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  1. #1
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    Default Epic Elite - how to survive and augment for fortification?

    Ok, so me and my merry band of hirelings were able to do this particular quest on epic hard, and it was doable - I had to stay awake, but it was doable.

    So we tried epic elite - first encounter-BLAM!

    I have no idea how in the world I could survive, even in a group. Not that I see any groups for anything in the FR chains except Rusted Blades farming. How can I have confidence to start my own LFM if I have no clue how to survive the first encounter?

    Fortification?

    I tried to decipher the combat log and one thing I noticed was how hard the melee mobs were wailing on me. So I figure I need more than 100% fortification.

    So I have this augment slot in my Epic Cavalry plate that I can slot more fort in, but they're going to change augments in U17, so do I grind up enough tokens now and if I do will the stone even let me augment now since they're "disabled" until U17?

    Or do I wait and just not run anything that needs exceptional fort?

    I'd love to try some epic elite. I'm only a bit self sufficient (especially in EE) and I see no groups for any of the FR quests and even if I did, without healers in the group I am hesitant to join, don't want to get in the way of all the self sufficients.

    Of course, I -could- just switch and build an alt and mothball my main....

  2. #2
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    What build are you using for your main toon right now. Might be able to give a few tips if you're struggling for basic survival. Epic elite is so far beyond epic hard that it's confusing why there isn't a better difficulty bridge between the two.

    Worst case scenario any melee with some healing amp and 650ish hp can chug silver flame pots and survive as long as you don't have too many mobs on you. Get your saves as high as you reasonably can (40+ as a baseline to start seeing decent results) to shrug off huge damage spikes from damage spells and other spells that can reduce your ability to survive. Know your enemies and have absorption items on hand if a specific element is being tossed around (like lightning absorb for U15 as a general rule). The "do not fail save on a 1" twists can be great if you're looking to survive specific situations and your saves are extremely high.
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  3. #3
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    .... its epic elite, its not meant to be soloable easily, especially with hirelings. epic Hard is like +5 levels above epic normal. Epic elite is about +20. Epic hard can be soloed even without a hireling on alot of different toons, you cant expect epic elite to be the same, its meant to be somewhat challenging to a group of level 25's with a maxed out destinies.

    as for fortification, rogue-like mobs (just about every mob in epic) they can bypass 1% per cr. alot of the mobs in epic elite are like 50+cr, thus 100% is only giving about half protecting. Thus everyone after 20 should have over 100% fort if they cant handle the damage, which is rather easy to get through items/destinies... try to aim for ~150% fort.

    I wouldnt waste time with slotting in augments. the green slot is for heavy fort, hopefully you already have a heavy fort item, and they dont stack, now if it is about relocating items around so you cant slot an exceptional fort item in, then I would say go ahead. although getting a new armor would be easier (i would suggest Leaves of teh forest if your looking to consolidate your item slots. http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Leaves_of_the_Forest)

  4. #4
    The Hatchery DarkForte's Avatar
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    Epic hard scales a lot with the amount of people in there. Epic elite doesn't (as much). Even though most of them ARE soloable, an unprepared soloist will get trampled on an EE, hirelings or no hirelings. Get a full group to start with and try to use some tactics (single-pulling, using choke-points, bard cc, etc), and you'll feel a great difference. Bringing a bunch of hires and expecting to trample the quest is out of question.

    Self-sufficiency is a bit harder on EE if you're the kind of player that needs a hireling strapped to him. However, if your entire group focuses on only getting on one mob at a time (helps if you have a caster/bard with good cc) and you have people with good trip/stun DCs, the incoming damage can be low enough that you'll only need full-time healing if you're going face-to-face with a boss instead of doing something like dot/range-kiting. I've had EE groups where my monk-ranger-girl just had to scroll herself when a rogue or a spider broke off and stunning fist was on timer. It's all to do with how you engage. If you approach the quest with the mentality of go in, hires do stuff, auto attack, win eventually, you're going to have to keep at the whining, because it isn't going to happen.

    Also, if you just feel like being cheap, monks with decent wisdom, high stunning and everything is nothing are the ultimate EE easy button. A party with 3 of those can steam-roll most content with ease.
    Last edited by DarkForte; 11-22-2012 at 09:42 PM.
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  5. #5
    The Hatchery MRMechMan's Avatar
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    Translation:

    "I didn't know the quest well enough to lfm, nor did I have the confidence to, yet I expected to be able to solo the quest, on epic elite, with some hires on an undergeared, 'only a bit self sufficient' melee with 100% fort. Why did things not swing my way, oh forumites?"

