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  1. #21
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan_Milic View Post
    But in the demons den,I have no idea why I never did it,saw lfm maybe once or twice for it,will try to complete it this life.
    One reason is because the quest is very challenging. Even level 25s might have a hard time holding an invulnerable elite marilith (that randomly loses agro) while the rest of the party deal with the efreets.

    The second reason is that, even with the quest being free, the quest giver is hidden in a corner of Inspired Quarters.If you don't look the map for the golden chalice, many people miss her completelly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilindith View Post
    There's no such thing as running normal or hard anymore ever since they added bravery bonuses.
    And honestly, I see that as a problem. I'm a firm believer that an elite completion should be earned, and not granted. Just raising numbers turn the elite completion into a gear check, and not a skill check. It should be a mix of both.
    Last edited by nibel; 12-05-2012 at 12:51 AM.
    Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma


    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  2. #22
    Community Member Dawnsfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    And honestly, I see that as a problem. I'm a firm believer that an elite completion should be earned, and not granted. Just raising numbers turn the elite completion into a gear check, and not a skill check. It should be a mix of both.
    Turbine created that problem. People kept complaining about the amount of xp TRs needed and Madfloyd responded by designing the Bravery Bonus. The actual TR bonus part got left out but honestly, who needs the added xp more?

    I suspect people will expect elite runs to be accessible in heroic quests as long as the streak xp exists.

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    I’m only nerfing you now so I can buff you later.

  3. #23
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    Default Very fundamentally different philosophies

    Not to sound combative but I don't think we'll get anywhere with this discussion.

    I commend the OP and I think the opinion was stated well and that it was pertinent.

    On the one hand, you have players that enjoy variety, challenges, commensurate reward for investment, and a sense of achievement. I feel I fall in this camp, and that makes me support the idea of promoting a real sense of difficulty brackets.

    Currently, the game is basically one difficulty in heroic levels--elite--and since the devs have shown themselves capable of creating nuances in the difficulty of some quests, I'd appreciate them doing the same for new quests. Similarly, if they could revisit the experience and loot rewards for certain quests of disproportionate reward (Ex: Shadow Crypt) or difficulty (Ex: In the Flesh) and balance them, that would go a long way in making the game feel more satisfying.

    On the other hand, we have some players that enjoy grinding out _______ many times with little variation. They likely know how to get a legend reincarnation in the mathematically most efficient combination of only seventy two quests. They probably enjoy the quest Kobold Assault. They probably avoid lots of quests that involve puzzles. I do not feel I fall in this camp.

    Anyway, the worst I think that could happen from a comprehensive redistribution of difficulty and reward in the quest system is that people in the latter camp would run hard ad nauseum instead and, with some gumption, could reap even more rewards in elite than previously just by getting some tactics.
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  4. #24
    The Hatchery MRMechMan's Avatar
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    I'd /sign the pants off of this if the non-favor rewards from EE were worth it.

    As it stands, the 14,000/14,500/15,000 model of xp and the barely better items makes EE a PITA for almost nothing more. >risk should= >reward

  5. #25
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    The change I would suggest is not very hard to implement, and, after all, is not really big.
    On elite quests, change some traps from elemental to force, and some casters to use arcane bolt and blasts instead of some elemental spells. There is no resist energy protecting from force damage, so we would have a bit harder quests, and people would stop wailing comlaints about overpowered ship resists. The change would not be massively deadly, as its just 30 more damage
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  6. #26
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    funny. the OP mentioned quests that are on my "most hated" list. i have to be bribed with candy and loot to run in the Demon's Den on anything harder than normal, and i outright avoided In The Flesh this life (i finally ended up running it on normal 2 levels later, just to complete the chain)

    if ALL quests were like those two... i would probably stop playing. I, laid back staunch supporter who will probably keep playing until the game is closed... would stop playing if the whole game became like those two quests.

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  7. #27
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    funny. the OP mentioned quests that are on my "most hated" list. i have to be bribed with candy and loot to run in the Demon's Den on anything harder than normal, and i outright avoided In The Flesh this life (i finally ended up running it on normal 2 levels later, just to complete the chain)
    I don't get all that talk about in the flesh. Its a tough quest for sure, but its still a cake walk compared to acute deliruim.
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  8. #28
    The Hatchery Syllph's Avatar
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    I'd thought of this before and posted as well, the response I got was something like:

    How many people run In the Demon's Den?
    How many people run rusted Blades?

    That's why it's not done this way.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    That, or just using this philosophy on the next quests they are making right now (U19, maybe). No need to go back and change every quest for that, but would be awesome on the next ones.
    Wishful thinking?
    Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma


    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    Wishful thinking?
    Dont necro your own posts, bad form...

    Especially when its a horrible idea :P

    I dont want to see solo quests made unsoloable at Elite because of a change in mechanics. Small Problem is already nigh-on impossible, at-level for Elite Bravery Bonus, because the endfight wolf that delevels you, when at L7 there are no defenses against deleveling. Same with Demon's Den, its utterly unsoloable at Hard or Elite when you're level-appropriate.

