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  1. #1
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    Default Fleshy Sorcs and AM healing

    Just a quick question.

    Im talking general questing and not Raids btw

    As a Cleric am I "expected" to heal fleshy AMs and Sorcs that should be at a level where they can scroll heal?

    I ask as recently seen a few Fleshy Sorcs struggling to keep themselves up after biting off more aggro than they can handle.

    Im usually busy up front with the hitters with my Aura up and using bursts for healing when this happens and invariably the Sorc is out of range or around a corner so I waste a heal on them


    I normally try to keep every party member healed, but sometimes those Fleshies just dont play smart and require constant attention away from the core healing - as someone on the forum once said "you spank it, you tank it"


    Should I go out of my way to heal Fleshie Sorcs and AMs or do I let the Darwinian process take its course?


    I think I didnt sleep well as Im feeling grumpy this morning.
    Last edited by Ryan220; 11-30-2012 at 06:45 AM.

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    I would heal whoever needs to.

    Concerning Agro, it can be a mistake, a bad luck or just stupid. I will of course help in the 2 first cases and help in the third only if the rest of the group will not suffer of it.

    If agro is not managed at all over time by a gimped nuker or an unbrained magic user (!), then i'll consider a visit in the form of stone in my bag until the next shrine is in sight.

    That's it

  3. #3
    Community Member Brennie's Avatar
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    I see now reason why a fleshy caster woudl be any different than a fleshy paladin or rogue. Both of these classes have some self healing via abilities and UMD, but I don't know any cleric who'd hesitate to throw healing their way when they atake damage.

    A fleshy sorc may have good enough UMD to scroll heal. Or maybe not. A fleshy Wizard doesn't even have the charisma to back up UMD, so I have no idea why you'd expect them to be more self sufficient than your typical fighter.

    If you are having issues with a player's playstyle, regardless of class, let them know before you decide to start pulling the plug on heals. Believe me when i say nonverbal communication is usually not as obvious as people think it will be. Letting someone die doesn't automatically make them think "Well gee, obviously the Cleric thinks I could let the Stalwart Defender be the first to take aggro". They could easily decide you had a lapse in concentration, that enemies were uncharacteristically tough, or that you just stink at healing.

    My policy for healing on my FvS is - All fleshies get heals. Even other healy types who let their redbars sit low a little too long, or that drop a little too fast. Of course, any character who is self sufficient is expected to take care of themselves when not in a lifethreatening situation, though I will help out with whatever healing i have that is either free or ridiculously cheap (Capstone heal/renew/whathaveyou). Constructoids get heals if they are not of a class that can reconstruct (though i will have some dialogue with them if they are difficult to heal overall). Undeads never get heals. Forget those guys.
    Last edited by Brennie; 11-30-2012 at 06:41 AM.

  4. #4
    Community Member Dhalgren's Avatar
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    I'm with Brennie--when I'm healing, I try to keep everyone up who isn't either undead or apparently actively trying to avoid getting healed.

    If they're in the next room, well--no heals. Around a corner--maybe, if I can make the corner safely without letting myself or the rest of the party die. Etc.

    Then again, I'm pretty much of the "if I die, I screwed up somewhere" school of thought. Either I bit off more than I could chew, or I got too far from the healer, or whatever. I don't have a lot of patience for people who try to blame their failures on others. If someone is playing a character with little or no self-healing, fine, just so long as they do their part to make sure that they're reasonably healable and don't expect me to perform miracles to do it.
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    I don't know why you think the average wizard would be able to scroll heal. My 18 wizard has put his point into UMD every level. His total skill, with cha mod? 12. Something like a 15% chance to even use a cure serious wand. It takes serious UMD gearing for a wizard to scroll heal, and would require swapping multiple pieces of gear around during an emergency to try to heal themselves.
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    While my sorc carries umd to scroll heal hersef, I know a lot who need the points for other things like balance. I has none, and fall down a lot. But I can heal myself. Not everyone makes the same skill choices. And what is 'common sense' for one person is a trash build choice to the next.
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    Community Member Sarzor's Avatar
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    While playing my healer, I rarely ever heal a wizard, because they really should be able to heal themselves. I just assume, sometimes incorrectly, the wizard is either WF and can repair themselves, or is fleshy and a PM, and should still be able to heal themselves.

    As far as sorcerers, fleshy sorcs with no ability to heal themselves can drive me crazy. If they play carefully, I don't mind healing them, but so often they take the 'glass cannon' approach, which means I am just healing them insane amounts since they can't seem to avoid any aggro/damage.