    The vast majority of your posts are whiney wingefests but this one takes the cake.

    Put up an lfm. From what I have seen on my server, if you want to run it, someone else probably does as well, and groups fill fast for non-dead content. Sure there is less demand for EEs now, as some ppl have the favor done, but people WILL join most of the time. Even if you fail, you had a better chance of success then running into an EE quest with hirelings.

    What advice did you possibly expect to get from the forums regarding your EE solo suicidefest? That there was a little trick that would make a non self-healing melee suddenly start crushing EE quests?

  6. #6
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    I did not expect to be able to solo an EE quest, with or without hirelings. I also forgot how brutal the forums could be.

    Several people have made good suggestions, some of which I already considered and some of which I will reconsider now, and I will take the portion of yours that suggests I make my own LFM as a "go for it" and I will indeed "go for it."

    Your advice may be helpful but I find your characterization of my posts unfair and your confrontational style unnecessarily aggressive and inappropriate. However, I am honored that you pay so much attention to my posts.

    This is a game, and I am here to have fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by MRMechMan View Post
    Translation:

    "I didn't know the quest well enough to lfm, nor did I have the confidence to, yet I expected to be able to solo the quest, on epic elite, with some hires on an undergeared, 'only a bit self sufficient' melee with 100% fort. Why did things not swing my way, oh forumites?"

    The vast majority of your posts are whiney wingefests but this one takes the cake.

    Put up an lfm. From what I have seen on my server, if you want to run it, someone else probably does as well, and groups fill fast for non-dead content. Sure there is less demand for EEs now, as some ppl have the favor done, but people WILL join most of the time. Even if you fail, you had a better chance of success then running into an EE quest with hirelings.

    What advice did you possibly expect to get from the forums regarding your EE solo suicidefest? That there was a little trick that would make a non self-healing melee suddenly start crushing EE quests?

  7. #7

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    Well, I do like to solo and duo epic elites. So, I'll try to help. But, without more detail about your character, this is going to be tricky. You're a melee. What is your PRR? Are you using heavy armor / shield? Any defensive feats? What about CC? Stunning Fist / Blow? UMD score?

    Get blur, get ghostly. If possible displacement scrolls / clickies. Blurry item + ghostly reduces incoming melee damage by 28%. Depending on your armor situation, dodge may help as well. A Mabar cloak could be an easy to acquire pick. Ring of the stalker can be a nice item with ghostly for the more dps types. GS blurry items are easy to come by. Or get the house C bracers if nothing else (also has some dodge, but generally not ideal for a melee).

    Get your fort over 100%. 160 or so would be great. But 140 is easy enough with brace for impact as a twist. You could also slot exception fort gear. Leaves of the Forest can help here as well.

    Are you a ranger or pally? Pick-up the devotion enhancements and twist in Regenerative Cocoon from primal avatar.

    Heal-amp? Human / H-elf racial / monk enhancements. PDK gloves. Also, make sure your hp can take a few hits between heals. What is your hp?

    AC can help, if you can get it without gimping yourself. I need a lot more info to offer any meaningful suggestions for you though.

    As for tactics:
    Trip and stun mobs. Small pulls. Use bluff to pull a single mob, trip / stun him. If it gets rough, kite while waiting on your hire to heal you - they sometimes take a while to notice.

    If you want better advice us, tell us your class & feats at least. Also, what level of gear do you have / can you get?

  8. #8
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    I wouldnt worry about U17 yet. We know absolutely zilch about how this new change with augments will affect us. In the past, when epic gear and such were changed, we had an easy way to upgrade if we wanted to. I doubt the devs will make a change that will screw everybody with current epic slots.

    My advice is to learn EE quests with a group first and maybe you will pick up some strategies and hints on how to solo it. And maybe you will pick up some better gear along the way. Being better at self sufficiency is always a good thing and for EE soloing on a melee with, im assuming, little to no umd, so SF favor is your friend. It doesnt hurt to bring a hire. If you know how to use them and keep them out of harms way, than that can make things easier. On my barb, i was using SF pots and Klin when i solo'd epics before epic levels. Once i got the strategy down, the end fights was the only real hard part.

