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Thread: Barbarian DR

  1. #1
    Community Member dirtphillips's Avatar
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    Default Barbarian DR

    Based on threads posted here on the inadequacies of barbarians, my previous experience in PnP, and my experience on my own and my wife’s barbarian toons I thought it might be productive to discuss if and how barbarian damage reduction should be changed. Currently, Barbarian DR scales in one point increments every three levels from DR1/- at level 2 to DR7/- at level 20. Enhancements can add up to another 3 points to this value.

    The elevated mob damage of DDO, when compared to PnP, means that the PnP derived DR values are not adequate for high heroic levels and is laughable in epics. Also, the DDO changes to uncanny dodge also means that barbarian and rogue’s PnP mitigation of sneak attack damage has largely been eliminated. I am aware that most mobs are of sufficient level to bypass the PnP uncanny dodge sneak attack defense (attacking rogue level is 4 higher than defender’s rogue/barb level). But this is a DDO problem of mob levels being far higher than in PnP. As a side note, I think the barbarian DR was laughable in PnP also, so DDO is taking a bad PnP mechanic and has exacerbated the problem.

    So, with that, what do you think is the correct level of DR at barbarian levels 5, 10, 15, 20, and 25?

    Should barbarian DR be shifted to a combination of DR and PRR?

    Should rage include additional DR or some PRR?

    Should uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge include some chance to avoid sneak attack damage or be a PRR of sorts against it?


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    I could see barbarian DR shift to a system similar to PRR, if not outright providing a bonus to it. I do not think that rage should provide any additional benefits to DR or PRR, as the concept of rage is that you are foregoing your defenses to hit things really, really hard. Last, uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge already provide a defense against sneak attack, as a dodged attack does no damage what so ever. The PnP versions of these abilities wouldn't translate very well into DDO, as they would be completely useless on anything harder than normal.

  3. #3
    The Hatchery
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    I think it should be Dr 10/- and +20 or so PRR. +2 PRR for every level of DR.

    Feels about right.

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    Hero Gkar's Avatar
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    I don't think rage should make you less likely to be hit, it is in fact designed the other way.

    I do agree that Barbarian (and WF while we are at it) DR was unfortunately not scaled up to be useful in DDO as it should have been. Either the values need to be increased substantially or it should be added in some way to PRR (that might actually be the most interesting approach)

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    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    I think there are some potential solutions that have been only explored to a minor extent so far. Right now, as the game progresses, mobs strike harder and harder to the point that 400 point hits aren't unheard of at end game. I'd like to see design explore a bit more toward having more hits come in at less damage each, thus making DR essentially multiplicatively as good without changing anything about the DR at all.

    You can see this to a small extent with shadows. The Desecrated Temple of Vol is the most obvious. They strike fast but for small chunks of damage. Any sort of numerical DR is very helpful for those encounters. PRR becomes more important as you receive larger single hits. Perhaps instead of 200 point hits in epic elite, forcing PRR as the only DR based reduction, we should be seeing some mobs tossing volleys of four 50 point hits instead. That 7 DR suddenly becomes an effective 28 DR compared to what it would have been. Against a mob unarmed monk for example, your 7 DR barbarian might be able to mitigate more overall damage than a 40 PRR dps fighter.
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    Community Member dirtphillips's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadereaper33 View Post
    I could see barbarian DR shift to a system similar to PRR, if not outright providing a bonus to it. I do not think that rage should provide any additional benefits to DR or PRR, as the concept of rage is that you are foregoing your defenses to hit things really, really hard. Last, uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge already provide a defense against sneak attack, as a dodged attack does no damage what so ever. The PnP versions of these abilities wouldn't translate very well into DDO, as they would be completely useless on anything harder than normal.
    Rage was mentioned as a place to improve it, since it seems sensible that a person in a fit of bloodlust for battle would not notice physical damage as much.

    What about this progression for DR/PRR?

    Lvl Total DR Total PRR
    2 1 2
    5 2 4
    8 4 6
    11 6 8
    14 8 10
    17 10 12
    20 15 15

    EDIT: (how do i format a table in here?)

    Add an Epic Feat called epic resilience: Req. Barb12 and CON 21
    Adds DR15 and PRR 15
    Last edited by dirtphillips; 11-20-2012 at 04:18 PM. Reason: not sure how to fix table
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  7. #7
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    in pnp, dr gained is a little off compared to DDO. dr/1 at 7th level and than +1 more every 3 levels for a total of dr/5 at 19. in epics they gain additional dr/1 at levels 22 and 25. there is also epic feats that can be chosen to increase dr/ by +3 and can be taken as often as you want, like toughness.

    imo, barbarian dr is pretty pointless with the incoming damage they take, wether its low levels or high. i think it needs to scale better. with that said, i wouldnt waste a feat for dr unless it actually mattered, like when players were trying to squeeze out every bit of ac.

    dr shouldnt not be increased while raging. when barbs rage, they become bloodthirsty and reckless. i think maybe something along the lines like fvs and dr they get at 20.

  8. #8
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    I think an important question is whether it should matter, or if barbarians are meant to fill pure DPS roles. A barbarian currently does more DPS than a paladin, but a paladin is significantly more durable than a barbarian, so in the balance that's pretty fair. It is aesthetically unpleasing to have useless abilities, true, but I feel a better outcome.
    Quote Originally Posted by dirtphillips
    Rage was mentioned as a place to improve it, since it seems sensible that a person in a fit of bloodlust for battle would not notice physical damage as much.
    I think the Con bonus implements this far better. You don't notice the damage, but you still take it, and when the rage wears off you [can] die from it. Additional DR would mean you don't take the damage, which is an implausible level of mind over matter.

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