    That being said, I kinda don't like healing, since I'm, so accustomed to being self-sufficient, I kinda forget to look at other players' HP.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenlaar View Post
    I don't know why you think the average wizard would be able to scroll heal. My 18 wizard has put his point into UMD every level. His total skill, with cha mod? 12. Something like a 15% chance to even use a cure serious wand. It takes serious UMD gearing for a wizard to scroll heal, and would require swapping multiple pieces of gear around during an emergency to try to heal themselves.

    I assumed an average Wizzy would be a PM, but I see a few who arent.

    I thought it safe to assume that they would be self suff seeing as they did not take the PM route.

    I dont know if a Wiz can scroll heal - Ive never gone that path. I assumed anyone who doesnt go PM has some other form of healing, especially if they want to go running around kiting things making healing them a pita
    Last edited by Ryan220; 11-30-2012 at 01:59 PM.

  9. #9
    Community Member squishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan220 View Post
    Just a quick question.

    Im talking general questing and not Raids btw

    As a Cleric am I "expected" to heal fleshy AMs and Sorcs that should be at a level where they can scroll heal?

    I ask as recently seen a few Fleshy Sorcs struggling to keep themselves up after biting off more aggro than they can handle.

    Im usually busy up front with the hitters with my Aura up and using bursts for healing when this happens and invariably the Sorc is out of range or around a corner so I waste a heal on them


    I normally try to keep every party member healed, but sometimes those Fleshies just dont play smart and require constant attention away from the core healing - as someone on the forum once said "you spank it, you tank it"


    Should I go out of my way to heal Fleshie Sorcs and AMs or do I let the Darwinian process take its course?


    I think I didnt sleep well as Im feeling grumpy this morning.
    The first thing you have to consider is that at about half of the AM community is going to be a fleshy toon. Not everyone in DDO reads the forums, or is going to want to pay out the coin for WF. So, a fleshy AM is a reality you're just going to have to live with. The next thing you're going to have to consider is that many (again, maybe about half) of the AMs you're going to run with arwe going to be first-lifers. You can pretty-much forget UMD being a really viable option for a first-lifer, and they are still learning the skills they need to be effective.

    I've got about three fleshy AMs. I get healing occasionally, but I don't wholly rely upon it. I always carry pots. That being said, I appreciate heals when I can get them.

    I could go through a long list of different scenarios where I expect some healing, and where I don't. Suffice to say, my expectations for healing is rather situational. In a boss fight with the boss penned in by the melees, I don't expect a lot of heals (they're nice, but I just use tactics to avoid the boss targeting me). In an all-out chaotic melee where I have to drop a lot of CC and AoEs, and even NEED to get hit to regen my SP, I need healing. Even as a WF AM, reconstructs can actually be counterproductive in some situations.

    As for a Sorc, while being CHR-heavy, they have a good chance at a high UMD. However, as for "you spank it, you tank it," rule that not always hard-and-fast. Your average Sorc's job is to spank as much stuff as they can, really, really hard. You may drop 5 mobs to about 50% of their HP in one cast, but that it no guarantee that you'll get another bite of that apple. For the most - again, talking about your average Sorc - they are not going to be focused on CC, breaking spell pen, and instakills. They nuke. Theirs is a highly offense-oriented role. They are going to grab aggro, and quickly. I think it would be wiser to keep him afloat with as much offensive capability as he or she has to wipe out the opposition in two or three spells, then let them handle their own heals.

    In the end, a PuG is a team. If your Sorc is making a lot of kills (and you actually need to make kills), don't leave them hanging out to dry. If the wizzy is holding a majority of the mobs in pace while the melees wipe them out, or dropping Wail of the Banshee effectively, they're doing their job. Don't penalize them for that.

    If they are constantly running out front and getting their a** handed to them virtually every single time - its a big indicator that they're an idiot. Pure arcanes are generally in the rear. Distance is their friend.

    Now, you can either let them learn the hard way, or offer helpful suggestions after maybe their first or second maulings. I advise you do that because giving advice up front to a guy who knows that they are doing is a little annoying. To someone who doesn't know what they are doing...well...having the advice sink is is a dodgey proposition. Maybe they are willing to learn right away, maybe they aren't. The more effective way of offering advice is AFTER they've gotten spanked once or twice.

    And if they are bull-headed, and don't want to listen, well, consider them well-dressed meat byproducts.

