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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by serfs_up View Post
    My toons are almost all rogues and so detection and disarming is really a big problem (even with a hireling dribbling the spell ward like it's a basketball.) My depth perception is not the very best, either.

    I don't know if it's my astigmatism and/or this ancient monitor, but there seems to be a serious lack of consistency in when and where spell wards can be detected and disabled. Some of these inconsistencies seem to exist among the same set of spell wards, like the first set in "The End of the Road." Some of the wards in that grouping seem to be disable-able from what would be 40' in the physical world, but others in that line seem to require sitting on them like a bird who is trying to make them hatch.

    I'm not sure how this could be fixed, or even how to accurately describe the problem, but the traps themselves and their effects don't seem unreasonable, outside of this strange inconsistency. The co-pirate/far-better-half who has no interest in computer gaming beyond spider solitaire thinks the inconsistency is bizarre. (Or maybe she just wanted me to shut up about it.)
    This would really be helped if when they are found in a 'search' either a sphere or a ring appears showing their disable spot. Even better if one ring appears for disable and another for the 'danger zone' (when the damage/effects will occur).


    Quote Originally Posted by MajMalphunktion View Post
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  2. #102
    Lead Developer PurpleFooz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrande View Post
    Dear Purple,

    Does More powerful versions of dispel spells include Greater Dispel (level 6) and Mordenkainen's Disjunction, a level 9 arcane spell? I do not think any arcane caster is slotting these spells at the moment on live. Or are you talking a new dispel spell like Purple's Disjunction?
    We won't be creating new spells just for this mechanic, as much as I'd like to get a spell named after me. All pre-existing spells with dispel effects will work, including Mordenkainen's Disjunction.

  3. #103
    Founder Chaos000's Avatar
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    I wish they added the epic trapfinding feat. kind of annoying to have to actively search (turning off autoattack ) when my spot goes off.

    Epic Trapfinding: Search 25 ranks Spot 25 ranks trapfinding trap ability

    If you pass within 5 feet of a trap, you are entitled to a Search check to notice it as if you were actively looking for it.

    Translation into the game is when your spot goes off, if you exceed the dc by X with your search bonuses, the box/bear trap/spelltrap/pit trap will appear.

    I am willing to spend a feat and permanantly slot a search/spot item in order to bypass the annoying mechanic of having to manually toggle my autoattack.
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  4. #104
    Lead Developer PurpleFooz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    Do you think it is possible to only add a light circle around the spell wards (once discovered), that show up the range of them? Just like already happens with activated Symbol spells.
    We actually had an early iteration before MotU shipped that tried to do this. But it turned out to be very difficult to get our visual techniques to draw a boundary that was perfectly accurate to the detection settings of our traps' physics system. If the boundary was just a little bit off, then it'd be unacceptable misinformation.

    We also tried ways of getting our physics system to directly output the boundaries through rendering techniques - but the dynamically generated result was horrendously ugly. We would have needed new technologies to integrate visuals get it up to our visual standards.

    In the end, we decided to abandon the efforts and put our time on other features.

  5. #105
    Community Member Llewndyn's Avatar
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    Default This is oddly soothing information

    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleFooz View Post
    We actually had an early iteration before MotU shipped that tried to do this. But it turned out to be very difficult to get our visual techniques to draw a boundary that was perfectly accurate to the detection settings of our traps' physics system. If the boundary was just a little bit off, then it'd be unacceptable misinformation.

    We also tried ways of getting our physics system to directly output the boundaries through rendering techniques - but the dynamically generated result was horrendously ugly. We would have needed new technologies to integrate visuals get it up to our visual standards.

    In the end, we decided to abandon the efforts and put our time on other features.
    And I accept this. There we are, it's all settled. You can close the thread now, I approve.

    What would be cool is a dolurrh like effect to a lesser extent, possibly with the beginning standoff music from Kill Bill and the camera zooming in on the trap, then the rogue's eyes, then the trap, then the rogues eyes, back and forth. As the rogue disables the trap, Cory Hart's "Sunglasses at Night" should play and rollerskating ninjas should come out of the mountains surrounding the trap and pull it away in a Ben Hur- style chariot. This is keeping in the way everyone plays PnP traps, though for licensing purposes sometimes we use a cat to pull the spells away instead of a real Liger, those are expensive to maintain.
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  6. #106
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleFooz View Post
    We actually had an early iteration before MotU shipped that tried to do this. But it turned out to be very difficult to get our visual techniques to draw a boundary that was perfectly accurate to the detection settings of our traps' physics system. If the boundary was just a little bit off, then it'd be unacceptable misinformation.

    We also tried ways of getting our physics system to directly output the boundaries through rendering techniques - but the dynamically generated result was horrendously ugly. We would have needed new technologies to integrate visuals get it up to our visual standards.

