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  1. #1
    Community Member scoobmx's Avatar
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    Default A weapons analysis tool

    (This is an incomplete, preview version)

    Weapons Damage Modeler
    Scoob : Imperial Assassins and Advanced Progressive Society : Argonnessen
    Vien : Imperial Assassins and Advanced Progressive Society : Argonnessen

    Newest Version
    0.3.0 Preview 3 (Public Preview 2)
    Requires .NET Framework 4 or .NET Client Profile 4
    0.3.0 Preview 3 Mac Version
    Requires Mono 2.10.9 or higher runtime (from terminal: mono macWDM.exe)

    What is WDM
    WDM is a weapons damage calculator. As many are aware there is another program with a similar purpose. How is this one different? WDM gives more detailed information such as the standard deviation of damage, the attack speed profiles as worked out by Vanshilar, the Glancing Blow and Offhand Attack mechanisms, and active abilities such as Cleave, Momentum Swing, and so on. However, at this time, no monster defenses such as fortification, DR, and resistances are included.

    Usage Notes

    1. Preview Version
    Because this is a preview version, it is entirely possible to crash the program or generate exceptions by using strange inputs, such as text where numbers are supposed to go, or negative numbers where positive numbers are supposed to be. Please do not report these bugs to me at this time.

    2. The Graph
    The red bars in the graph represent mean damage for the corresponding attack roll, and the blue bars represent standard deviation for that attack roll. Though the damage distribution is non-symmetric, a standard deviation is still defined. The graph does not reflect anything that requires a second attack to be rolled (except for crits which are auto-confirmed in this program). This includes doublestrike, offhand attacks, glancing blows, and all active abilities.

    3. The Numbers
    The numbers below the graph, in contrast, do incorporate doublestrike, offhand attacks, and glancing blows. Active abilities only affect the DPS number. The Mean represents the total average damage per swing of the weapon, and the StDev represents the total damage standard deviation per swing of the weapon.

    4. Using Properties
    A preset list of properties is given in the bottom left. It is recommended to create weapons as their absolute base form, neglecting all buffs, feats, and whatever. Then add the buffs and other effects using the preset list. This is a list of different effect behaviors. Almost all effects in the list can be customized with different parameters and names. No 2 properties can have the same name on a weapon (notice the newer one replaces the older) so just rename them if you have to use more than one with a given behavior. For example, choosing 'Alignment', changing the N value to 3, and optionally the name to 'Supreme Good' gets you something that will be distinct from a Greater Good or Holy already on the weapon, and both will stay.

    5. Attack Styles
    You could choose the same weapon as the offhand / glancing blow damage model to get an OK approximation, but to be accurate, you should duplicate and modify the weapon appropriately. For offhands, it is known that the strength bonus is half of the main hand, and that doublestrike doesn't proc on offhands. For glancing blows, the program is generally pretty good about picking out what effects to not proc. As a general rule, the program procs anything that would proc on an attack roll of 2, except the base damage (and base damage bonuses) is scaled down appropriately. This means that stuff like sneak attack and doublestrike must be manually taken out of the glancing blow weapon.
    Last edited by scoobmx; 02-19-2013 at 03:25 PM.
    Scoobmx Scoobshot Arcscoob Beefscoob : Imperial Assassins : Argonnessen
    My Builds : Abbot Raid Manual : Weapon Damage Modeler : My Trades

  2. #2
    Community Member scoobmx's Avatar
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    Questions

    Q. What about ranged combat with 10k stars / Manyshot?
    A. The attack speeds and 10k stars algorithm haven't been worked out rigorously enough.

