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  1. #1

    Default Advice: PA, FoW or Unyielding Sentinel?

    Hey all,

    Hoping by the end of the month I'll be done TRing and be ready to go back to in epic content, but could use some advice and general tips as for which direction I should really be getting into.

    I build I plan on using is 12/13 cleric, 4 paladin, 4/3 Monk designed to abuse Radiant Aura (and other passiven self healing abilities).

    Originally (way back in the day) I had planned to use Unyielding Sentinel. Under todays standards I would/could be healing myself for 200hp a tick (non-crit). Actually, if I really wanted to go all out, I could hit myself for almost 300 a tick which doesn't include vampirism, fists of light, Divine Healing among other passive healing stuffz.

    Updards of 400+ HP healed a tick... passively seems awesome. But the more I planned to heal myself the less of a role I was going to fill. I don't plan on being a party healer (not that I couldn't service in a pinch of course). I could've worked as a tank, but with players constantly dealing damage in the multi thounsands... no amount of threat generation is likely to work.

    So, I wanted to get some DPS back and heres is where my head starts to spin. Going out of US drops my Aura to about 100 hp a tick (due to the loss of the 5 extra divine caster level). Which seems lackluster after reading how much damage (no exact amounts found, but it appears that I'm likely to die quickly) EE mobs do, but with the amount of EE mob HP... my gear might break before I'm done killing anything.

    But as an FYI too, The only unmoveable twist I have right now is 10% Heal Amp from Exalted Angel. everything else is optional. Other twists would likely be Sense Weakness and Tunnel Vision most likely if I kept US (I'm open to suggestions here as well )

    I guess my actual quesiton. Stay US thinking my dps will be enough without an epic moment or cut the healing aura in half and gain an epic moment that is actually worth something?

    PS> I know some will ask what else is in the build and while I'm happy to share, major adjustments will be made to the build to fit the chosen Epic Destiny so its a bit pointless. If it mattters that much, assume I have everything I could possibly need gear wise (i don't but I will get it).

    Thanks.

  2. #2
    Community Member KyrzaBladedancer's Avatar
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    I know your asking about EDs, but how set are you on 4 Pally? a ranger splash would net you more DPS, free feats, esp if you are TWF, which based on your post you are. Without crunching, nearly identical numbers with 75 pos spell power from DWS tree and more party healing to boot.

    As to your question, really depends on the content you are running and the people you are running with. the nice thing about EDs is you can switch very easily at little to no cost. I would say run around in LD or FoW, and deal with a bit less healing, unless you join a party as a healer/ backup healer.

    Jyrja, Ploratus, Alcedon, Kyrzi, Lilayn, Jaidynn, Morsus

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  3. #3
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    Wraps , good wisdom ? > Gmof
    Otherwise Fury. Dread for easy stuff.
    Sentinel is destiny useful for 0.37 % of characters in maybe 3 quests in game.
    Shahang Nezhat Bellezza Wipekin Farida of Ghallanda

  4. #4

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    Thanks for the replies!

    Sadly I'm pretty set on the 4 paladin as it nets me 20% heal amp. If I'find myself willing to drop my passive healing down I could make a case for it leaving the build.

    As for weapons, I was leaning towards wraps. I should end up with a pretty decent Stunning Fist DC which should help get through a lot of trash (especially in non-EE). In concern to who I'll be grouping with? I'm primarily solo a player, but even I need to group up sometiems (aka raids) so I want to remain as party friendly as possible. Which may be impossible with a cleric icon (the short sightedness sometimes gets to me).

    I'm suprised to see a mention for GMoF though. Isn't it bassically worse than or just as bad as US with the exception of rooms filled with trash?

    On the flip side though, if GMoF is good enough non-epic moment dps then theres hope for US?

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by KyrzaBladedancer View Post
    the nice thing about EDs is you can switch very easily at little to no cost. I would say run around in LD or FoW, and deal with a bit less healing, unless you join a party as a healer/ backup healer.
    Ah, too. The build likely changes significantly depending on wether or not I'm in US or FoW (top two contenders at the moment). Mainly because of a stance switch. WIth US I'll be in Fire so I can hit that 200% aura mark. If i'm not trying to hit that mark then Air or likely Earth will bend up being the stance of choice. Which require a different feat set, making it harder for me to switch EDs.

    Again thanks for the replies. Getting some good info and will continue to appreciate the help.

  6. #6
    Community Member Raoull's Avatar
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    Hmmm... I think your statement about Fire stance is telling.

