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  1. #1
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    Default Let them Eat Cake

    I think the failure in the MMO industry is that they build from a product/consumer model. If you have been keeping up with the recent financial hit that all MMO's have taken in the recent years, it is clear that there is something that is not being addressed by these companies.

    In my opinion players of an MMO are more like a society of immigrants that have chosen to dwell in that society. However when game developers and managers give cake instead of bread those civilians will have to eventually find something else.

    I am not speaking of the doom and gloom of DDO, but addressing an issue with MMO's as a whole. Often you will see threads about "fix the bugs" or fix quality of life things, but all we get is another non functional pet to buy, or some extravagant +4 tomes. Then those that defend the game will say "all MMOs have problems, blah blah blah"

    That is my point exactly. There is a flaw in the MMO design treating players as customers rather than citizens. It is the day to day mechanics and ease of flow of game that keeps players coming back again and again. Getting that rush when you pull a rare item or something that you have grinded for months is awesome, however getting to that point requires a lot of patience and diligence. If players, are held up on that way by constant inconveniences, they will have more time to recognize a game's shortcomings. If I have to go over a bumpy road that damages my car every time I go to my favorite restaurant, guess what, I'm going to find a different restaurant or just eat at home.

    Seemingly innocuous things can really make an impact in the long run.
    Stone of Change: the graphic and animations are so slow that After I crunched one stack of syberies dragonshards, I stopped and won't do it again. Things should be as fast as a click. The cool downs are way too slow.

    I know that they are probably working on the collision coding issue but being teleported from inside a raid to korthos is rather frustrating.

    Some quests still have spelling mistakes and have had them for years. That is the gross oversight of simple things that can be easily addressed but aren't.

  2. #2
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    Hi,

    I agree with most of what you've said here.

    The guiding principle is money money money, and the customer service model seems to be how far can the company let things slip before it really starts to hurt them financially.

    I think those of us who are concerned about these things will have our moment of truth after the quality of life updates. DDO is generally a great game which is rapidly falling to pieces. It would be really nice to see that trend reversed.

    Thanks.
    Astrican on Khyber

  3. #3
    Community Member Zorth's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Citizens caught my eye in this well said thread.

    This game should focus on a collective that is what it is, Citizens.

    The infrustructure of the game would benefit 100 fold.
    The Blood of the Red Dragon

  4. #4
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zorth View Post
    This game should focus on a collective that is what it is, Citizens.
    So, leaving DDO aside for the moment, another game that was far more contingent on citizenship had a large number of citizens that thought it was ok to hack, use macros to advance their character, and sell in-game assets for real world compensation.

    Another large group of citizens didn't particularly like that aspect of the game and decided the game wasn't for them.

    Another large number of citizens didn't really care that much about what other people were doing, but the mere absence of the second large group of people made the game rather small, so they didn't hang around.

    With extensive experience with MMOs, you learn that there is simply nothing a developer can do to deter a community (citizenship) that sticks together and has the tools to manage its own success. It will succeed in spite of shortcomings in the game. The only thing that will kill it is having a different community competing for gamespace that has an entirely incompatible set of priorities.

    Welcome to MMOland.
    Last edited by Raithe; 12-02-2012 at 08:20 PM.

  5. #5
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    I agree with pretty much everything said here.

    Speaking from semi-casual player's point of view, I would say the game has more than enough content as is.

    The way DDO works, with TR'ing and very high (as far as MMOs go) content replayability, even if they stopped adding new things for a year or more I'd still would not be able to catch up with all the stuff I want to do, nor would I run out of things to do in game. I mean there's still classes I haven't tried playing, build ideas that will likely just remain only ideas, etc.

    And if they actually (gasp) took that time to iron out all the bugs, issues and inconviniences, that would be a major turn-on for me. Smooth game experience is largely what keeps me playing (and paying).