    You can usually tell the good one from the bad when they drop blur or stonekin on themselves at the beginning of a quest - a lot of this depends on what level range you're running. Mainly because Damage Reduction and hit-avoidence doesn't suck in general. I can see not dropping blur of displacement if you're looking to get hit with a Torc or Con Opp item. That aside, anything else is just painting a target on their forehead.

    Another hint is of they are hanging out in your aura. Or, if they grab aggro, and immediately run into the CC.

    Lastly, as I;ve pointed out from time-to-time, many of the touted self-healing options people present in these forums are off the table in many situations. Silver Flame pots are generally not available to anyone who is a first-lifer, lvl 16 and below. UMD is not practical for many first-lifers as well. Not every one has the WF race, or wants to be a WF AM. Not every one wants to be a fleshy PM. I've also pointed out that reconstruct is not a sure-fire strategy for every situation. So, using self-healing as an excuse for not healing anyone is frankly just a cop-out.

    So yeah, you should probably heal them. They may not be your prime focus at times, but you should at least make an attempt to keep them up, especially if they are carrying their weight in the party.

    Make a few suggestions if they look like they are stuggling.

    And if all else fails, and they are dead-set on being an idiot, refet to my "well-dressed meat by-product" explanation.
    Last edited by squishwizzy; 11-30-2012 at 02:33 PM.
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  10. #10
    Community Member arminius's Avatar
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    IMO, one does what it takes to accomplish the mission. If that includes healing your #1 enemy killer, that doesn't seem like too much of an overwhelming burden to me.

    One might as well say, should I as a caster put up an Ice Storm/Acid Rain barrier in front of that cleric who is about to get trashed by a dozen mobs? After all, the cleric should have Blade Barrier and Cometfall. Meh, let him fend for himself.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan220 View Post
    As a Cleric am I "expected" to heal fleshy AMs and Sorcs that should be at a level where they can scroll heal?

    I ask as recently seen a few Fleshy Sorcs struggling to keep themselves up after biting off more aggro than they can handle.
    Well, Scrolls cannot be quickened so (depending on the content) they might be struggling to scroll heal due to the limitation of having to pass a concentration check.

    To me it sort of depends, the amount of 'helping' them I'll be doing is usually directly relative to how much they try help themselves; meaning if they make an effort to keep themselves alive when they break away from the group (whether scroll healing or having gone through the effort of getting some healing twists) I'll be likely to go out of my way to throw them a heal if/when/as necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brennie View Post
    I see now reason why a fleshy caster woudl be any different than a fleshy paladin or rogue.
    It's different because most rogues are usually expected to stand at the back of the mobs the group is beating on and paladins frequently are expected to stand in front of them - either way they will be with the group and thus in range for auras, bursts and masses. Sorcerers and Wizards often don't want to stand anywhere near the front lines for some reason, if they then rely on a cleric/fvs for healing it requires a far greater amount of baby sitting. Also, using individual heals for a single toon (in addition to masses for the rest of the group) is more costly.

    So, at the end of the day, they are not with the group and require healing from outside sources, it requires special attention and special treatment from the player of the divine caster. It's why I don't think there is a simple answer to the question but it depends on other variables, such as how much does the caster contribute (ie: does the fleshy AM lock down mobs with some serious crowd control? Does the Sorcerer pull his/her weight in terms of dishing out punishment? Do they make any effort to keep themselves alive as much as possible?)
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  12. #12
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    I'm still new, and my highest character is my 14/2 first life human "Pale trapper", so take what I say with that in mind.

    Why would things like this not be worked out in advance of the quest in question? Do groups talk to each other, or is it just assumed that everyone knows exactly what is going to happen? Something that has not been mentioned yet is that most first-lifers are probably also used to having a cleric hireling with them. Did you let them bring their hireling with them this time, or could the hireling not "fit" into the group? If they don't have that hireling, then they are probably expecting the cleric in the group to heal them. I'm not saying this is fair, I'm just saying it is probably what a newer player is expecting. Whether it's fair or not, the hireling system, and other MMOs before this one, have given the whole world this notion that "the clerics are there to heal". I'm guessing that you knew this even when you decided to create a cleric. To me it still seems that healing, (and maybe destroying undead?), is what clerics do best. Do Clerics think that they are being invited into groups for DPS or tanking or traps? Again, maybe clerics can do this too, but surely not as well as other classes.

