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  1. #1
    Community Member Random20's Avatar
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    Default Help Fill 3 char slots - Viable for solo AND endgame

    This is a bit of a tall order, sorry.

    I'm a newb and I need build advice for 3 character slots on Ghallanda. I haven't joined a guild yet because I want to get my account in order first and I'm a moderately casual player.

    They all should be as solo friendly as possible while still being good for endgame epics. I don't mind if they're not perfect munchkins for endgame due to the ability to solo requirement so long as they get as close as possible to muchkinism to avoid being shunned in groups/guilds at endgame.

    An offensive caster, two handed fighting/trap/stealth character and a sword and board would be great. I'd prefer Human with 28 point versions listed if possible. Drow and Elf can also work. Maybe half-elf, but no Half-orc, Warforge, Dwarf or Halflings please.

    I don't have 32 point builds yet. My highest level character is a level 8 Bard that I use for dual box (well, dual window) favor farming.

    What I do have is:

    1 month of VIP
    Gianthold, Vale of Twilight, Devils of Shavarrath, Delara's Tomb - via TP purchases
    Drow - via favor unlock
    Hopefully Epic Destines before the sale is over (525/~800TP - almost there!)
    "Buying" Demon Sands after that next time it's on sale.

    Caster:

    I love using this Pale Master so far and he's level 7. The first time my acid blast caused 5 kobolds to evaporate in the butcher's patch I couldn't wipe the smile off my face. I think sorc's might be better for raw power, but I like the survivability of the PM.

    http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...66&postcount=7
    I'll probably stick with that for the caster slot and work toward
    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=302573
    unless someone has a better idea. I'm doing acid/cold instead of the recommendation though.

    Rogue:

    I have no idea what I'm doing here... Human strength build, dual kopesh, assassin epic destiny? Still useful/needed for traps at endgame?

    Melee:

    This thread about Paladin's was interesting.
    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=392655
    If this could be somehow combined with this
    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=391650
    but just not a Dwarf (no offence) I'd be happy.

    I've read that there's no real need for a dedicated tank type build but this will probably be the last of the three that I roll so maybe things will change by then... or maybe sword and board will get better...

    Please feel free to include links to existing builds that I may have missed in searching the forums, past life requirements, epic destinies and any additional adventure packs that would be required. I'd rather not buy monk if rogue can work for possible splashes but will bite the bullet if I have to.

    Thanks in advance for the responses!

  2. #2
    Community Member FuzzyDuck81's Avatar
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    For your rogue type character good possibilities are:

    -assassin rogue - either pure rogue, or maybe throw in 2 levels of fighter for the bonus feats.. don't necessarily need to go with khopeshes, as hints from the forthcoming enchantment changes look like they'll get some things to give significant boosts with daggers, kukris etc. (and one of the best rogue assassin weapons in the game is the epic Midnight Greetings kukri) They're certainly in demand in epics still, as they can handle traps (some of the ones in epic, especially those spellwards in MOTU are pretty nasty) but more importantly sneak well & instakill stuff, and in combat so long as they dont have aggro (yay bluff & diplo skills) they can get huge dps boosts from sneak attacks.

    -1rogue/1fighter/18ranger (search for "the exploiter", an old but still effective build) as they'll get a decent number of skillpoints to keep up the rogue skills, be effective in a fight & have a number of handy buff & some healing spells for self-sufficiency plus great bow capabilities when necessary too... a very versatile character & totally viable in epic groups. This could work as either the trapper requirement or a self-sufficient melee one

    - an old classic, 18wizard/2rogue (warforged works best IMO, though a fleshy pale master is good too), just take insightful reflexes & your evasion will work great & with the high int score you'll be able to keep trapping skills high without any problem.

    For an outright melee, my personal preference is a half elf light monk with the cleric dilly - very survivable, great fun to play, totally viable all the way through the level ranges & into epics... if you go high wisdom (need base plus tomes of minimum 23) when you get to epic levels you'll be able to take the vorpal strikes feat, and karate chop peoples heads off in addition to having abilities that are much harder to save against Pure fun, but can initially be tricky to get the hang of all the combos of hotkeys you'll need to really make the most of their skills - however once you get into them you might have trouble going back to a more "standard" melee who just hits stuff & only occasionally throws out a trip/stun/cleave

    Human or half elf paladin works well too, or for something a little different maybe a elf 18fighter/2rogue with the elven dragonmarks - self sufficiency on that would be trickier, however you'll be surprisingly hard to hurt in the 1st place... i'd say go with either light armour 2wf (would let you benefit from evasion) or heavy armour sword & board/2hf for more physical defence (take bastard swords then while in s&b mode you'd still get glancing blows to boost dps higher while keeping the solid defence), and the rogue levels would themselves mean you can take UMD as a class skill for wands, scrolls, etc.
    Last edited by FuzzyDuck81; 11-02-2012 at 03:29 AM.
    I don't mean to come across as unsympathetic - but I am, so I do.