    Inevitably, though, there's someone "up there" at every MMO company, who keeps looking at revenue figures, and keeps pushing for new content to be added, as in their mind, new content = revenue. Well, I've no idea if that's really correct or not, or how to run company for that matter, but yeah, sometimes I wish I got more of good,m tasty, dependable bread instead of all the cake, does make me fill a wee bit ill sometimes ,

  6. #6
    Community Member Alrik_Fassbauer's Avatar
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    The MMO business model has imho one fatal flaw :

    One has only so much time.

    To spend for playing.


    Another point is that MMOs are basically "work in progress", and that unlimited. Meaning : With no real end.

    Therefore, never fixed - because sooooo much more unimportant - bugs and glitches just stack. Over time. Until a new engine must be written.
    Last edited by Alrik_Fassbauer; 12-04-2012 at 09:46 AM.
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  7. #7
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    Turbine does want us to eat cake, and lots of it.

    Siberys Spirit Cake, to be precise.

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  9. #9
    Community Member Drelak's Avatar
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    I agree.

    I hate to be "a consumer", but would like to support my local "society" and its well being, whenever I have the money. And it will be years before I have a toon ready for the endgame.

  10. #10
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeichen-thest View Post
    Stone of Change: the graphic and animations are so slow that After I crunched one stack of syberies dragonshards, I stopped and won't do it again. Things should be as fast as a click. The cool downs are way too slow.
    Realize that you're talking about an MMO that is now seven years old. I'm not excusing Turbine but I believe the two main reasons are lack of experience and the code base for the crafting system is simply unable to handle it. The simple fact is most MMOs that have crafting implemented badly do so either because it seems to be a requirement (I've seen some players ask about crafting before gameplay info) or are simply F2P trash (think Asian-based MMOs in general).

    I've seen two MMOs that have done this right. Guild Wars 2 has a system where it starts out at 2 seconds for the first job and gets progressively faster until around the 10th and later queued jobs are running at 0.1 seconds per job. Rift, on the other hand, simply has batch jobs (like smelting 20 ingots at once).

    Quote Originally Posted by zeichen-thest View Post
    I know that they are probably working on the collision coding issue but being teleported from inside a raid to korthos is rather frustrating.
    I've not heard of this one. But I have heard of falling to your death while standing on solid ground, and getting stuck under the map or in walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by zeichen-thest View Post
    Some quests still have spelling mistakes and have had them for years. That is the gross oversight of simple things that can be easily addressed but aren't.
    So you've never misspelled something while being in a hurry? Not that I'm claiming these shouldn't eventually be fixed, but they should have the absolute lowest priority.
    Last edited by Ryiah; 12-05-2012 at 10:36 AM.
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  11. #11
    Community Member Silverwren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VveX View Post
    I agree with pretty much everything said here.

    Speaking from semi-casual player's point of view, I would say the game has more than enough content as is.

    The way DDO works, with TR'ing and very high (as far as MMOs go) content replayability, even if they stopped adding new things for a year or more I'd still would not be able to catch up with all the stuff I want to do, nor would I run out of things to do in game. I mean there's still classes I haven't tried playing, build ideas that will likely just remain only ideas, etc.

    And if they actually (gasp) took that time to iron out all the bugs, issues and inconviniences, that would be a major turn-on for me. Smooth game experience is largely what keeps me playing (and paying).

    Inevitably, though, there's someone "up there" at every MMO company, who keeps looking at revenue figures, and keeps pushing for new content to be added, as in their mind, new content = revenue. Well, I've no idea if that's really correct or not, or how to run company for that matter, but yeah, sometimes I wish I got more of good,m tasty, dependable bread instead of all the cake, does make me fill a wee bit ill sometimes ,
    This!

    Please, Turbine, if you're even listening. Stop developing new content and fix stuff. I promise, most of us will still play the game.

    That is all.
    I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just gonna ask 'em where they're going and hook up with 'em later on - Mitch Hedberg
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  12. #12
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Default citizenship

    Impossible the way most people think. A MMO can never be a citizenship, it will always be a collection of individuals pushing in a hundred different directions. Thus it is impossible to implement anything involving a large group of people that will be fun or sensible in the medium or longer run. Someone will always have reason to complain, and will get others to go along with his demands.