  9. #9
    Community Member Robai's Avatar
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    If you need high fortification then there is a very easy way to get 150% fortification:
    Heavy fortification item (+100%)
    Exceptional fortification item (+25%, stacks with heavy fort)
    Fabricator's set (+25%, stacks with both bonuses above)

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMechMan View Post
    Translation:

    "I didn't know the quest well enough to lfm, nor did I have the confidence to, yet I expected to be able to solo the quest, on epic elite, with some hires on an undergeared, 'only a bit self sufficient' melee with 100% fort. Why did things not swing my way, oh forumites?"

    The vast majority of your posts are whiney wingefests but this one takes the cake.

    Put up an lfm. From what I have seen on my server, if you want to run it, someone else probably does as well, and groups fill fast for non-dead content. Sure there is less demand for EEs now, as some ppl have the favor done, but people WILL join most of the time. Even if you fail, you had a better chance of success then running into an EE quest with hirelings.

    What advice did you possibly expect to get from the forums regarding your EE solo suicidefest? That there was a little trick that would make a non self-healing melee suddenly start crushing EE quests?

    -What a helpful post, gold star for you-

    I didn't read all the comments so I'm not sure if it's been said, I just skimmed them but a good start would be twisting in brace for impact which I think gives 40% fort, you can also get randomly generated 10% and 25 % items

    You need a fortification of 100% + the mobs CR to not get crit but coming close is good enough. When mobs have a 56 CR rating for instance only having 100% fort means when they roll a chance at a crit they have a 56% chance to succeed. So you need 156% fort not to get crit by them or something close to limit the chance that they can crit you.

    As for your worries about dieing in a group, in epic elites people die, but to help you we would need to know hp/race/class(and perhaps gear layout) to help improve your saves, hp, prr, healing amp etc so you can take more of a beating and be healed easier. Also dodge bonus could be worth looking into to help a little more, permanent blur and displacement clickies can really help. But with some decent hp and healing amp there shouldn't be to much of a problem for a healer to heal you. IMO every character should be self sufficient in anyway possible, heal scrolls, silver flame pots, hell cure serious wounds can save you sometimes if you have to flee and heal up so having that healing amp will be very very helpful even with a healer.

    In most epic groups grab a healer and a CC caster if you can to help with heals(and maybe someone who can get traps) and making sure you aren't getting mauled by mobs. If you feel you are a little squishy don't try and take main aggro and watch out for aimlessly swinging mobs.

    Again sorry if I said something someone else already said but I did a very quick skim of the post.

  11. #11
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    Guys, did you even read the title and his post? He is asking for HELP, nowhere he said he was expecting to SOLO IT with hirelings AT THE FIRST TRY.

    READ THE THREAD, THEN TALK. Give it a rest.


    Now, for serious and helpful information:

    • First of all, as you said, start getting more than 100% fort. If you have farmed a little bit of destiny, twist Brace for Impact, losing some dps. It grants - almost - immunity to crits and SA from all the new quests in EE.
    • Then, start getting dodge. I've no idea what your build is but at least 10% dodge if you are a melee. The more the better.
    • Slot Blurry and Ghostly in your equip.
    • Make Displacement clickies, 4-5 or even 10 of them. 50% chance to miss is awesome.
    • Most important thing: do not run into a group of mob. If you do that, you are almost certainly dead. Bring out a thrower weapon and lure one mob at time to you. 1on1 or even 2on1 with hirelings, even in EE, with all those chances to be missed, you shouldn't have TOO MUCH trouble.
    • I guess you are a melee since you are wearing an ECP. Get more PRR if you can.
    • Have you any form of CC? Stunning blow, trip? Use them.


    That's all it comes to mind to me at the moment.

  12. #12
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Firstly I suggest trying to get full-group EE experience.

    What's needed in EE (much more than EH) is fast reflexes and ruthless prioritization from healing-specialised characters. Hirelings are mediocre at the first and awful at the second.

    This means recognising that someone that's at 200/900hp but not being faced by any mobs is in a lot less danger than someone at 600/900hp that has three EE Efreeti staring at them. (If the player in question has low PRR, they are at imminent risk of death if those are DQ2 efreeti). In this situation - hit the person at 600 with a quickened Heal, then throw a scroll at the person at 200. Hirelings do not know how to do this and so you'll find them bad. Also you need to know who must be kept alive at any cost and who can be allowed to go splat if things get hairy.

    In full-group EE, I assume one rule: Crit happens. People will die to unexpected burst damage (although more often from failed saves to spells than from melee hits or melee crits). That's why we have raise spells.

