Results 1 to 17 of 17
  1. #1
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    8

    Default Need help with a build

    I want to make a TWF Human 32 point Paladin, but I'm not sure where to even start. I want to keep it relatively pure, maybe splash Rogue or Fighter, but... I don't know. Please help.

  2. #2
    Community Member Stoner81's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    England
    Posts
    1,473

    Default

    http://ddowiki.com/page/Starting_a_Paladin <--- Have a read through that it should give you some ideas on your build

    Good luck!

    Stoner81.

  3. #3
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    12,797

    Default

    Junts' guide to pallies hasn't been updated in a while, but it's still the definite source for pally info. Builds here if you're impatient.

  4. #4
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    4,710

    Default

    Where I would start is what it means to be a paladin.

    1. You're not going to have the best melee DPS, even among non-rogues. Your DPS can still be very good, but it will never be the best comparing like to like.
    2. On the other hand, your melee self-healing ceiling is the highest of every melee, and you also have very good survivability elements available to you.

    These axioms inform your other choices. Consider your PrE:
    -KotC is incremental (and unreliable) DPS. Why chase after that? Your DPS will go from very good but not the best to... very good but not the best.
    -HotD takes point (2) above and cranks it, increasing self-healing and giving you an enormous survivability advantage in immunity to level drain.
    -DoS takes point (2) and derives party benefit from it by making you a tank. It is somewhat hampered by requiring a feat on a feat-starved class and the relatively small fraction of content where tanks are useful.

    Consider your race:
    -Half-orc is the KotC of races. A little more DPS, so what? You're still in the same zone.
    -By comparison, human further emphasizes your self-healing, gives you an extra feat and skill point, and even offers considerable and cheap DPS via Damage Boost. (Paladins are a lot more sensitive to expensive enhancements than other melees.)

    Consider splashing:
    -The capstone is pretty good, but in the end it's just DPS.
    -A 2 monk splash gives you Evasion, multiplying the benefit of your good saves, and moar feats.
    -A 2 fighter splash also gives you feats, but instead of Evasion you basically get Haste Boost, another considerable and cheap source of DPS.
    -A 2 rogue splash gives you Evasion and Haste Boost, but no feats. You also get the potential of trap skills, but it's very difficult to swing that on a paladin's 2 skill points per level. I would stick with monk or fighter if you want to splash, especially on a 32 pointer.
    -Anything deeper starts to compromise your spell slots, Cure Serious Wounds, and general paladin-ness.

    .

    The other unusual thing about paladins is that their best DPS ability functions off of crit range instead of overall crit profile. This along with the feat crunch makes scimitar a more compelling choice than usual next to khopesh. You'll still get more out of the khopesh, of course, but it won't be as big a gap as other melees.

  5. #5
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    8

    Default Ack!

    I keep trying to make a decent one in the DDO Character Generator, but I just can't do it! Ugh. I'm so lost right now.

  6. #6
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    12,797

    Default

    It's tough to balance the stats on a 32-pt TWF pally, because you need high STR (for obvious reasons), base DEX 17 (for TWF feats), decent CON (again, for obvious reasons), and ideally high base CHA so you can pick up as much Divine Might as possible (CHA 20 for DM4). Add to that the feat shortage and it's not an easy build to make.

  7. #7
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    8

    Default Yeah

    I mean, I can get +1 tomes at least, but +2 are way too expensive right now, so I could start with 16 dex, I know that much, but the rest... I don't know what the 'optimum' stats would be

  8. #8
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    12,797

    Default

    Here's an example of a TWF pally 18 / rog 2 build:
    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 20 Lawful Good Human Female
    (18 Paladin \ 2 Rogue) 
    Hit Points: 344
    Spell Points: 270 
    BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
    Fortitude: 19
    Reflex: 17
    Will: 10
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             16                    24
    Dexterity            15                    17
    Constitution         14                    16
    Intelligence          8                     8
    Wisdom                8                     8
    Charisma             15                    18
    
    Tomes Used
    +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11
    +1 Tome of Charisma used at level 12
    +2 Tome of Strength used at level 20
    +2 Tome of Constitution used at level 20
    +3 Tome of Charisma used at level 20
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                     Base Skills         Modified Skills
    Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
    Balance               6                    14
    Bluff                 2                     4
    Concentration         2                     3
    Diplomacy             2                     4
    Disable Device        3                     3
    Haggle                6                     8
    Heal                 -1                    -1
    Hide                  2                     3
    Intimidate            2                     4
    Jump                  6                    10
    Listen               -1                    -1
    Move Silently         2                     3
    Open Lock             6                     7
    Perform               n/a                   n/a
    Repair               -1                    -1
    Search                3                     3
    Spot                  3                     3
    Swim                  3                     7
    Tumble                3                     4
    Use Magic Device      6                    27
    