    Q. What about monster DR / Fortification / Resistances?
    A. This will be implemented in the near future.

    Q. How do I delete a weapon from the list?
    A. Select the weapon and hit backspace on your keyboard.

    Q. Why can't I change a weapon's base damage or crit profile?
    A. Sorry you cannot change a weapon's base profile at this time.
    Last edited by scoobmx; 02-18-2013 at 05:35 PM.
    Scoobmx Scoobshot Arcscoob Beefscoob : Imperial Assassins : Argonnessen
    My Builds : Abbot Raid Manual : Weapon Damage Modeler : My Trades

  3. #3
    Community Member scoobmx's Avatar
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    Updated:
    It is now possible to save and load damage models so that you can return to a previous analysis, or share it with other people.
    It is now possible to delete damage models from the list by pressing backspace. There is no confirmation pop-up.
    Scoobmx Scoobshot Arcscoob Beefscoob : Imperial Assassins : Argonnessen
    My Builds : Abbot Raid Manual : Weapon Damage Modeler : My Trades

  4. #4
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    This looks interesting and very flexible. I'm not sure if you want any feedback yet or any feedback from a casual player who sometimes looks at the combat log just to see what got me killed.

    Even though you've already answered some questions -- in the far, far, far future:
    1. Can you show the whole formula as text? e.g. the saved data can be text for easier sharing using cut/paste.

    2. Is it possible to add property tabs for buffs and feats so they are separated from the weapon properties? eg. Load weapons separate from character buffs & feats.

    3. Is it possible to have separate tabs for character stats, enhancements, and abilities? e.g. be able to import a generated character with hot bars for rage, frenzy, divine might, special attacks, boosts, etc.

    4. Is it possible to run the actual dice rolls against the monsters? Hehe if we get this far, you can call it the Weapon Monster Damage Model (WMDM).

    5. Is it possible to manually run the actual attack styles using mouse clicks and dice rolls too?

    The numbers from the attack styles seem confusing. How does it actually uses Vanshilar's formulas which were collected awhile ago on the test server in a tavern? There were some good confirmations from MrCow, but he pulled his numbers from a magic hat. Are there still fast and slow weapons?

    It seems like a daunting task for whoever is trying to work out the animations for ranged combat, cleaves, special attacks...slightly related issue in actual dungeons occasionally I would see the animations without any corresponding attack rolls. Is it REALLY reliable to match the corresponding animation to the attack speed in all cases? Or is it just my lag or likely desync from server cool downs?

    It would be really cool if this can be combined with the character generator to try what-ifs like take a build, start off with debuff weapons, switches to another weapon set, click divine might, click attack, etc...then I can just run your tool, select a build, pick the weapons, pick monsters, and play WMDM instead of DDO. Of course now and then, I'll just log on to check how well the game models the WMDM.

  5. #5
    Community Member scoobmx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faxe View Post
    This looks interesting and very flexible. I'm not sure if you want any feedback yet or any feedback from a casual player who sometimes looks at the combat log just to see what got me killed.

    Even though you've already answered some questions -- in the far, far, far future:
    1. Can you show the whole formula as text? e.g. the saved data can be text for easier sharing using cut/paste.

    2. Is it possible to add property tabs for buffs and feats so they are separated from the weapon properties? eg. Load weapons separate from character buffs & feats.

    3. Is it possible to have separate tabs for character stats, enhancements, and abilities? e.g. be able to import a generated character with hot bars for rage, frenzy, divine might, special attacks, boosts, etc.

    4. Is it possible to run the actual dice rolls against the monsters? Hehe if we get this far, you can call it the Weapon Monster Damage Model (WMDM).

    5. Is it possible to manually run the actual attack styles using mouse clicks and dice rolls too?

    The numbers from the attack styles seem confusing. How does it actually uses Vanshilar's formulas which were collected awhile ago on the test server in a tavern? There were some good confirmations from MrCow, but he pulled his numbers from a magic hat. Are there still fast and slow weapons?

    It seems like a daunting task for whoever is trying to work out the animations for ranged combat, cleaves, special attacks...slightly related issue in actual dungeons occasionally I would see the animations without any corresponding attack rolls. Is it REALLY reliable to match the corresponding animation to the attack speed in all cases? Or is it just my lag or likely desync from server cool downs?