    On fortification: Twist in Brace for Impact (+40% Fort, +2 saves) as soon as you are able to. Then twist in a +6 Ref saves ability (there's quite a lot to choose from, Magister's one is strongest IMO) if your Reflex save is under 48 (43 before Haste or GH). Don't go out of your way to push over 140% fort though - accept that crit happens and that you will survive most of them.


    Once you have that experience, try again with less people.
    Last edited by sirgog; 11-23-2012 at 05:21 AM.
    I don't have a zerging problem.

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  13. #13
    The Hatchery DarkForte's Avatar
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    Having over 100% fort is nowhere near necessary for most quests. Detour is an exception because it's littered with rogues who hit HARD, it's not the general rule. I run with only 100% pretty much all the time, the only quests where I've had crit issues were broken chains (spider room), detour and end of the road (of course, my melee naturally runs with shadow fade, blurry and some dodge, so it isn't that bad most of the time).
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  14. #14
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    One more thing to add. Carry an exceptional Fort item that you can swap in (at the cost of a +DPS item) for some fights.

    Against say the EE Dun'robar Matron (not as important a fight now as it was pre-U16 because of the tome changes, but still worth running) you definitely want 150% or more Fortification if you are tanking her. But for most encounters you don't need it.
    I don't have a zerging problem.

    I'm zerging. That's YOUR problem.

  15. #15
    Community Member Darkfury's Avatar
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    Why can't some people try to be more helpful

    You mention Epic Cavalry Plate. I am not sure what class you are, apologies if I missed it. If you wear heavy armour the Cavalry Plate is actually quite poor now. The PRR from that is much lower than even random loot gen heavy armor as it is considered medium armor for the application of PRR. If you can wear real heavy plate without detriment to your build, you could improve your PRR and probably your AC by switching that out.

  16. #16
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    I appreciate all the advice, will post more details later, must work.

    Quickly, 800+HP in stance with current Destinies, 600+ without...

    I was thinking of trying "Rest Stop", Rusted Blades would be a tough end fight wouldn't it? Or is it easy enough to kite/pull?

    Hesitant to switch out of Cavalry because I'd lose the other bennies of it, I take it I'm wrong in that...have seen stronger AC plate...not as familiar with PRR as I should be..

    I completely agree I need to hone my pulling skills. As for bluff, need more bluff and hesitant to LR due to possible bug.

    Love the twist ideas if I can muster the points and the destinies....I do love the regenerating Lay on Hands....Will look up the destinies mentioned....I -really- need to look at a list of all the twists available...

    Am now working on Silver Flame rep..lot of work to do...

    Saves are something like 45/35/35 - will check in game and get back....

    AC is like 75 two handed 95 S&B

    Love to find/create a good group....finding/creating good LFMs is part of my concern, admit my lack of experience and confidence, admit I have to work on that. Love my guild but they're modest sized and my schedule is kinda weird, so easier to look to the PUG scene...

    Did not expect detailed build questions, will go in-game later and post feats/saves/prr etc.
    Last edited by My2Cents; 11-23-2012 at 07:59 AM.

  17. #17
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by My2Cents View Post
    I appreciate all the advice, will post more details later, must work.

    Quickly, 800+HP in stance with current Destinies, 600+ without...

    I was thinking of trying "Rest Stop", Rusted Blades would be a tough end fight wouldn't it? Or is it easy enough to kite/pull?

    Hesitant to switch out of Cavalry because I'd lose the other bennies of it, I take it I'm wrong in that...have seen stronger AC plate...not as familiar with PRR as I should be..

    I completely agree I need to hone my pulling skills. As for bluff, need more bluff and hesitant to LR due to possible bug.

    Love the twist ideas if I can muster the points and the destinies....I do love the regenerating Lay on Hands....Will look up the destinies mentioned....I -really- need to look at a list of all the twists available...

    Am now working on Silver Flame rep..lot of work to do...

    Saves are something like 45/35/35 - will check in game and get back....

    AC is like 75 two handed 95 S&B

    Love to find/create a good group....finding/creating good LFMs is part of my concern, admit my lack of experience and confidence, admit I have to work on that. Love my guild but they're modest sized and my schedule is kinda weird, so easier to look to the PUG scene...

    Did not expect detailed build questions, will go in-game later and post feats/saves/prr etc.
    Sounds like you are going in the right direction. If you can find friends/guildies to run EE, than that could be better. If not, pugging can be painful or it can be wonderful. Thats just the chance you take.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by My2Cents View Post
    I appreciate all the advice, will post more details later, must work.