    Level 1 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness
    Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 2 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 3 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
    
    
    Level 4 (Paladin)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    
    Level 5 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 6 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Precision (swap for Power Attack before lvl 18)
    
    
    Level 7 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 8 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    
    Level 9 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 10 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 11 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 12 (Paladin)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 13 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 14 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 15 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 16 (Paladin)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    
    Level 17 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 18 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Cleave
    
    
    Level 19 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 20 (Paladin)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
    Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
    Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
    Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery III
    Enhancement: Human Versatility I
    Enhancement: Human Versatility II
    Enhancement: Human Versatility III
    Enhancement: Human Versatility IV
    Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
    Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good II
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II
    Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
    Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III
    Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice I
    Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice II
    Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice III
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
    Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I
    Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar II
    Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
    Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
    Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III
    Enhancement: Rogue Wand and Scroll Mastery I
    Epic feats: Great Cleave & Overwhelming Critical

    Rogue splash adds UMD (which boosts your self-sufficiency), Evasion (which boosts your survivability), and 1D6+3 sneak atk (which partially offsets the lost DPS from not having the capstone). Drawbacks inc. losing the capstone (useful for both extra DPS & DR-breaking) and having lower AC & PRR in light armor than med or heavy (if you wear the latter, you lose Evasion).

    I backloaded the tomes as much as I could, but you still need the +2 DEX for ITWF/GTWF, +1 CHA for Divine Might II, and +3 CHA for DM3.

    Besides Cleave/GC/OC, other feat options include: Quik+Max(+maybe Emp Heal) for more self-heals; Shield Mastery & ISM for tanking and to unlock DoS; or Extend for longer Zeal.

  9. #9
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    8

    Default

    What are the benefits of splashing Rogue over Fighter or Monk?

  10. #10
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    12,797

    Default

    Rogue 2 gets you UMD, Evasion, Haste Boost I (which will stack w/human Dmg Boost from Versatility), 1d6+3 SA, and W&S Mastery I (+30% from Cure wands & Heal scrolls - very handy for someone trying to be self-sufficient). Ftr 2 gets you 2 feats, Haste Boost I, +1 STR enh, and free tower shield prof (tho that only helps if you plan to S&B tank). Monk 2 gets you 2 feats, Evasion, +3 to all saves, and lets you use handwraps (if wearing robes), which are usually better than khopeshes when fighting crit-immune mobs (e.g., undead, constructs) due to the higher atk speed & full-STR offhand dmg.

    Overall I like monk splash best, but they all have their pros & cons; it all depends on what your final goals are.

  11. #11
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    8

    Default

    I'd probably splash Monk, then. Become God of the Saves. Hm. I think I might try to splash monk. Do you still get access to the monk stances when splashing?

  12. #12
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    12,797

    Default

    Access to monk stances & strikes requires being centered: i.e., no armor, no shield, no more than light encumbrance, and no non-ki weapons. So a khopesh-wielding monk / pally in light armor couldn't use stances (but would still benefit from Evasion); but one using handwraps & robes could.

  13. #13
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    8

    Default

    Hm. Well, food for thought. I wouldn't mind being centered for strength checks and such. I think I'll try splashing Monk, I just need to figure out how and when...


    Also, what's the difference between starting with 16 str 15 dex vs. 15 str 16 dex?
    Last edited by RamzaAion; 11-22-2012 at 06:13 PM.

  14. #14
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    12,797

    Default

    Well, apart from the fact most melee builds try to max out their STR as much as possible, Overwhelming Critical req's base STR 23: so base 16 + 5 lvl-ups + 2 tome = 23. Although in hindsight since my build doesn't take OC until lvl 24, base 15 + 6 lvl-ups + 2 tome would suffice too. Or you could start STR 16 DEX 15 and, if you really can't afford a + 2 DEX tome by then, put your lvl 12 stat pt into DEX and take a +1 DEX tome instead (base 15 + 1 lvl-up + 1 tome). But I've noticed since unbound +3 stat tomes became available, the Auction House prices for +2s has come down considerably. Because honestly, if you're flush with plat, why would you settle for a mere +2?

    Basically a lot of how we optimize a build depends on what resources you have available and what presumptions you make about gear etc. which will be acquired. One advantage to starting base DEX 16 is you can take a +1 tome at lvl 3, whereas +2s can't be taken until lvl 7; which means you could take ITWF sooner at lvl 6 if you specced your build properly.