    In the end, we decided to abandon the efforts and put our time on other features.
    I do not like your solution. On my rogue I find spell traps/ward very annoying. I know a trap is there, but I do not know how close I should be in able to disarm the trap without taking damage. I am constantly too far away to disable the trap or too close to the trap thus taking damage. I would rather you guys not put spell wards in the game until you make it clearer for rogues. Go back to the old traps please.
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  7. #107
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaos000 View Post
    I am willing to spend a feat and permanantly slot a search/spot item in order to bypass the annoying mechanic of having to manually toggle my autoattack.
    I don't think they'd ever stick such in game like that. However, it would be nice if one has 10 levels of rogue or arti, that when the spot goes off, they get one blip of the "laser pointers" so you can get a clue of where to start, then search again for it to "laser point" and "sonar wave" the box. After all, the "spot" does mean your character saw and your character knows exactly where to look. The game really should tell the player more information than "spider sense tingling." Search gives up the details about said trap.

    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleFooz View Post
    If the boundary was just a little bit off, then it'd be unacceptable misinformation.
    But as yet that same sort of "unacceptable misinformation" happens all the time with buff circles. The buff application extends beyond the graphical representation. Players deal. Now if it was way off, then that would be unacceptable misinformation (which could lead to some great trap scares if the "search" check wasn't high enough. )
    So in the short run, give us the warning. If you are only a little off, frankly, we are used to it.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleFooz View Post
    We actually had an early iteration before MotU shipped that tried to do this. But it turned out to be very difficult to get our visual techniques to draw a boundary that was perfectly accurate to the detection settings of our traps' physics system. If the boundary was just a little bit off, then it'd be unacceptable misinformation.

    We also tried ways of getting our physics system to directly output the boundaries through rendering techniques - but the dynamically generated result was horrendously ugly. We would have needed new technologies to integrate visuals get it up to our visual standards.

    In the end, we decided to abandon the efforts and put our time on other features.
    Thank you for actually explaining why you guys didn't implement the system, it is greatly appreciated.

  9. #109
    Founder THAC0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Llewndyn View Post
    And I accept this. There we are, it's all settled. You can close the thread now, I approve.

    What would be cool is a dolurrh like effect to a lesser extent, possibly with the beginning standoff music from Kill Bill and the camera zooming in on the trap, then the rogue's eyes, then the trap, then the rogues eyes, back and forth. As the rogue disables the trap, Cory Hart's "Sunglasses at Night" should play and rollerskating ninjas should come out of the mountains surrounding the trap and pull it away in a Ben Hur- style chariot. This is keeping in the way everyone plays PnP traps, though for licensing purposes sometimes we use a cat to pull the spells away instead of a real Liger, those are expensive to maintain.

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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleFooz View Post
    We actually had an early iteration before MotU shipped that tried to do this. But it turned out to be very difficult to get our visual techniques to draw a boundary that was perfectly accurate to the detection settings of our traps' physics system. If the boundary was just a little bit off, then it'd be unacceptable misinformation.

    We also tried ways of getting our physics system to directly output the boundaries through rendering techniques - but the dynamically generated result was horrendously ugly. We would have needed new technologies to integrate visuals get it up to our visual standards.

    In the end, we decided to abandon the efforts and put our time on other features.
    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    But as yet that same sort of "unacceptable misinformation" happens all the time with buff circles. The buff application extends beyond the graphical representation. Players deal. Now if it was way off, then that would be unacceptable misinformation (which could lead to some great trap scares if the "search" check wasn't high enough. )
    So in the short run, give us the warning. If you are only a little off, frankly, we are used to it.
    This is spot-on, IMO. I would much rather have a ring that showed the general area and I had to 'inch up to' the ring then the current 'total guess but if it goes off you are too close'.

    As for the 'horribly' ugly. I have to wonder if that horribly ugly was mostly transparent and somewhat blurry if it would more than suffice. Especially for something like spell wards if it was mostly a matter of looking for 'the disturbance in the weave' I think it would be quite appropriate.


    Quote Originally Posted by MajMalphunktion View Post
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  11. #111
    The Front Side Gratch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I do not like your solution. On my rogue ... too close to the trap thus taking damage.
    My ftr18/rog2 with just enough dex for TWF has no issue finding the latest content EE spell wards by bumping into them then backing off and disabling. Your complaint would seem more valid coming from a non-improved-evasion artificer than a rogue. Even the hireling rogues are serviceable to disable that same EE trap set.

    Reduce the slow effect duration and I'm happy with spellwards as implemented.