    If these didnt count for BB (like Devil Assault), its one thing...but otherwise, 80% of the playerbase is just going to ignore the content, so why make it that way? Why waste the resources on a convoluted quest that only appeals to a small percent of the playerbase? Most players dont want a puzzle game, they want an action game. Most players dont like arbitrary mechanics that end up causing frustrating losses more often than satisfying victories.

    Just look at Abbott raid....good, useful rewards (ie Quiver), but no one runs it - not because its dangerous, but just because it has funky convoluted mechanics that just arent -fun- to play.

  11. #31
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    at L7 there are no defenses against deleveling.
    Clerics have access to Deathward at level 7. Visor of Flesh Render are ML 7 as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Same with Demon's Den, its utterly unsoloable at Hard or Elite when you're level-appropriate.


    Not mine, of course. And before EDs.

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Just look at Abbott raid....good, useful rewards (ie Quiver), but no one runs it - not because its dangerous, but just because it has funky convoluted mechanics that just arent -fun- to play.
    I think the biggest problem with Abbot is the flagging mechanic. I don't bother to search for sigils on half of my characters.
    Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma


    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    Clerics have access to Deathward at level 7. Visor of Flesh Render are ML 7 as well.

    Not mine, of course. And before EDs.
    If you're not a Cleric and dont have Tangleroot? Your only option is to hope someone posts a Potion of Death Ward on the AH, and those are only obtainable from 5x rare Abbott Ring turn-ins in Necro, or a seasonal event. A little bit of rock-paper-scissors gear requirements is OK - things like Deathblock, or Underwater Action, that are acquireable by anyone - but requiring a specific item from one pack to do a quest from another is not.

    I dont share your apparent philosophy that Elite should be reserved for geared-out, super-hardcore powergamer types, who can tank a L20 Elite Marilith solo for 15 mins while they herd and take out red-named Efreeti. Elite/EE raids are for those powergamer types, and they're welcome to them, but for non-raid/non-group-specific content, I'm against the "hardcoreification" of the game that takes content away from more casual players just to satisfy someone's need to epeen themselves, AFAICT.

    Elite should be a challenge, of course - but one that any class (not just the OP FOTW build), adequately (but not perfectly) geared for the level, and well-versed in their class' playstyle, should be able to accomplish. Gating content doesnt serve the game well at all.

    If there was no bonus for running on Elite - if it was the same rewards you got on Hard - then I'd be fine with it being a "super challenge mode" just for bragging rights. But when you give increased rewards for it, its not fair to gate it from a major subset of your playerbase.

  13. #33
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  14. #34
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    If you're not a Cleric and dont have Tangleroot?
    You open a group looking for a cleric.

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    I dont share your apparent philosophy that Elite should be reserved for geared-out, super-hardcore powergamer types
    Neither do I.

    I said that, right now, most Elite quests are just the same Normal quest, with the mobs having inflated numbers (more HP, more AC, better saves, more damage). That is not increased challenge. Is a gear check. If you have this much HP, you can survive an elite mob beating. If you have this much DPS, you can dispatch the elite mobs quick enough. If you have this much DCs you can land your spells...

    Even plain old harbor have differences on difficulties. Hard kobold shamans use Hold Person. Elite Kobold shaman use Bestow Curse and Lightning Bolt.

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Elite should be a challenge, of course - but one that any class (not just the OP FOTW build), adequately (but not perfectly) geared for the level, and well-versed in their class' playstyle, should be able to accomplish.
    1) That screenshot predates Epic Destinies.

    2) I said that this was not my achievment.

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    If there was no bonus for running on Elite - if it was the same rewards you got on Hard - then I'd be fine with it being a "super challenge mode" just for bragging rights. But when you give increased rewards for it, its not fair to gate it from a major subset of your playerbase.
    We had that for a while. People only ran elite once for favor and farmed normal. And it was not a "super challenge mode" because people wanted the favor anyway.

    One thing I agree with you. We have different policies. I think Elite should be a difficulty set to be a challenge for good players (not uber) with good gear (not uber). It should be reasonable to run with a full party (but unless it is a guild party with awesome players, they should expect no completion). Soloing an elite quest at level should be an achievment by itself.

    This can't be achieved with inflated numbers. Mobs need to vary tactics (like harbor kobolds), quests should be given more objectives (like Small Problem), or mob composition should be changed (like In The Flesh).
    Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma


    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  15. #35
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    If you mean elite difficulty shouldn't be hpx10, damage output x10, I agree. If you mean you need to jump through three times more hoops to complete than on normal or hard (such as in In the Demon's Den), then no, thank you.

  16. #36

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    I'm all for the suggested. But not in F2P quests... I'm a passionate pugger and let me tell you, chances to finish elite Demons Den on lvl in a regular pug are under 50%. And after all the usual chaos, time and resources spent you end up with under-avereige xp and 5 chests full of the crapiest loot you can imagine.