  15. #15
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    8

    Default

    Are there any specific levels I should be taking Monk at? And any specific Monk bonus feats?

  16. #16
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    12,797

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RamzaAion View Post
    Are there any specific levels I should be taking Monk at? And any specific Monk bonus feats?
    In general, I would either front-load the monk lvls to get the extra feats, skill pts, & Evasion ASAP; or backload them to work on your pally lvls sooner.

    In your case, since it sounds like you don't want to rely on a +2 DEX tome, we could do something like this:
    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 20 Lawful Good Human Female
    (18 Paladin \ 2 Monk) 
    Hit Points: 343
    Spell Points: 230 
    BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
    Fortitude: 25
    Reflex: 20
    Will: 16
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             15                    23
    Dexterity            16                    17
    Constitution         14                    16
    Intelligence          8                     8
    Wisdom                8                     8
    Charisma             15                    18
    
    Tomes Used
    +1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 5
    +1 Tome of Charisma used at level 12
    +2 Tome of Strength used at level 20
    +2 Tome of Constitution used at level 20
    +3 Tome of Charisma used at level 20
    
    Level 1 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
    Feat: (Human Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 2 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 3 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery
    
    
    Level 4 (Paladin)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    
    Level 5 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 6 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 7 (Monk)
    Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness
    
    
    Level 8 (Monk)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack
    
    
    Level 9 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 10 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 11 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 12 (Paladin)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 13 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 14 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 15 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Mastery
    
    
    Level 16 (Paladin)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    
    Level 17 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 18 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Cleave
    
    
    Level 19 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 20 (Paladin)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
    Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
    Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
    Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery III
    Enhancement: Human Versatility I
    Enhancement: Human Versatility II
    Enhancement: Human Versatility III
    Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise I
    Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
    Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
    Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
    Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good III
    Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
    Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
    Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
    Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good III
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II
    Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
    Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III
    Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys I
    Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys II
    Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys III
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
    Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III
    epic feats: Great Cleave & Overwhelming Critical

    A lot like the build I originally posted, but I took advantage of the two extra feats to add Shield Mastery & ISM, so this build could go DoS and S&B tank. Alternatively, I could use them to add Quik+Max to focus on self-heals and switch from DoS to KotC, but I'd need to rearrange the build significantly (can't just swap SM for a metamagic because pallies can't cast spells before lvl 4).

  17. #17
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    In general, I would either front-load the monk lvls to get the extra feats, skill pts, & Evasion ASAP; or backload them to work on your pally lvls sooner.

    In your case, since it sounds like you don't want to rely on a +2 DEX tome, we could do something like this:
    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 20 Lawful Good Human Female
    (18 Paladin \ 2 Monk) 
    Hit Points: 343
    Spell Points: 230 
    BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
    Fortitude: 25
    Reflex: 20
    Will: 16
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             15                    23
    Dexterity            16                    17
    Constitution         14                    16
    Intelligence          8                     8
    Wisdom                8                     8
    Charisma             15                    18
    
    Tomes Used
    +1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 5
    +1 Tome of Charisma used at level 12
    +2 Tome of Strength used at level 20
    +2 Tome of Constitution used at level 20
    +3 Tome of Charisma used at level 20
    
    Level 1 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
    Feat: (Human Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 2 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 3 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery
    
    
    Level 4 (Paladin)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    
    Level 5 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 6 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 7 (Monk)
    Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness
    
    
    Level 8 (Monk)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack
    
    
    Level 9 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 10 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 11 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 12 (Paladin)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 13 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 14 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 15 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Mastery
    
    
    Level 16 (Paladin)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    
    Level 17 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 18 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Cleave
    
    
    Level 19 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 20 (Paladin)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
    Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
    Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
    Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery III
    Enhancement: Human Versatility I
    Enhancement: Human Versatility II
    Enhancement: Human Versatility III
    Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise I
    Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
    Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
    Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
    Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good III
    Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
    Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
    Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
    Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good III
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II
    Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
    Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III
    Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys I
    Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys II
    Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys III
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
    Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III
    epic feats: Great Cleave & Overwhelming Critical

    A lot like the build I originally posted, but I took advantage of the two extra feats to add Shield Mastery & ISM, so this build could go DoS and S&B tank. Alternatively, I could use them to add Quik+Max to focus on self-heals and switch from DoS to KotC, but I'd need to rearrange the build significantly (can't just swap SM for a metamagic because pallies can't cast spells before lvl 4).
    Alright, that seems pretty solid. I think I'll plug that in the Character Generator, and mess around with it a bit. Thank you for your help, you've been wonderful.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload