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  1. #1
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    Default Bloodletting, Ribcracking, Heartseeking math

    So I got a bit bored and started calculating the new suffixes for U16. Sad, isn't it?

    The reason I became interested is because these weapons actually end up being effective all-around weapons. These weapon suffixes are really a misnomer, because they actually do slashing/blunt/piercing damage. Blood, Hearts and Ribs are not required. I have tested this on the ship dummy. In fact, I would argue that they make great all around golem/undead/elemental beaters (mobs immune to crit where the benefits of the usual weapon types are muted).

    Anyone have any idea if this is WAI? It's just a name after all, and it wouldn't be the first time DDO had something that was a little misleading.

    Superior Ribcracker, Bloodletting, Heartseeking.

    On critical hit:
    x2 - 13d6 - 13-78 - Average 45.5
    x3 - 13d8 - 13-104 - avg 58.5
    x4 - 13d10 - 13-130 - avg 71.5

    Assuming Improved Critical Feat, assuming all critical hits confirm.

    Rapiers/Scimitars/Falchions/Kukri (base 18-20/x2)
    45.5*6/20 = 13.65 damage per swing

    Khopesh (base 19-20/x3)
    58.5*4/20 = 11.68

    Longswords/fella swords/crossbows (base 19-20/x2)
    45.5*4/20 = 9.1

    Picks (base 20/x4)
    71.5*2/20 = 7.15

    Axes/Mauls/bows (base 20/x3)
    58.5*2/20 = 5.85

    Clubs/Mace/Fists (base 20/x2)
    45.5*2/20 = 4.55

    Looking at the calculations, the effectiveness of these suffixes is clearly related to the type of weapon they are on.

    Futhermore, I’m not entirely certain how player abilities (like Overwhelming critical, Frenzied Bezerker, or Earth stance) play into this. Also it is interesting to compare this to other commonly desired suffixes. Hemorrhaging is 2d8 or average 9 points of damage. Greater Bane is still king, with 14.5 points of damage (editted, thank you responders). Both of those suffixes have substantial limitations, however in that they can only be used against certain targets.

    Would love to get some feedback on what people are thinking about these weapons.
    Last edited by aristarchus1000; 11-22-2012 at 02:34 PM.
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  2. #2
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    interesting and it seems correct.

    As far as I know any change on the multipliers (fb, earth stance, OC ...) have no impact on the multiplier for these type of effect. Only base weapon is taken into account.

    In conclusion that's not a really fair suffix ...

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaobang View Post
    interesting and it seems correct.

    As far as I know any change on the multipliers (fb, earth stance, OC ...) have no impact on the multiplier for these type of effect. Only base weapon is taken into account.

    In conclusion that's not a really fair suffix ...
    Thanks Kaobang, I was never sure how the other weapon effects worked (bursts, maiming).

    Not sure what you mean by "fair?" Honestly I think it helps balance the dominance of khopesh for TWF dps builds, but it does leave longswords and other weapons even further behind.
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  4. #4
    Community Member xoowak's Avatar
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    Why compare to other suffixes, when you can have both? The new Mangling includes Superior Blood/Rib/Heart AND Phlebotomizing. Should be by far the best suffix against bleeding enemies.

  5. #5
    Community Member DeafeningWhisper's Avatar
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    Too bad, I was looking forward to a nice Roadwatch bow for my Kensai AA, guess I'll stick to Pinion.
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  6. #6
    Community Member rest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeafeningWhisper View Post
    Too bad, I was looking forward to a nice Roadwatch bow for my Kensai AA, guess I'll stick to Pinion.
    Roadhouse bow is still nice when you're lazy about breaking two-type DR. Only have to feed it arrows of the appropriate metal type.

    Yes, I know it's Roadwatch, I don't care. It will always be the Roadhouse bow to me.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a-qreb8w0I

  7. #7
    Community Member DeafeningWhisper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rest View Post
    Roadhouse bow is still nice when you're lazy about breaking two-type DR. Only have to feed it arrows of the appropriate metal type.

    Yes, I know it's Roadwatch, I don't care. It will always be the Roadhouse bow to me.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a-qreb8w0I
    Also, it looks cool
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  8. #8
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xoowak View Post
    Why compare to other suffixes, when you can have both? The new Mangling includes Superior Blood/Rib/Heart AND Phlebotomizing. Should be by far the best suffix against bleeding enemies.
    This. Phlebotomizing and Superior Heartseeker alone are competitive with Greater Bane as DPS suffixes. Put both of them together and you have the new holy grail of random lootgen.

    Even the lower tier version, Mauling (Hemmoraging + Greater Heartseeker), is competitive with Greater Everything Bane in general if on a good crit profile weapon.
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  9. #9
    Community Member Brennie's Avatar
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    The way this was implimented kind of annoys me. The swing is usefulness between Scims/rapiers/falchions/kukris and Longbows/Axes or handwraps is just... bleh.

    That said, I really like this effect. It is an absolutely huge boost to DPS for high crit range weapons, and pretty big on Kopeshes as well. I do agree that it is almost a complete waste on Roadwatch bow, though. Heck, the Absolute Law on that bow does more DPS than the superior heartseeker :/

    Can you imagine finding mauling on a Falchion/scim/rapier with any kind of decent prefix? That would be bananas!

    Also note - While critical multipliers won't increase the DPS on these weapons, crit EXPANDERS will! So Kensai III, Exaulted smites, Destiny effects and whatbhaveyou that increase crit range will increase the DPS offered by the suffixes. heck, Kensai 3 alone brings Pick average damage from 7.15 to 10.725

  10. #10
    Community Member DeafeningWhisper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brennie View Post
    The way this was implimented kind of annoys me. The swing is usefulness between Scims/rapiers/falchions/kukris and Longbows/Axes or handwraps is just... bleh.

    That said, I really like this effect. It is an absolutely huge boost to DPS for high crit range weapons, and pretty big on Kopeshes as well. I do agree that it is almost a complete waste on Roadwatch bow, though. Heck, the Absolute Law on that bow does more DPS than the superior heartseeker :/

    Can you imagine finding mauling on a Falchion/scim/rapier with any kind of decent prefix? That would be bananas!

    Also note - While critical multipliers won't increase the DPS on these weapons, crit EXPANDERS will! So Kensai III, Exaulted smites, Destiny effects and whatbhaveyou that increase crit range will increase the DPS offered by the suffixes. heck, Kensai 3 alone brings Pick average damage from 7.15 to 10.725
    Nice, I thought I wouldn't get the 11d10 per crit on my Kensai III AA, I mean with Overwhelming Crit I have a x5 on longbows.
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  11. #11
    Community Member Brennie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeafeningWhisper View Post
    Nice, I thought I wouldn't get the 11d10 per crit on my Kensai III AA, I mean with Overwhelming Crit I have a x5 on longbows.
    Are you talking about greater Heartseeker on a longbow? You should be locked in to 11d8 on any longbow (unless some named weapon with an inherently higher crit multiplier comes along, but thats neither here nor there).

    What i was saying is that since Kensai III expands your crit range, you will get more heartseeker hits in, raising your overall damage-per-attack from Heartseeker bows. In this instance, using a greater heartseeker longbow - Anyone else would be getting 4.95 damage per hit from greater heartseeker, but kensai III is giving you 7.425 damage per hit.

    You can see that even Kensai III doesn't even save this effect for Longbows. Not that it is terrible (its not Steam or Maiming, after all), but it's not particularly great either.

  12. #12
    Community Member DeafeningWhisper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brennie View Post
    Are you talking about greater Heartseeker on a longbow? You should be locked in to 11d8 on any longbow (unless some named weapon with an inherently higher crit multiplier comes along, but thats neither here nor there).

    What i was saying is that since Kensai III expands your crit range, you will get more heartseeker hits in, raising your overall damage-per-attack from Heartseeker bows. In this instance, using a greater heartseeker longbow - Anyone else would be getting 4.95 damage per hit from greater heartseeker, but kensai III is giving you 7.425 damage per hit.

    You can see that even Kensai III doesn't even save this effect for Longbows. Not that it is terrible (its not Steam or Maiming, after all), but it's not particularly great either.
    D'oh miss read, oh well still a cool looking bow.
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  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by aristarchus1000 View Post
    Greater Bane is still king, with 18 points of damage.
    I believe greater bane does slightly more than 14.5 per hit. (3d6, not 4d6, but factor in some extra for the +4 enhancement boost during crits.)

  14. #14
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I believe greater bane does slightly more than 14.5 per hit. (3d6, not 4d6, but factor in some extra for the +4 enhancement boost during crits.)
    14.5 plus some extra damage from the higher To-Hit and the higher crits. (IMO a point of To-Hit is worth a bit under 1 damage to TWF and around 1.5 damage to THF at the moment)
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  15. #15
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    @bane damage: haven't there been a thread posted here a while ago with tests, concluding that bane does only the xd6 extra damage, but the increased enhancement bonus to attack/damage does not actually work?

  16. #16
    Community Member Duke-H-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cru121 View Post
    @bane damage: haven't there been a thread posted here a while ago with tests, concluding that bane does only the xd6 extra damage, but the increased enhancement bonus to attack/damage does not actually work?
    That's an issue with handwraps and cannith crafting afaik.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I believe greater bane does slightly more than 14.5 per hit. (3d6, not 4d6, but factor in some extra for the +4 enhancement boost during crits.)
    I could have sworn that Greater banes were 4d6 +4 enhancement bonus, has this been changed recently? Maybe I'm getting old.

    I will correct it in the OP, thank you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aristarchus1000 View Post
    I could have sworn that Greater banes were 4d6 +4 enhancement bonus, has this been changed recently? Maybe I'm getting old.

    I will correct it in the OP, thank you.
    No, pretty sure it's always been 3d6. I only know this because in the early days of crafting I took someone to task for not knowing the facts in a weapon comparison, and then promptly attributed 4d6 to greater bane damage. They were very classy, pointing out that the "get your facts straight" guy (me) didn't have his facts straight in a funny way, but it still crushed me.

  19. #19
    Community Member Therrias's Avatar
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    Angry At least they tried this time

    When will the devs learn to scale critical effects properly? They must love those 18-20s.

    An effect that procs only on critical should have twice that effect on a x3 compared to a x2 and three times the effect on on a x4.

    There are no on-critical weapon abilities in P&P that do not scale to crit multiplier. This is called balance.

  20. #20
    Community Member Artos_Fabril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therrias View Post
    When will the devs learn to scale critical effects properly? They must love those 18-20s.

    An effect that procs only on critical should have twice that effect on a x3 compared to a x2 and three times the effect on on a x4.

    There are no on-critical weapon abilities in P&P that do not scale to crit multiplier. This is called balance.
    Could be something to do with the types of weapons that are favored in game. And Khopesh breaks things again, as just moving the die one step up for x3 weapons puts khopesh at 14.3/swing. Anything that makes it worthwhile on a greataxe, makes it crazy good on a khopesh. Anything that makes it worthwhile on a longsword, makes it great on a falchion/scimitar/rapier/kukri. And using the same numbers for each weapon type means anything that doesn't make falchion/rapier/scimitar/kukri OP is going to be garbage on maces/hammers/handwraps/staves.

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