    Hopefully the devs feel free to be more devious with traps once in a while. Random placement spellwards/bear traps if it fits a dungeon. Spellwards/bear traps in Eberron and mechanical traps in Faerun is all good - if it fits a dungeon location.
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  12. #112
    Community Member fco-karatekid's Avatar
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    Why not 85% transparent globe of invuln graphic... or is that what you tried? this whole guess the trigger radius is fine onEH and below, but EE borders on player griefing.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbqzor View Post
    Very wrong. PnP Dispel is just an opposed check, nothing prevents it from working on spells with caster level above 20 other than not having enough bonuses to make the roll.
    He meant, I assume, that you can only get a +20 on your roll (+10 for regular dispel). This makes anything beyond CL 40 undispelable. Thanks to them nerfing disjunction to use the same mechanic instead of auto-success, and thanks to them mishandling monster CR we are now regularly fighting things that are well over level 40. Heck we have level 60 bartenders if you can possibly believe that, there is no use for dispel like there is in PnP, but we still have the spells.

    Draining CR is silly and does not fit with the 3E rules at all, but it's better to have a bandage on spellwards than to let the wound bleed.

    Quote Originally Posted by bbqzor View Post
    Chain Dispel, in PH2 p105, even allows flat caster level up to 25 by itself without any bonuses. There is no reason dispel should not be allowed to work on these as a legacy of PnP rules or conventions.
    We don't have Chain Dispel in DDO and Disjunction, which doesn't require a roll in PnP does in DDO.

    Quote Originally Posted by bbqzor View Post
    Additionally, I am not aware of any supernatural traps in PnP 3.5... only mechanical and magical ones. Not that it should have any bearing on this, but considering your previous post mentioning divergence as undesirable, it seems worth noting. If there are any, a reference would be appreciated.
    Supernatural IS magic by 3E rules. Which make sense because it has the same meaning outside of 3E too.

    Quote Originally Posted by bbqzor View Post
    In short, the Dev-proposed changes should include fixing FoM to blanket work, and perhaps allow other solutions such as slow-removing effects to work. Thanks.
    FoM should definitely work. There is also no reason why these should be hidden as players can easily spot magical effects normally, so having them not be spot-able is internally inconsistent. Also not allowing true seeing to see them also breaks that.

  14. #114
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gratch View Post
    My ftr18/rog2 with just enough dex for TWF has no issue finding the latest content EE spell wards by bumping into them then backing off and disabling. Your complaint would seem more valid coming from a non-improved-evasion artificer than a rogue. Even the hireling rogues are serviceable to disable that same EE trap set.

    Reduce the slow effect duration and I'm happy with spellwards as implemented.

    Hopefully the devs feel free to be more devious with traps once in a while. Random placement spellwards/bear traps if it fits a dungeon. Spellwards/bear traps in Eberron and mechanical traps in Faerun is all good - if it fits a dungeon location.
    Thanks for invalidating a complaint a complaint which you sound like you are having the same problems with. Bumping into and then backing off and disabling is not a solution. I am a rogue thus I do not find and disble traps with my face if I know that they are there, but rather I find traps and disable traps with my skills.

    I am o.k. with randomizing trap locations, but I am not a fan of if I know a trap is there and can see the trap having to disable it in the current manner spell wards are being disabled - there is no art or skill I might as well be a barbarian running by the trap.
    Last edited by maddmatt70; 12-11-2012 at 01:39 PM.
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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Thanks for invalidating a complaint a complaint which you sound like you are having the same problems with. Bumping into and then backing off and disabling is not a solution. I am a rogue thus I do not find and disble traps with my face if I know that they are there, but rather I find traps and disable traps with my skills.

    I am o.k. with randomizing trap locations, but I am not a fan of if I know a trap is there and can see the trap having to disable it in the current manner spell wards are being disabled - there is no art or skill I might as well be a barbarian running by the trap.
    It's filled with just as much skill as trying to get anything else that is "pressure" sensitive. You wouldn't dash up, really quick to something that is triggered by movement that is close enough.

    No, art and dexterity would imply gracefully walking up slowly, so your feet make no impression whatsoever, and cautiously maneuvering the gears to disable. I take my time with my rogue ((and im not saying you dont)) and I have yet to have a SINGLE issue with these new traps.

    I'm sorry you have had a hard time with them, your frustration is valid. Just like my joy and interest in how the new traps currently work is. The spells look cool, they are more devastating than our old traps and there is a "zerg way" through just like the old traps often had a way around. The only difference is, now it's pain and some utility spells to slow you down. You still get to rush through the trap, but now it is an added level of pain, which makes an added level of want for a trapper ((a job many of us enjoy, but not many can wait for))

    As for them choosing to opt out of the "glowing circle" to show it's area because boundaries would be incorrect, I'm glad they decided not to use it. Sure, you can all point out how we are "USED" to buff circles not having correct visual range, but being "USED" to buggy mechanics does not mean they should stick with that as their quality.