    It would be really cool if this can be combined with the character generator to try what-ifs like take a build, start off with debuff weapons, switches to another weapon set, click divine might, click attack, etc...then I can just run your tool, select a build, pick the weapons, pick monsters, and play WMDM instead of DDO. Of course now and then, I'll just log on to check how well the game models the WMDM.
    Hi,

    Sure, any feedback is welcomed.

    1. Which formulas do you mean? The data saved in text files are just your list of weapons and what you changed / added to them. Because of the way they are stored, there are challenges to making them human-readable (XML format). It is possible, but may not be worthwhile putting effort into.

    2. We may look into this. Right now we're not sure if this is a good idea or not. The alternative is to just keep saving it and changing it as needed as you progress with your character.

    3. No. The design of the program is so that it doesn't distinguish between all of these things, as that would overcomplicate the interface. It only distinguishes between ways that stuff changes your damage.

    4. I'm not sure if this is suggesting running Armor Class rolls. No, you are assumed to land your hits on a roll of 2.

    5. No. We believe you get the same information less efficiently that way.

    6. I will check it again but I believe Vanshilar's attack speed data still applies today.

    7. It's outside the scope of this program. This isn't a simulator but a tool that can provide fairly accurate information so that attacks can be compared in more realistic scenarios than before.

    Thanks,
    Scoob
    Scoobmx Scoobshot Arcscoob Beefscoob : Imperial Assassins : Argonnessen
    My Builds : Abbot Raid Manual : Weapon Damage Modeler : My Trades

  6. #6
    Community Member Tiamas's Avatar
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    +1 for the nice work. Funny thing is I am working on a pretty similar tool myself
    Bruyak ~ Razahe ~ Duzzared ~ Marwachine ~ Hukwaller
    Mitis Mors|Thelanis

  7. #7
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    A little more feedback...

    When creating weapons, the R value is a little puzzling. Wouldn't it be easier to use a familiar value like 18 for the starting crit range? Then if needed you can calculate the R value from that.

    Once a property is added, the values for the property are no longer viewable/editable. I know we can just remove and add the property again, but it would be nice to at least review the property. Unless we keep good records, it's hard to tell which weapons we just loaded. I tried to look at the saved txt files. It's not really in a text/xml format that can be viewed/cut/pasted. Maybe just add the text values somewhere whenever a new property is added?

    I still can't get used to selecting an attack style in one tab and having it jump to another tab to set it. Both could be in one tab to be more intuitive.

    Is it possible to set a color for some properties in the chart? It'd be nice to visualize base damage in blue, strength bonus in yellow here, overwhelming crit in red there, etc...

    I know it assumed to hit on a 2, but is it easy to change to another value other than the default 2? my melees are super gimped even with the new easy tohit system lol


    I was hoping the tool can quickly tell the difference between a +1 holy burst, icy burst of greater bane vs +4 holy bane if I hit on a 3, 4, or 5 when you implement the monster stuffs in the future.

  8. #8
    Community Member scoobmx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faxe View Post
    A little more feedback...

    When creating weapons, the R value is a little puzzling. Wouldn't it be easier to use a familiar value like 18 for the starting crit range? Then if needed you can calculate the R value from that.

    Once a property is added, the values for the property are no longer viewable/editable. I know we can just remove and add the property again, but it would be nice to at least review the property. Unless we keep good records, it's hard to tell which weapons we just loaded. I tried to look at the saved txt files. It's not really in a text/xml format that can be viewed/cut/pasted. Maybe just add the text values somewhere whenever a new property is added?

    I still can't get used to selecting an attack style in one tab and having it jump to another tab to set it. Both could be in one tab to be more intuitive.

    Is it possible to set a color for some properties in the chart? It'd be nice to visualize base damage in blue, strength bonus in yellow here, overwhelming crit in red there, etc...