    Regarding wizards and sorcerers, if they are not warforged, and not in undead form, why would you assume that they put gobs of skill points into UMD? Do you assume this for Rogues, Rangers, Barbarians and Fighters also? For a first lifer those scrolls cost money also, which may be hard to come by if they don't understand all the intricacies of making money in the game yet. Again, I'm not sure why this is not all established at the start of the quest anyway.

    Having said all of that (which may sound like I'm being hard only on the Cleric), the Sorcerer in question does need to explain their actions if this keeps happening, to make sure that they understand things like "aggro", and where they need to be standing, and when the best times to cast those super damaging spells are. And if they don't learn, then they need to be booted and ignored just as you would anyone else who is not a "team player".

    And on a side note, if there's no possible way (according to others in this thread) for me to get any use out of UMD on my wizard on my first life, then I need to do another LR and put all those points somewhere else

  13. #13

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    On my cleric I mostly ignore arcanes and divines, and put pallies and rangers at the end of the priority list for heals. I will try to toss a heal/harm to an arcane whose bar is at 50% or less and has been for several seconds, but if this happens multiple times in a quest I generally write that arcane off as unreliable.

    In raids where I have to mass heal the melees, the arcanes are fully on their own and I expect them not to die. If they die, yeah, I'll probably remember their name.

    Last hard shroud I solo-healed the fleshie sorc and AM wizard both died maybe a quarter of the way through the first round in part 4. Incredibly annoying, and a significant disservice to the group.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by stefferweffer View Post
    Something that has not been mentioned yet is that most first-lifers are probably also used to having a cleric hireling with them. Did you let them bring their hireling with them this time, or could the hireling not "fit" into the group? If they don't have that hireling, then they are probably expecting the cleric in the group to heal them.
    Arcanes are expected to be self-sufficient, just like melee FVS are expected to be self-sufficient.

    Regarding wizards and sorcerers, if they are not warforged, and not in undead form, why would you assume that they put gobs of skill points into UMD? Do you assume this for Rogues, Rangers, Barbarians and Fighters also?
    Because those are the three choices for an arcane: 1) Be warforged, 2) Be a Pale Master, or 3) Invest in umd because one way or another, arcanes are expected to heal themselves.

    (I had a guildie once do a half-elf 17/3 archmage/artificer who took that construct essence artie thing that give 50% repair healing to fleshies, meaning he could self-heal with reconstruct. I forget what his dilletante was, but he also had 3 cleric past lives and focused on acid. That alt was unusal but quite effective.)

    New players may not be aware of this and end up going with a drow arch-mage because the drow gets extra int. They'll soon face the same scenario that a new player who rolled up a drow barbarian who dumped con faces: some combinations don't work in DDO, especially (or possibly only) for new players.

    And on a side note, if there's no possible way (according to others in this thread) for me to get any use out of UMD on my wizard on my first life, then I need to do another LR and put all those points somewhere else
    They're talking about pure wizards. Your rogue splash gives you +12 umd compared to a pure wizard, so umd won't be a problem for you.

    However, as a pale master you're fully self-sufficient right out of the gate. The primary value you'll get from UMD is raise dead scrolls, plus maybe using heal scrolls on other party members. Scroll-healing other party members isn't a very good use of a pale master, but occasionally it can help prevent a wipe.

  15. #15
    Community Member squishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefferweffer View Post
    And on a side note, if there's no possible way (according to others in this thread) for me to get any use out of UMD on my wizard on my first life, then I need to do another LR and put all those points somewhere else
    By and large, I try to put them in Balance, Sneak, Hide, and Jump.

    It sounds dumb, but for first-life, 28-pt builds UMD is going to be kinda out of reach, at least for a pure build. Balance keeps you on your feet and casting, jump allows you to get to high ground and somtimes makes you unreacable, hide and sneak have solo-friendly uses.

    You could put them into Diplo, which also helps damage mitigation.

    My first toon I didn't go the UMD route, so I LR-ed. However, given my playstyle, and the need to certain abilities in combat, what was left for UMD was not enough to make it useable.

    I'm sure that if you *really* want a decent UMD for your toon, you could put points into it, and basically ignore all others (with the exception of concentration). However, I don't think scroll healing works so well when you're flat on your back (Balance) for a half an hour...
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefferweffer View Post
    I'm still new, and my highest character is my 14/2 first life human "Pale trapper", so take what I say with that in mind.