  3. #3
    Community Member akash's Avatar
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    Welcome to forums, if you don't have a 32 point build, I would suggest not to roll a Paladin or Rouge because those are very stat depending classes and ideal after you TR at least twice (i.e. 36 point builds). Even 32 point builds face severe problem deciding about the stats on those classes. For first time melee players it's always safe to roll a barbarian or a fighter, and first time casters it's safe to roll a cleric or a wizard.

  4. #4
    Community Member Random20's Avatar
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    Thanks for the responses.

    As advised, I won't roll a rogue or paladin until I get 32 point Humans.

    What past lives would you recommend for a fighter, rogue and paladin though?

    Is there a link somewhere to the details for the Elf S + B fighter build?

  5. #5
    Community Member akash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Random20 View Post
    Thanks for the responses.

    As advised, I won't roll a rogue or paladin until I get 32 point Humans.

    What past lives would you recommend for a fighter, rogue and paladin though?

    Is there a link somewhere to the details for the Elf S + B fighter build?

    Paladin and Rouge are both melees, therefore Barbarian, Monk, and Fighter past life feats will greatly help their DPS and survivability. On the other hand if you are a type of gamer who will immediately TR after reaching 20 without farming epics and other end game contents, then feel free to start as a first life Paladin or Rouge and TR again to the same class until you get 3 stacking past life feats.

    It's true that epic destinies have solved most of the weaknesses of first life toons but still 36 point build is something that makes the difference.

    If you are planning S&B fighter, I suggest avoid drow, elf, halflings, and warforged. For an ideal s&b tank it's safe to go human, half elf, half orc, and dwarf. Here is a newbie friendly fighter build:

    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.01
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    First Life Like A Boss
    Level 20 True Neutral Human Male
    (20 Fighter) 
    Hit Points: 352
    Spell Points: 0 
    BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
    Fortitude: 15
    Reflex: 5
    Will: 5
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             16                    24
    Dexterity             8                     9
    Constitution         16                    17
    Intelligence         12                    13
    Wisdom                8                     9
    Charisma             12                    13
    
    Tomes Used
    +1 Tome of Strength used at level 1
    +1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 1
    +1 Tome of Constitution used at level 1
    +1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1
    +1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 1
    +1 Tome of Charisma used at level 1
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                     Base Skills         Modified Skills
    Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
    Balance               1                    10.5
    Bluff                 1                     1
    Concentration         3                     3
    Diplomacy             1                     1
    Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
    Haggle                1                     1
    Heal                 -1                    -1
    Hide                 -1                    -1
    Intimidate            5                    34
    Jump                  5                    28
    Listen               -1                    -1
    Move Silently        -1                    -1
    Open Lock            n/a                   n/a
    Perform               n/a                   n/a
    Repair                1                     1
    Search                1                     1
    Spot                 -1                    -1
    Swim                  3                     7
    Tumble                0                     0
    Use Magic Device      3                    12.5
    
    Level 1 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Cleave
    Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
    Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness
    
    
    Level 2 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Handed Fighting
    
    
    Level 3 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 4 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Great Cleave
    
    
    Level 5 (Fighter)
    
    
    Level 6 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 7 (Fighter)
    
    
    Level 8 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 9 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 10 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Stunning Blow
    
    
    Level 11 (Fighter)
    
    
    Level 12 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 13 (Fighter)
    
    
    Level 14 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Sunder
    
    
    Level 15 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery
    
    
    Level 16 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Superior Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 17 (Fighter)
    
    
    Level 18 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Mastery
    
    
    Level 19 (Fighter)
    
    
    Level 20 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Trip
    Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost I
    Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost II
    Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost III
    Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost IV
    Enhancement: Fighter Weapon Alacrity
    Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
    Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
    Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy III
    Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy IV
    Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender I
    Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender II
    Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender III
    Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) I
    Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) II
    Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) III
    Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Sunder) I
    Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Trip) I
    Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery III
    Enhancement: Human Versatility I
    Enhancement: Human Versatility II
    Enhancement: Human Versatility III
    Enhancement: Human Versatility IV
    Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense I
    Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense II
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    Enhancement: Improved Intimidate I
    Enhancement: Improved Intimidate II
    Enhancement: Improved Intimidate III
    Enhancement: Improved Intimidate IV
    Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
    Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
    Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
    Enhancement: Fighter Toughness III
    Please keep in mind that the build is made for 28 points, if you can start it 32 point build then you will be able to start with 13 DEX and accommodate dodge, mobility and spring attack feats instead of THF lines.