    I know it assumed to hit on a 2, but is it easy to change to another value other than the default 2? my melees are super gimped even with the new easy tohit system lol


    I was hoping the tool can quickly tell the difference between a +1 holy burst, icy burst of greater bane vs +4 holy bane if I hit on a 3, 4, or 5 when you implement the monster stuffs in the future.
    Most of these are easy changes. Thanks for the feedback. (I basically hacked together the interface as a mockup or tech demo. Vien is working on the real user interface.)
    Scoobmx Scoobshot Arcscoob Beefscoob : Imperial Assassins : Argonnessen
    My Builds : Abbot Raid Manual : Weapon Damage Modeler : My Trades

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Faxe View Post
    A little more feedback...

    When creating weapons, the R value is a little puzzling. Wouldn't it be easier to use a familiar value like 18 for the starting crit range? Then if needed you can calculate the R value from that.

    Once a property is added, the values for the property are no longer viewable/editable. I know we can just remove and add the property again, but it would be nice to at least review the property. Unless we keep good records, it's hard to tell which weapons we just loaded. I tried to look at the saved txt files. It's not really in a text/xml format that can be viewed/cut/pasted. Maybe just add the text values somewhere whenever a new property is added?

    I still can't get used to selecting an attack style in one tab and having it jump to another tab to set it. Both could be in one tab to be more intuitive.

    Is it possible to set a color for some properties in the chart? It'd be nice to visualize base damage in blue, strength bonus in yellow here, overwhelming crit in red there, etc...

    I know it assumed to hit on a 2, but is it easy to change to another value other than the default 2? my melees are super gimped even with the new easy tohit system lol


    I was hoping the tool can quickly tell the difference between a +1 holy burst, icy burst of greater bane vs +4 holy bane if I hit on a 3, 4, or 5 when you implement the monster stuffs in the future.
    Sorry for the slow update as I have been away for the past 2 weeks.
    As Scoob has pointed out previously the current version is just a preview version. Your suggestions regarding the UI have been noted for the development of the actual UI. Some of them are easier to address while others are not so, so we might not be able to address all the concerns brought up by the next release.
    Vienne, Vienrus, Viende, Vienneal, Vienhull, Viencap
    ChaosKnights, Argonnessen

  10. #10

    Smile

    It would be very nice (very!) if there was a common library of results, that we could use to compare one fully-modeled weapon to another.

    For instance, I am trying to decide if the differences between the Epic Templar's Justice and the Duergar Waraxe would justify the effort needed to acquire two waraxes (my character dual-wields two Epic Templar's Justice currently).

    Thanks for your efforts!

  11. #11
    The Hatchery Rawrargh's Avatar
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    Kudos
    -The mash on Argo
    In Soviet Russia Shroud trust in YOU!

  12. #12
    Community Member scoobmx's Avatar
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    Default updated

    Updated to a new version. Changes:

    1. Got rid of some bugs with the interface.
    2. Cleaned up the interface a bit to correct some confusing elements. 'Threat Range' value is now more self-evident.
    3. Damage over time procs are assumed by default to proc only once. This is more accurate if you are constantly attacking one target.
    4. Added active abilities, so things like cleave and ki strikes can be modeled. Note that they are assumed to activate whenever off cooldown, so the program doesn't know if you have more abilities than time available to use them all. If this is the case, artificially adjust the cooldown to be longer. To add an active ability, you must first create or duplicate a weapon and adjust it to be the special attack damage model (for example, for cleave, duplicate, remove doublestrike, and add a Deadly Weapon type effect for +1W renamed to 'Cleave'), then select it in the list, similar to how the attack style tab operates.
    5. Save files from the last version are not compatible with this version.
    Last edited by scoobmx; 02-18-2013 at 05:24 PM.
    Scoobmx Scoobshot Arcscoob Beefscoob : Imperial Assassins : Argonnessen
    My Builds : Abbot Raid Manual : Weapon Damage Modeler : My Trades

  13. #13
    Community Member scoobmx's Avatar
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    Added a mac version. The chart does not work on Mac and there are some odd visual glitches related to drawing or buffering. Just switch tabs and switch back to get rid of it.
    Scoobmx Scoobshot Arcscoob Beefscoob : Imperial Assassins : Argonnessen
    My Builds : Abbot Raid Manual : Weapon Damage Modeler : My Trades

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