    Why would things like this not be worked out in advance of the quest in question? Do groups talk to each other, or is it just assumed that everyone knows exactly what is going to happen? Something that has not been mentioned yet is that most first-lifers are probably also used to having a cleric hireling with them. Did you let them bring their hireling with them this time, or could the hireling not "fit" into the group? If they don't have that hireling, then they are probably expecting the cleric in the group to heal them. I'm not saying this is fair, I'm just saying it is probably what a newer player is expecting. Whether it's fair or not, the hireling system, and other MMOs before this one, have given the whole world this notion that "the clerics are there to heal". I'm guessing that you knew this even when you decided to create a cleric. To me it still seems that healing, (and maybe destroying undead?), is what clerics do best. Do Clerics think that they are being invited into groups for DPS or tanking or traps? Again, maybe clerics can do this too, but surely not as well as other classes.

    Regarding wizards and sorcerers, if they are not warforged, and not in undead form, why would you assume that they put gobs of skill points into UMD? Do you assume this for Rogues, Rangers, Barbarians and Fighters also? For a first lifer those scrolls cost money also, which may be hard to come by if they don't understand all the intricacies of making money in the game yet. Again, I'm not sure why this is not all established at the start of the quest anyway.

    Having said all of that (which may sound like I'm being hard only on the Cleric), the Sorcerer in question does need to explain their actions if this keeps happening, to make sure that they understand things like "aggro", and where they need to be standing, and when the best times to cast those super damaging spells are. And if they don't learn, then they need to be booted and ignored just as you would anyone else who is not a "team player".

    And on a side note, if there's no possible way (according to others in this thread) for me to get any use out of UMD on my wizard on my first life, then I need to do another LR and put all those points somewhere else
    You have rogue levels so you have a much better chance of useful umd than a pure wizard who can only put half ranks into the umd skill each level. In fact, you should have basically the same umd ability as a rogue.

  18. #18
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    First lets put aside the "Fleshie" criteria and if they are a "Big" contributor to the party's success, and talk about Expectations that one has when they join a group and have the capability of healing other party members (this is not limited to classes seen as primary healers, but is open to just about anyone that has access to some form of healing be it an innate ability or through UMD, also includes Arcane casters with repair/recon on WF party members scrolls/wands are still available to assist).
    Expectations
    1. If one can reasonably heal another to prevent them from dying, then one should
    2. If one can reasonably save another - grab aggro, trip, stun etc. to prevent them from dying, then one should
    3. All party members are working for the completion of the quest and taking reasonable risk in accomplishing that goal


    Personally I don't excuse any party member from being able to assist another when they are in trouble, even if the help is simply removing the aggro from the one in trouble. The only time anyone is absolved from someone else's death is when it was just plain stupid and there was absolutely nothing anyone could have done to prevent it.

    As a one in a primary healing role you actually have an advantage, you are paying more attention in some cases to other party members health, which means you can actually tell the party "Wizard needs help" or "You Barbarian help the wizard, and let the Tank hold the primary aggro". Try it, you may be surprised just how quickly people will come to each others aid if you call out. Sometimes you just have to assume they have their hands to tied up in the pickle to communicate they are going down.

  19. #19
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    Jeebus, you have 7 gazillion skill points on wizzy, balance , concentration and that's it. What else you gonna use ?

    What about a pure palemaster scroll hjealing fleshies ? IMPOSSIBRU

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  20. #20
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    This:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan220 View Post
    As a Cleric am I "expected" to heal fleshy AMs and Sorcs that should be at a level where they can scroll heal?
    Followed by this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan220 View Post
    I dont know if a Wiz can scroll heal - Ive never gone that path.
    Is part of the problem here. You have previously decided that wizards should be scroll healing while not knowing if they even can. There is only one way that the majority of "fleshy AMs" can heal themselves - cure pots for 20 something HP each.

    If you are playing a healing role and somebody is just playing badly and being an unnecessary drain on resources nobody is going to say you should keep going out of your way to healbot them. But if you have, say, a CC focused fleshy AM who is doing his job, you want to keep them alive. If I lock down seven of the eight mobs that come at us, and one saves and gets a couple of hits on me before it gets CC'd as well, you better believe I expect you to heal me. Tossing one lesser heal on me is a small price to pay for not having to heal anybody else for that fight.

    And yes, I do play a healer as well. The arcanes who are constantly pulling agro by just nuking right out of the gate before a melee can even engage, or over nuking groups, better make it easy for me to heal them with my aura or it probably won't be a very pleasant run for them.

    I never have and doubt I ever will understand the mentality that people in my group need to play like six people who happen to be soloing the same quest. If people are contributing, you contribute. If you choose to take on the role of healer for a group, that means healing whoever needs it.
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