarmable. The slow effect counters somewhat the biggest problem with normal traps - people just running through them.

    I am not usually with pro gamers on the forums but here I would gladly shout with them - Stop asking for easy buttons!
    Problem statement: Players run through traps.

    Solution #1: Make the trap impossible for them to run through by putting unavoidable mechanics in it that essentially go against all the standard normal mechanics. "You just can't".

    Solution #2: Alter the terrain such that you can't simply run through them, or have multiple overlapping traps so that it is brutally painful.


    The first is DM Fiat.
    Player: "I run through" ...
    DM: "You're slowed"
    Player: "I have FOM"
    DM: "It's special, FOM doesn't work"
    Player: "But FOM says this is what it is for...?"
    DM: "It's special."
    Player: "Ok, well slow is cancelled by haste; I drink a haste pot"
    DM: "You're still slowed."
    Player: "That's totally lame. If you want me to stall here and go slow, don't change the rules. How about if I move really fast and ride my horse through it"
    DM: "Someone slit your pony's throat; that isn't an option either."
    Player: "Jerk"

    The second could be terrain that winds back and forth where the trap can't be disabled without being further at risk ... or maybe several rows of traps overlapping so if you run through you get hit with like 8, which would be incredibly difficult to survive. Maybe a very few players would have a build with improved evasion and the saves to make it through, but some of the traps may hit other saves like fort or will. It actually presents an intellectual problem we could try to solve different ways.
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  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Full_Bleed View Post
    Most Arties can (and usually do) have higher Search AND Disable Device skills than most Rogues.
    Which is pretty irrelevant since it's trivial to get way way more than necessary for any trap in the game even with a 6 int.

  15. #55
    The Hatchery karsion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    Problem statement: Players run through traps.

    Solution #1: Make the trap impossible for them to run through by putting unavoidable mechanics in it that essentially go against all the standard normal mechanics. "You just can't".

    Solution #2: Alter the terrain such that you can't simply run through them, or have multiple overlapping traps so that it is brutally painful.


    The first is DM Fiat.
    Player: "I run through" ...
    DM: "You're slowed"
    Player: "I have FOM"
    DM: "It's special, FOM doesn't work"
    Player: "But FOM says this is what it is for...?"
    DM: "It's special."
    Player: "Ok, well slow is cancelled by haste; I drink a haste pot"
    DM: "You're still slowed."
    Player: "That's totally lame. If you want me to stall here and go slow, don't change the rules. How about if I move really fast and ride my horse through it"
    DM: "Someone slit your pony's throat; that isn't an option either."
    Player: "Jerk"

    The second could be terrain that winds back and forth where the trap can't be disabled without being further at risk ... or maybe several rows of traps overlapping so if you run through you get hit with like 8, which would be incredibly difficult to survive. Maybe a very few players would have a build with improved evasion and the saves to make it through, but some of the traps may hit other saves like fort or will. It actually presents an intellectual problem we could try to solve different ways.
    Well, FoM has been made pretty useless a couple of updates ago. And if you made it in such a way that FoM would negate it then: Arti, Rangers, Clerics and FvS would make the trap a joke. As it is only rogues and artis make it a joke (and unlike FoM you can do all the traps with 1 level of rogue/arti) so what's the point?

    And the rules are being changed constantly when something is considered to be too good. But I agree that the change usually makes the changed thing useless (as it was with FoM)

  16. #56
    Community Member Nitesco's Avatar
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    Spell traps would be fine if they just did damage.

  17. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by karsion View Post
    Well, FoM has been made pretty useless a couple of updates ago. And if you made it in such a way that FoM would negate it then: Arti, Rangers, Clerics and FvS would make the trap a joke. As it is only rogues and artis make it a joke (and unlike FoM you can do all the traps with 1 level of rogue/arti) so what's the point?

    And the rules are being changed constantly when something is considered to be too good. But I agree that the change usually makes the changed thing useless (as it was with FoM)
    With the DM fiat method it's less like rules being changed (because they not; they are different in that particular instance) and more like being told you are not allow to use a bat in baseball and to use a golf club instead. The golf club will make playing baseball with it more interesting and challenging instead of getting a better pitcher and the baseball bat was simply too good at hitting the ball. Yeah, umm, that's what it's supposed to do.