    Also, since this quest requires one person to kite and 3 splits to finnish the efeet most of the party should be self-sufficient. That's an unreasonable requirement for any lvl, let alone a heroic lvl quest. (Yeah i guess you could get the all the efeet to the center but how long does that take?)
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredericko View Post
    If you mean elite difficulty shouldn't be hpx10, damage output x10, I agree. If you mean you need to jump through three times more hoops to complete than on normal or hard (such as in In the Demon's Den), then no, thank you.
    Don't get too atached to a specific example. I'm asking for the idea, and using it as an example of small stuff that completelly improve difficulty.

    In The Flesh is more or less the same quest, but adding beholders on the last fight on elite forces the group to change tactics. One place where something similar can be used is Prison of Planes. We have 8 rooms and require 5 orbs to activate the central room. Require us to get 6 orbs on hard and 7 orbs on elite. Small change, but you reduce the number of rooms that can be skipped.

    Madstone can use something similar too. On normal, the Seer is a static NPC on the bottom of the cavern that you should talk to after beating the skeleton mage. On Hard is like today. On Elite you should escort the seer to the crystal (and he should be sturdier, Brawnpits-like).

    Basically, anything that means "quest gets harder and not only because mobs are stronger"
    Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma


    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    1) That screenshot predates Epic Destinies.
    FOTW = Flavor Of The Week, not Fury Of The Wild There's always OP FOTW builds in any MMO that has builds...

    And yes, I think everyone can agree that Elite quests shouldnt just mean bigger bags of HP. But I think where you're losing people is with your ItDD example, because that isnt just "the same as Normal/Hard, but more"...its completely different than Normal/Hard, and thats what people dont like.

    Whatever the challenges are on Normal, Hard and Elite should take and make more challenging. If a quest is just a tank n spank, though, where the challenge of the quest is just killing lots of mobs (ie Kobold Assault), that means that Elite is probably just going to be bigger numbers...

    Expanding caster spellbooks? Check. But I think every caster mob has expanded spellbooks on Elite, as it is.

    Better mob tactics? Sure, though thats often easier said than coded.

    Additional objectives? Great, as long as its not doing something completely different than the rest of the quest, ie a stealth objective on an otherwise combat quest, or the caster mobs suddenly change from Evocation, reflex-save spells to instakill will-save spells.

    And arbitrary, deus-ex-machina challenges are the worst, your ItDD being the best example. Having an invuln Marilith chasing you around isnt really a challenge, its just an arbitrary obstacle to deal with while you otherwise complete the quest the same way. Same with requiring the Efreeti to all be killed together...it doesnt require more skill, it just requires you to change your playstyle to suit the arbitrary requirements, ie someone tank the Marilith while everyone drags the Efreeti to the central chamber to kill them all together. Thats not how people "play the game" normally, unless the quest mechanics force them to, its not "natural DDO play", and its not even how the quest was presumably designed to be completed. Its a workaround.

  19. #39
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    FOTW = Flavor Of The Week, not Fury Of The Wild There's always OP FOTW builds in any MMO that has builds...
    And by OP you mean Over Powered, and not Original Poster. Got it, then.

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    If a quest is just a tank n spank, though, where the challenge of the quest is just killing lots of mobs (ie Kobold Assault), that means that Elite is probably just going to be bigger numbers...
    That I can agree with. But shall we count the tank and spank quests in DDO?

    -Cannith Crystal (Korthos)
    -Kobold Assault
    -Haverdasher
    -Baundry 1
    -Devil Assault
    -Threnal East 3
    -Last Stand
    -Finding the Path (IQ)
    -Weapons Shipment

    Did I miss any other quest that is basically "go to a room and stand there killing everything?" There are other quests with some part being tak and spank, but those are the only ones that I remember that are only that.
    Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma


    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  20. #40
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    /signed.

    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post

    Some more uses for Religious/Arcane/Wilderness lore might be useful for this too. Like adding a neutral NPC at the start of "Purge the Heretics", and if you have religious lore, might even turn the quest into a dialogue chain against the bosses, where you try to convert them to the Silver Flame. If you have enough skill for it, you got good XP without fights. If you fail, you trigger the current quest, where the devouts try to defende themselves against you.

    It would be nice to have more skill, lore, dragonmark, and favor base npc checks in quests to give the quests more dynamics and dimension. One of the House Cannith quests utilizes House Cannith Favor / Dragonmark of Making (and the bluff skill as well). This skill check is a favorite of one of my characters in particular!

    Perhaps make some quests with some kind of mandatory skill check... How about Haywire Foundry, for instance.

    That warforged buddy that you talk to? On Normal, you just talk to him and he lets you through. On hard, you have to succeed with a bluff/diplo/intim check in order for him to let you through, if you fail, he teleports you into something similar to what happens in Running with the Devils, or summons guards or... arcane oozies. On elite, the same thing would happen, except that most warforged (in VON) are chaotic, and this guy won't talk to anyone that is lawful.. so if your lawful paladin might have a hard time making an intimidation check.

    Just a thought, it might not have to be so harsh, I suppose.

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