    I went THF lines till I hit level 16 because shields are nearly useless at lower level quests and there is nothing important you can tank in there. So, IMHO it's a much wiser decision to remain THF Kensai till level 15-19 and then change enhancements to a Stalwart tank. If needed you can exchange the greater THF feat with an exotic weapon feat at later levels (first feat exchange is free of cost).

    If you desire to farm epic destinies and level to 25, with this configuration you will be able to get Overwhelming Critical feat at level 21 and Improved Shield Bashing or any feat of your choice at level 24.

    About the skill points I used first 2 points in tumble and then maxed out UMD, Intimidate and Balance at all levels. Rest points are spend on Jump. However too much jump skill is really not needed for a STR based toon, so you can spend that wherever you want.

    The reason why I tried to get as much STR as I can manage is to increase the DC of 3 tactic feats. Stunning blow almost double your DPS, improved trip ground an enemy for 1 min, and improved sunder is very important for boss fights.

    As you can see there are two modes of playing this fighter i.e. Kensai III THF DPS with power attack on and Stalwart Defender III tank with Combat Expertise on, any first lifer will be able to get enough exposure about melee fightings by playing this build.

  6. #6
    Community Member Random20's Avatar
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    Thanks for your patience and detailed information.

    If you hadn't disabled rep I'd have +1d you.

  7. #7
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    Solo *and* endgame?

    You want casters. Casters and pretty much only casters.

    Your palemaster certainly is a good way to go. I'd prefer an elf (especially in endgame for the extra spell penetration), but you can't go wrong with a human (in almost any build).

    [Human] Sorcerers are pretty good at this, warforged are much better. Fleshy sorcerers need healing until they can UMD heal scrolls.

    Clerics might work, but I've heard of plenty of great cleric players giving them up after a recent nerf. Understand that clerics are held accountable for everything and don't try grouping without some pretty thick skin.

    Rogue: you have the basics, but expect to do a great deal of research before you build a rogue. You have to know that going in, the devs love to nerf rogues (sometimes deliberately, often not caring what happens to rogues when they nerf something like crits). Also, rogues tend to give up half their abilities unless they are in an understanding (and typically static) group: solo you might be able to get (some) sneak attacks with a melee hireling (you get to heal both of you, and don't expect the hireling to have hate gear), and in a PUG you can't expect to do much sneaking as they zerg down the dungeon.

    PS. I don't think that 28 point, human, and strength based can be mixed for a workable rogue. I prefer strength based rogues (the epic destiny might change this), but only because I think you should build to cover the hard parts of the quest (which is 100% fort mobs for rogues). In a party, there is a small difference between strength and dex rogues and something has to go. Start with the dex needed for GTWF on Ron's builder and see where you go.

    Melee: TWF is pretty much dead (unless you are a rogue, where it is mandatory), or at least far inferior to THF and gives nothing in return. Somebody mentioned rangers (and exploiters in particular). Last I checked, exploiters were dead (and you don't have the monk class to make one). Also, the epic destiny for rangers is for bow-users only, you would either take the barbarian destiny (built for THF) or find a means to get a fighter or rogue destiny. That said, melee rangers are particularly good in small parties (they cover plenty of roles). My vague plans for a ranger consist of 1 level of rogue (highly recommended for all melee rangers) 13 levels of ranger, 6 levels of fighter (4 if you don't want the fighter destiny). Race would either be human or dwarf (largely for dwarven axes and epic toughness requirements). Finally, depending on how casual you are (and how much you would rather play a palemaster who fits all your requirements) you can hope for a major change in rangers next year with a possible enhancement update (don't hold your breath: rangers have been steadily nerfed since 2009, and nerfed hard after allredy being underpowered). There is no telling if a current build now (such as a 1/13/6) might be gimpy compared to a tempest III (18 levels) ranger.

    Paladin: I'm not sure a pally has the DPS to solo. You would need to use THF nearly all the time and only go S&B during tough party fights where you wanted to tank. Don't expect great healing abilities either, as you slowly whittle mobs hp down. Pallys are getting better, but they are still down in the dumps with rangers as the "heavily nerfed classes". Note while TWF pally was one of the few workable drow builds, I think it has been nerfed (smite & sacrifice don't dual proc). I find rangers fun, I'm not so sure about paladin fun (disclosure: my [somewhat shelved] main is an exploiter ranger, while I have been known to play TWF drow paladins in permadeath).