    They want to improve, that is a good thing. Don't heckle them to rush things out. I see more complaints over bugs and how things DON'T WORK PERFECTLY than I do people saying "Rush out my idea buggy, I wont mind, honest".

    I am all for some kind of border to help aid people however. Hopefully in the future the Dev's can come back and find a way to make that code work.

    They CLEARLY do have other things they should be getting their people working on, as many of us have pointed out in other threads on other issues. ((and please, as much as it is true that you could say "Well dont release it until it works" it was done, lets not go there))

  16. #116
    Community Member xxScoobyDooxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrkGrismer View Post
    1. No. I said Invisible Spell Wards that are completely impossible to disable. A car alarm usually has a blinking red light, and are far from impossible to disable.

    2. Please list ten good movies that completely lack internal consistency.

    3. If there are ways to get past them on 'your squishy Wizard' then they are not 'non-bypassible'. Apple, meet Orange.

    4. am not asking to nerf anything. I am asking for spell traps to be 'tweaked' to make them better and more consistent with the rest of the game. The changes I actually proposed would be relatively minor and have very little effect on spell traps other than way lowering the annoyance factor.
    1. lol again ... "USUALLY" have a red flashing light ... mine doesn't and most modern good alarms don't any more .... your example is exactly my point .... sometimes you won't know it's there as no flashing red light doesn't mean no alarm. Bad example for you again

    2. lol lol ... no you list 1 million movies that do .... oh thats silly but so is your request of my time.

    3. I won't argue double negatives ... it hurts my brain.

    4. The only sensible part in your retort... Like they tweeked two handed fighting ... or madstone boots or wail etc etc etc... one mans tweek can sometimes be another mans nerf.

    I love the spellwards as they are ... Any changes that make them different in my opinion is a bad thing. The OP was asking for changes and supplied feedback for the devs. My opinion in this is just as valid whether you agree or not as the Devs need to see that not all of us agree with the OP. Neg repping for this is also poor form.
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  17. #117
    Community Member xxScoobyDooxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Thanks for invalidating a complaint a complaint which you sound like you are having the same problems with. Bumping into and then backing off and disabling is not a solution. I am a rogue thus I do not find and disble traps with my face if I know that they are there, but rather I find traps and disable traps with my skills.

    I am o.k. with randomizing trap locations, but I am not a fan of if I know a trap is there and can see the trap having to disable it in the current manner spell wards are being disabled - there is no art or skill I might as well be a barbarian running by the trap.
    My rogue spots them before they go off which seems to be the intended way this new mechanic should work. Also if you move carefully forward you can disarm without setting off so I don't understand the issues here. Having some twich skills to do this all at speed I think is a good thing for the game. Good and bad rogues or any trapper for that matter becomes more than just a 65+ disable skill for the win. Doing this should mean spell wards never get set off.

    I can understand soloers with no ability to get past them effectivly being frustrated etc ... but I don't get any trapper not liking these. Am I missing something here?
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  18. #118
    Community Member xxScoobyDooxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I do not like your solution. On my rogue I find spell traps/ward very annoying. I know a trap is there, but I do not know how close I should be in able to disarm the trap without taking damage. I am constantly too far away to disable the trap or too close to the trap thus taking damage. I would rather you guys not put spell wards in the game until you make it clearer for rogues. Go back to the old traps please.
    ahhh I missed this post .... you are doing it wrong ... if you spot the trap ... you search and it appears ... you then move forward very slowly ... tap your move forward one tap at a time with your crosshair on the trap until you see the crosshair change to a disable cog. Then disable without setting off. 100% succesrate doing it this way.

    People arguing for change because they are doing it wrong is very bad for this game.
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  19. #119
    Community Member xxScoobyDooxx's Avatar
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    More tips for those having difficulty with these

    ... if you do this in sneak mode you can do this all undetected and remain in sneak mode after you diable it. This is very usefull in a number of quests. Sneak mode also slows your movement rate so the tap forward is less likely to move you to far and set the trap off etc.

    I also generally tap forward once tap disable once tap forward once tap disable one until I actually start disabling it .... just means I don't have to rely on the visuals being correct (i.e missing the cog change on the crosshair)

    I would be interested in hearing from anyone who was complaining about disabling these trying my suggestions and coming back and reposting.
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  20. #120
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxScoobyDooxx View Post
    ahhh I missed this post .... you are doing it wrong ... if you spot the trap ... you search and it appears ... you then move forward very slowly ... tap your move forward one tap at a time with your crosshair on the trap until you see the crosshair change to a disable cog. Then disable without setting off. 100% succesrate doing it this way.

    People arguing for change because they are doing it wrong is very bad for this game.
    So your saying I have to be in mouselook to play rogue with spell traps. No thanks. That might explain some of the issue as these do not appear to be friendly to non mouselook play.
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