  13. #13
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    "So you've never misspelled something while being in a hurry? Not that I'm claiming these shouldn't eventually be fixed, but they should have the absolute lowest priority."

    Yes, I make mistakes with spelling and grammar from time to time like all people. However, when I publish my work, it is carefully inspected. When I am doing things for profit, I make sure that everything is as close to perfect as I can get. Only MMO's publish/push their unfinished products on the gamers. A professionally run company would fix those obvious mistakes quickly. Its like a meal; no matter how good it tastes if it isn't presented carefully, people aren't as excited to eat it or keep eating it.

    For me it is the minor details that deserve as much attention as major things.

    Bartharok:
    "Impossible the way most people think. A MMO can never be a citizenship, it will always be a collection of individuals pushing in a hundred different directions. Thus it is impossible to implement anything involving a large group of people that will be fun or sensible in the medium or longer run. Someone will always have reason to complain, and will get others to go along with his demands. "

    Aren't you required to study civics? What do you think a society is, some harmonious blend of all like people working together for a common goal. Heck not even a good marriage is that ideal. Societies and polititcs are messy because every single person has different expectations and goals. Common ground is met when it can or separate systems for areas that cannot be accomodated for all.

    Don't think that this is a complaint. I love playing this game. I just think that some perspective needs to reach the parent companies and CEO's of MMO's.

    Governments that are run from business minded people actually turn out to be more dictatorial than democratic. No matter how good intentioned they are a president isn't a CEO. If the business model for MMo's shifted slightly it might breathe more life into the industry. Gamers are always looking for the next wow (exciting thing not WOW).

  14. #14
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    Red face

    So I know a lot of my posts have the devs pegged as total idiots who eat big plates of stupid for breakfast, lunch, dinner, and the few snacks in between- however, this thread is a good time for me to put some of that aside and say: this is a d*** good game. I DON'T want this game to ever go away, I could play this single MMO for the forseeable future if they kept up with it. However, THAT being said, i think this says it best:

    Quote Originally Posted by blerkington View Post

    I think those of us who are concerned about these things will have our moment of truth after the quality of life updates. DDO is generally a great game which is rapidly falling to pieces. It would be really nice to see that trend reversed.

    Thanks.
    The game really is good, but you are botching some major things, and that is jeopardizing your CITIZENS (who, i can attest, are some of your best- highest paying and most loyal- customers).

    Also, I cannot DISAGREE with this more, but i agree with the thought behind it:

    Quote Originally Posted by VveX View Post

    Speaking from semi-casual player's point of view, I would say the game has more than enough content as is.
    Speaking from a hardcore players point of view, who plays less than i'd like nowadays (avg 30-40 hrs on good weeks, been up to 75, down to 18ish now), that is WRONG. DDO HAD a good endgame before the cap increase- but now that the cap HAS been increased, 99% of the old gear, yes epic gear too, is not even worth the bank slot to hold it, let alone an inventory or equip slot. SO, there is ONE raid now (compared to the...8?) we had, and 3 packs compared to the (9?11? Somewhere in there) we had- that is NOT enough content to keep us entertained at end game- that end game needs to be beefed way up again (and we know you will want to raise the level cap again, and we would [depending on how you did it] love it, but make the end game, debug the end game, THEN release the endgame with the level bump!!) That being said, the bugs are killing us, literally and figuratively, and the way XP is set up is as well (just figuratively), and both of those NEED to be addressed soon. I'll wait for bug fixes, but they need to be soon (end of December), and more content needs to be as well! (talking end of January for content). Ambitious, maybe even bump those back a month max- but thats what will keep myself, and a number of my good friends in the game, playing, and paying.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Turbine does want us to eat cake, and lots of it.

    Siberys Spirit Cake, to be precise.
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