    Gear is a huge factor for monk DPS. Since you attack so often, anything that does +X damage is basically doing +2X when compared to a THF toon.

    If you're in Fire stance, that means you have Jidz Tetka. Which takes a slot for nothing but Hamp really. If you're doing that, I have to assume you also have 30 & 20 Hamp gear as well (most likely PDK gloves and a ToD ring). Which means you're sacrificing 3 slots, in addition to your stance (Fire is probably the worst stance, even if it has by far the best Jidz Tetka boost) just for Hamp (not to mention APs).

    Now, I love Hamp as much as the next guy. Eh, scratch that, I love it way more than the next guy, but even I won't sacrifice that much for it. My monk mutt runs with PDK gloves and conval of super parry bracers, on top of 2x10 and 4x5 from enhancements. But you need so much stuff for DPS, that I can't see going above that.

    Holy Tod Ring, Stalker Ring, lootgen Deadly item, Stormreaver Pendant.... all of these are worth more than 5 damage per hit, which is the line I tend to draw for DPS items. On top of that, you also really want a Combat Mastery item for stuns.... something has to give.

    Jidz means too much Hamp, and not enough everything else. The worst part about it, is what it competes against. Conval/Greater Conval of Superior Parry bracers give a very comparable amount of Hamp, without requiring the worst stance, and add +4 saves on top of that. (And if you're really lucky, a clear or guild slot.) Sure, an epic Jidz gives 2 slots, but you can't slot superior parry.

    To be perfectly honest... I had a plan very similar to yours for rebuilding my long time clonk. I found as a clonk that my DPS just isn't what it used to be, and I was squishier in EEs than I'd like. I think a battle divine can do DPS.... but not if you also go for the Wisdom necessary for the monkish CC. I think you pretty much have to All In your various feats and Destinies for DPS (including Overwhelming Crit), meaning you can't also do Wis based CCs... at which point, wraps are probably not the best option, especially in the modern PRR game. After a bunch of theorizing, I instead decided to TR him into an improved version of my monky multitasker, and stop being a clonk for the first time.

    I think clonk could probably still be done.... but only if you worry about healing and CC, and more or less give up on DPS. Go Wis based, and run in GMOF, you could be a huge asset to a party.... but not really blowing anything away on your own.


    If I were to go with a clonky mutt like you're aiming for, I'd still drift in the direction of the monkitasker I'm running now. At the very least, you'll really want to go with Master Earth stance for the PRR (which is now 27 with enhancements, or 42 with GMOF), and 6 lvls of monk for Shadow Fade. The PRR is at least as good as the Jidz Hamp you get, and you get a better crit profile without costing a slot. And the Hamp you get from going Pal 4 is not worth losing the reduction in damage you'd get from Shadow Fade. 12C/M6/P2 is the split I'd recommend.


    Random note... in theory FoW would be great for a monk, but the reality is it is a bit bugged. I find my Adrenaline knockdowns don't last anywhere near the 10 secs they should, and handwrap damage goes buggy very frequently, requiring a weapon swap to fix.
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  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raoull View Post
    Hmmm... I think your statement about Fire stance is telling.

    Gear is a huge factor for monk DPS. Since you attack so often, anything that does +X damage is basically doing +2X when compared to a THF toon.

    If you're in Fire stance, that means you have Jidz Tetka. Which takes a slot for nothing but Hamp really. If you're doing that, I have to assume you also have 30 & 20 Hamp gear as well (most likely PDK gloves and a ToD ring). Which means you're sacrificing 3 slots, in addition to your stance (Fire is probably the worst stance, even if it has by far the best Jidz Tetka boost) just for Hamp (not to mention APs).

    Now, I love Hamp as much as the next guy. Eh, scratch that, I love it way more than the next guy, but even I won't sacrifice that much for it. My monk mutt runs with PDK gloves and conval of super parry bracers, on top of 2x10 and 4x5 from enhancements. But you need so much stuff for DPS, that I can't see going above that.

    Holy Tod Ring, Stalker Ring, lootgen Deadly item, Stormreaver Pendant.... all of these are worth more than 5 damage per hit, which is the line I tend to draw for DPS items. On top of that, you also really want a Combat Mastery item for stuns.... something has to give.

    Jidz means too much Hamp, and not enough everything else. The worst part about it, is what it competes against. Conval/Greater Conval of Superior Parry bracers give a very comparable amount of Hamp, without requiring the worst stance, and add +4 saves on top of that. (And if you're really lucky, a clear or guild slot.) Sure, an epic Jidz gives 2 slots, but you can't slot superior parry.