    It's also like being told the rules are changed after the game started by the we say so company simply because they said so. There is a difference between actually changing rules for the better and adding exceptions to the existing rules on a frequent basis.

    Having a tool in at my disposal and simply being allowed to use it sometime and not others, particularly for what it's meant to do in the first place, is very annoying and not a good substitute for making things more interesting or challenging.
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  18. #58
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karsion View Post
    Well, FoM has been made pretty useless a couple of updates ago. And if you made it in such a way that FoM would negate it then: Arti, Rangers, Clerics and FvS would make the trap a joke. As it is only rogues and artis make it a joke (and unlike FoM you can do all the traps with 1 level of rogue/arti) so what's the point?

    And the rules are being changed constantly when something is considered to be too good. But I agree that the change usually makes the changed thing useless (as it was with FoM)
    You're missing the point.

    They chose "slow" instead of anything else, and made it a "special" slow.



    This is the easy way out of encounter design. I hate using words like lazy, because it isn't lazy - they have jobs, deadlines, competing priorities, etc.




    What if, instead, spellwards had multiple individual effects but INSTEAD of using one thing that exists with already-existing counters, we used other options?


    What about, for instance, a series of layered traps doing damage, maybe soundburst/shout-analog and a paralysis effect? That's all 3 saves, and maybe that achieves the same goal of "not letting everyone run through them willy nilly". You could even drop the damage down a bit because the 50% from stunned would be pretty beefy anyway. If you really didn't want folks to run through them, PUT SEVERAL OF THEM CLOSE TOGETHER IN ONE SPOT.

    There, I solved the general problem statement (don't allow folks to just run through them) but didn't alter the mechancis of the universe. In fact, I've made it so most can't, but maybe someone really enterprising with great saves and an epic Robe of Dissonance or a monk doing the moves could maybe figure out a way to bypass then without a rogue. That's far from trivial, but possibly doable and doing so wouldn't be that optimized. Then again, people have made lava-divers and while not super optimized, are fun and a brain exercise ... we get to figure things out using the mechanics of the universe.


    "Because I said so" isn't fun.
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  19. #59
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrkGrismer View Post
    I love the idea, although I am not sure about the enhancement line, but that depends on the enhancement remake. Too many enhancements to have to choose something the majority of groups are really going to 'insist' on.



    I should have put a smiley on the first one, as I was only half-serious about it. I don't think it is really 'fair' that the spell traps don't effect them, I understand they had to make it that way since the AI isn't smart enough to avoid traps. However, most (not all) other traps in the game effect mobs as well as PCs, and killing mobs on their own traps is kind of fun.

    I believe the greater majority of other traps in the game can be avoided. Shoot, most of my characters can run thru fields of bear traps and just see *reflex save* pop up multiple times. I don't think spell traps even give you a save.
    hahaha, that's awesome - yes, smileys help me understand slight sarcasm

    When I read your post I was reminded of how often I'll chase enemies through their blade barriers and firewalls all the while thinking, when I have blade barriers and firewalls up, "why are they so stupid as to fight me here?" I guess because they really, really want me dead! 'cause I want them dead enough to take damage doing the killing.

    I believe I had a save last night when I was too close to a spell trap trying to disarm it. But, yes, there should be some way around them if you can't disarm them. Otherwise, they're just police barricades saying "you cannot pass unless you brought a rogue or artie."

  20. #60
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dterror View Post
    I don't know about 5% because you'd have instant disable at 20, or that rogues and arti should both get the same disable speed.

    For rogues, 5% every 4 levels (25% at 20) with an additional 30% possible through enhancements. Rogue mechanics would get 5% / 10% / 10% at tier 1, 2, 3 for an additional total bonus of 25%

    For arti, 5% every 5 levels (20% at 20), with an additional 15% possible through enhancements

    Reason being: Artificers are not trap specialists. Even a generic rogue spends more time learning locks and traps than an artificer does. Artificers are all about tinkering with machines and inventions...traps just happen to be one more type of 'machine' they tinker with.
    I agree with you, mostly, except for making them in the enhancement line. I can't say about rogues, but arties are super strapped for enhancements. We have no more room.

    I think rogues should be slightly better at traps, or faster. I can't tell you how many times I've out-trapped a rogue on my artie, though. And I all I do is invest every level + best equipment per level.

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