    Quickly, 800+HP in stance with current Destinies, 600+ without...

    I was thinking of trying "Rest Stop", Rusted Blades would be a tough end fight wouldn't it? Or is it easy enough to kite/pull?

    Hesitant to switch out of Cavalry because I'd lose the other bennies of it, I take it I'm wrong in that...have seen stronger AC plate...not as familiar with PRR as I should be..

    I completely agree I need to hone my pulling skills. As for bluff, need more bluff and hesitant to LR due to possible bug.

    Love the twist ideas if I can muster the points and the destinies....I do love the regenerating Lay on Hands....Will look up the destinies mentioned....I -really- need to look at a list of all the twists available...

    Am now working on Silver Flame rep..lot of work to do...

    Saves are something like 45/35/35 - will check in game and get back....

    AC is like 75 two handed 95 S&B

    Love to find/create a good group....finding/creating good LFMs is part of my concern, admit my lack of experience and confidence, admit I have to work on that. Love my guild but they're modest sized and my schedule is kinda weird, so easier to look to the PUG scene...

    Did not expect detailed build questions, will go in-game later and post feats/saves/prr etc.
    Sounds like you are in Unyielding Sentinel, and a paladin. The problem with the epic Calvary plate is that it counts as medium armor, not heavy. That costs you 2 + 1/3 your BAB in PRR. Assuming you are level 25 and pure pally, that about 10 PRR, which would give a damage reduction of 6.22% from how much you currently take. The PDK armor (http://ddowiki.com/page/Purple_Dragon_Armor) would server you better, if you are indeed proficient with heavy armor. Same AC, offers DR5/- verses DR5/Chaos, both have sup false life. It has heavy fort instead of the blue slot, which can be okay. Demonic shield is fairly weak these days, and is in any case much weaker than the PRR difference. 5 resistance can be readily replaced by a resistance 6 or 7 item. You can get 2 higher AC with the Calvary plate depending on your dex, but again, weaker than the PRR difference. Of course, there are better armors, but the PDK one is very easy to get. And the set bonus can be nice, depending on the rest of your gear.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMechMan View Post
    Translation:

    "I didn't know the quest well enough to lfm, nor did I have the confidence to, yet I expected to be able to solo the quest, on epic elite, with some hires on an undergeared, 'only a bit self sufficient' melee with 100% fort. Why did things not swing my way, oh forumites?"

    The vast majority of your posts are whiney wingefests but this one takes the cake.

    Put up an lfm. From what I have seen on my server, if you want to run it, someone else probably does as well, and groups fill fast for non-dead content. Sure there is less demand for EEs now, as some ppl have the favor done, but people WILL join most of the time. Even if you fail, you had a better chance of success then running into an EE quest with hirelings.

    What advice did you possibly expect to get from the forums regarding your EE solo suicidefest? That there was a little trick that would make a non self-healing melee suddenly start crushing EE quests?
    Wow not how I read the OP at all, totally uncalled for insults, people love to claim they can deal with neg rep as long as it's not anonymous or unexplained. Consider this an explanation. I'll probably still get plenty of return negs but it needs to be said, your post -- especially after several actual helpful posts -- was just totally out of line.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisdinus7 View Post
    Sounds like you are in Unyielding Sentinel, and a paladin. The problem with the epic Calvary plate is that it counts as medium armor, not heavy. That costs you 2 + 1/3 your BAB in PRR. Assuming you are level 25 and pure pally, that about 10 PRR, which would give a damage reduction of 6.22% from how much you currently take. The PDK armor (http://ddowiki.com/page/Purple_Dragon_Armor) would server you better, if you are indeed proficient with heavy armor. Same AC, offers DR5/- verses DR5/Chaos, both have sup false life. It has heavy fort instead of the blue slot, which can be okay. Demonic shield is fairly weak these days, and is in any case much weaker than the PRR difference. 5 resistance can be readily replaced by a resistance 6 or 7 item. You can get 2 higher AC with the Calvary plate depending on your dex, but again, weaker than the PRR difference. Of course, there are better armors, but the PDK one is very easy to get. And the set bonus can be nice, depending on the rest of your gear.
    -that- is incredibly helpful. In fact, I was about to click the trade button for the PDK armor yesterday but held back...I'll make the change ASAP. Much thanks. Will have to evaluate the set later...

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