    To be perfectly honest... I had a plan very similar to yours for rebuilding my long time clonk. I found as a clonk that my DPS just isn't what it used to be, and I was squishier in EEs than I'd like. I think a battle divine can do DPS.... but not if you also go for the Wisdom necessary for the monkish CC. I think you pretty much have to All In your various feats and Destinies for DPS (including Overwhelming Crit), meaning you can't also do Wis based CCs... at which point, wraps are probably not the best option, especially in the modern PRR game. After a bunch of theorizing, I instead decided to TR him into an improved version of my monky multitasker, and stop being a clonk for the first time.

    I think clonk could probably still be done.... but only if you worry about healing and CC, and more or less give up on DPS. Go Wis based, and run in GMOF, you could be a huge asset to a party.... but not really blowing anything away on your own.


    If I were to go with a clonky mutt like you're aiming for, I'd still drift in the direction of the monkitasker I'm running now. At the very least, you'll really want to go with Master Earth stance for the PRR (which is now 27 with enhancements, or 42 with GMOF), and 6 lvls of monk for Shadow Fade. The PRR is at least as good as the Jidz Hamp you get, and you get a better crit profile without costing a slot. And the Hamp you get from going Pal 4 is not worth losing the reduction in damage you'd get from Shadow Fade. 12C/M6/P2 is the split I'd recommend.


    Random note... in theory FoW would be great for a monk, but the reality is it is a bit bugged. I find my Adrenaline knockdowns don't last anywhere near the 10 secs they should, and handwrap damage goes buggy very frequently, requiring a weapon swap to fix.
    Close but not quite my friend. If I continue to go for the better aura, fire with jidz...ya that's happening. The other two slots lost will be the gloves, but not rings. Currently, I'm planning on using dt armor for both 10 and 20%.

    That being said, dps from items isn't my concern here. Its the dps generated from EDs. Which, in my opinion is likely to be the deciding factor for everything. It will determine my feats, items, stance, aura, possibly weapon choice, etc...

    In another light the question remians, is US's addage (w/ 2 twists) to damage output "good enough" for todays endgame or I should I look in other areas (likely fow)?

  8. #8
    Community Member Raoull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnus_Arcanis View Post
    That being said, dps from items isn't my concern here. Its the dps generated from EDs. Which, in my opinion is likely to be the deciding factor for everything. It will determine my feats, items, stance, aura, possibly weapon choice, etc...

    In another light the question remians, is US's addage (w/ 2 twists) to damage output "good enough" for todays endgame or I should I look in other areas (likely fow)?
    Well.... If you're going handwraps, Destiny DPS just isn't as good as it is for other weaps.

    FoW should be solid, and is OK, but tunnel vision is bugged with wraps. (Adrenaline knockdown is either bugged in general, or bugged with wraps... seems to knock down 2 secs regardless of points spent.) Tunnel vision should be a good tier 1 twist except that bug thing.... Sense Weakness is very good to twist (especially if you stun), but Tier 4.

    Legendary Dreadnaught is solid, but should be better except for reasons beyond anyone's comprehension the cleavy moves are "working as intended" by not working with handwraps. Action Boost haste is a very good twist, although lvl3.

    Shadowdancer is pretty solid (if target is stunned / someone else has aggro), and will even get you back that 25% Incorp you lose from not having Shadowfade.

    GMOF is meh... although the best DPS part (Dance of flowers) is twistable. But.... while DPS isn't that great... better stuns, Drifing Lotus and EiN are all awesome from a CC perspective, assuming you are Wis based.

    Unyielding Sentinel offers practically nothing in terms of DPS. Nice for survivabililty, but at some point you have to do something other than survive.

    PA, outside of the epic moment, offers very little DPS as well. I guess StormRage looks interesting, although very SP intensive.

    If you are Wis based, GMOF will probably be your best destiny. If not, you may just want to ditch wraps, pick up IC: Pierce and use short swords. Then, either go with FotW for a DPS/CC combo, or LD (best if you have cleaves).


    But.... I'm not so sure you should discount item DPS as compared to Destiny DPS. For THFers, that may be true. But for handwrap users, I don't think any destiny (discounting an active blitz) can add the ~30 damage per hit of the 4 listed items. (Although a combo of destiny and twists might be able to. But... even then, dest + items >> dest.) Monks hit very frequently... and lots of small stuff really adds up.


    There is much talk about Juggs and similar builds relying on Destinies for their DPS. But that's really an abbreviation..... they rely more on destinies than they do on class abilities. They still rely on Gear.
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  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raoull View Post
    Well.... If you're going handwraps, Destiny DPS just isn't as good as it is for other weaps.

    FoW should be solid, and is OK, but tunnel vision is bugged with wraps. (Adrenaline knockdown is either bugged in general, or bugged with wraps... seems to knock down 2 secs regardless of points spent.) Tunnel vision should be a good tier 1 twist except that bug thing.... Sense Weakness is very good to twist (especially if you stun), but Tier 4.

    Legendary Dreadnaught is solid, but should be better except for reasons beyond anyone's comprehension the cleavy moves are "working as intended" by not working with handwraps. Action Boost haste is a very good twist, although lvl3.

    Shadowdancer is pretty solid (if target is stunned / someone else has aggro), and will even get you back that 25% Incorp you lose from not having Shadowfade.

    GMOF is meh... although the best DPS part (Dance of flowers) is twistable. But.... while DPS isn't that great... better stuns, Drifing Lotus and EiN are all awesome from a CC perspective, assuming you are Wis based.

    Unyielding Sentinel offers practically nothing in terms of DPS. Nice for survivabililty, but at some point you have to do something other than survive.

    PA, outside of the epic moment, offers very little DPS as well. I guess StormRage looks interesting, although very SP intensive.

    If you are Wis based, GMOF will probably be your best destiny. If not, you may just want to ditch wraps, pick up IC: Pierce and use short swords. Then, either go with FotW for a DPS/CC combo, or LD (best if you have cleaves).


    But.... I'm not so sure you should discount item DPS as compared to Destiny DPS. For THFers, that may be true. But for handwrap users, I don't think any destiny (discounting an active blitz) can add the ~30 damage per hit of the 4 listed items. (Although a combo of destiny and twists might be able to. But... even then, dest + items >> dest.) Monks hit very frequently... and lots of small stuff really adds up.


    There is much talk about Juggs and similar builds relying on Destinies for their DPS. But that's really an abbreviation..... they rely more on destinies than they do on class abilities. They still rely on Gear.
    Oh no, I'm sorry. I'm not discounting items at all. I"m simply not at the stage yet. The only thing I truely have set is the concept of using passive healing. Otherwise I'm attempting to build from the top down.

    The point of the thread is to pick the brains of those with access to the current endgame (I'm caught in the wierd position of not having a alt high enough nor any guild members even approaching cap at the moment). Namely in respect to, with all else being relatively equal, is Unyeidling Sentinel (with 2 open twists) a "good enough" option as a non-Sword&Board option?

    It seems like a no, but its hard to tell with so many of the comments focusing on other areas of the build that aren't set in stone yet.

    On a side note... DC in the low 60's good enough for Stunning Fist still or is that no longer reliable in Epic Elite?

  10. #10
    Community Member Raoull's Avatar
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    Ah, my apologies. I have an Information Overload toggle that often gets set to on when I'm not watching it.... I'll try to stay more focused.

    US is really not a good general purpose destiny. It is great if you are doing content that requries a tank, and you are that tank. Other than that, the only real good use I've seen is occasionally for a divine who thinks "As long as I don't die, we'll get through this.". US is good for not dying. It isn't that good for anything else.

    As for a low 60s stunning fist.... well, it won't be reliable against brutish types, but it will be reliable against wizards and such. Even against brutish types is will work occasionally.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raoull View Post
    Ah, my apologies. I have an Information Overload toggle that often gets set to on when I'm not watching it.... I'll try to stay more focused.

    US is really not a good general purpose destiny. It is great if you are doing content that requries a tank, and you are that tank. Other than that, the only real good use I've seen is occasionally for a divine who thinks "As long as I don't die, we'll get through this.". US is good for not dying. It isn't that good for anything else.

    As for a low 60s stunning fist.... well, it won't be reliable against brutish types, but it will be reliable against wizards and such. Even against brutish types is will work occasionally.
    Agreed on US. It's my 'go to' ED for tanking (dwarf fighter), but DPS is meh.

    How do you calculate your Stunning Blow DC? I know I can see my DC for some tactical stuff with a mouse hover, but I can't with Stunning Blow. Can you see it on Stunning Fist?

    Also, did they Seal of House Dun'Robar rings get fixed? I understand that once upon a time they were bugged with Vertigo adding to stun DC and Stunning adding to trip DC!

    But I was running EE TOR the other day and getting a few stuns on the giants - no idea what my DC is thogh! Str 48, Seal of Dun'Robar +10, Ring of Consuming Darkness (+5 insight), +6 (from LD ED), Stunning Blow feat.

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