    You might try to combine your non-casters into a single 13 ranger/7 rogue build. While DDO is a game for specialists (note that "specialist classes" = jack of all trades, master of none), generalists are good in small/solo parties. This build would give you your strength rogue (needing no more than 13 dex for GTWF (and IPS)), strong TWF, rogue destiny for your ranger. It also takes less time to level up two characters than 3. I think this would be viable in endgame, but I'd ask around the boards to see how much assassination is needed in endgame (my rogue is ignored and level 10 or so).

    Followup: After reading the thread a little more carefully, I think your plan to wait on the 32 point builds will give you more time with your caster, better ability to twink toons that won't be nearly as strong as your caster, and a chance to let turbine make whatever changes they are going to do before starting your characters (it takes much less time to level toons in dungeons you already have explored). Still, I think a human 13/7 ranger will work, even at 28 points (note: creating such a build has some agonizing choices. To maximize skills you need to space out rogue levels as you advance (and avoid wasting ranger points on rogue skills). On the other hand, all your TWF feats are dependent on ranger level (you want 12th level as fast as possible)) Don't expect to find a build on the forums that you can blindly use, just know exactly which feats you need and figure out how much you really want all those skills.
    Last edited by yawumpus; 11-02-2012 at 01:33 PM.

  8. #8
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    Default Example ranger/rogue (28 point build)

    Basic 13/7 ranger/rogue

    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Hralgar mark 2
    Level 20 True Neutral Human Male
    (7 Rogue \ 13 Ranger) 
    Hit Points: 278
    Spell Points: 155 
    BAB: 18\18\23\28\28
    Fortitude: 13
    Reflex: 16
    Will: 5
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             16                    22
    Dexterity            14                    16
    Constitution         16                    17
    Intelligence         10                    10
    Wisdom                8                     8
    Charisma              8                     8
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                     Base Skills         Modified Skills
    Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
    Balance               6                     7
    Bluff                -1                     1
    Concentration         3                    21
    Diplomacy            -1                    -1
    Disable Device        4                    23
    Haggle               -1                    -1
    Heal                 -1                    -1
    Hide                  6                    24
    Intimidate           -1                    -1
    Jump                  6                    21
    Listen               -1                    -1
    Move Silently         6                    24
    Open Lock             6                    18
    Perform              n/a                   n/a
    Repair                0                     0
    Search                4                    23
    Spot                  3                    22
    Swim                  3                     6
    Tumble                3                     4
    Use Magic Device      3                    22
    
    Level 1 (Rogue)
    Skill: Balance (+4)
    Skill: Disable Device (+4)
    Skill: Hide (+4)
    Skill: Jump (+3)
    Skill: Move Silently (+4)
    Skill: Open Lock (+4)
    Skill: Search (+4)
    Skill: Spot (+4)
    Skill: Tumble (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
    Feat: (Selected) Dodge
    Feat: (Human Bonus) Mobility
    
    
    Level 2 (Ranger)
    Skill: Concentration (+4)
    Skill: Move Silently (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Giant
    
    
    Level 3 (Ranger)
    Skill: Concentration (+2)
    Skill: Hide (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+1)
    Skill: Move Silently (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
    
    
    Level 4 (Ranger)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Hide (+2)
    Skill: Jump (+1)
    Skill: Move Silently (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    
    
    Level 5 (Ranger)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Hide (+1)
    Skill: Move Silently (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    
    
    Level 6 (Ranger)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Hide (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+2)
    Skill: Move Silently (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Elemental
    Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack
    
    
    Level 7 (Ranger)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Hide (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+2)
    Skill: Move Silently (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    
    
    Level 8 (Rogue)
    Skill: Disable Device (+6)
    Skill: Open Lock (+3)
    
    
    Level 9 (Ranger)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Move Silently (+2)
    Skill: Search (+2)
    Skill: Spot (+2)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 10 (Ranger)
    Skill: Concentration (+2)
    Skill: Hide (+2)
    Skill: Move Silently (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    
    
    Level 11 (Ranger)
    Skill: Hide (+2)
    Skill: Jump (+2)
    Skill: Move Silently (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    
    
    Level 12 (Ranger)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Hide (+1)
    Skill: Move Silently (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    
    
    Level 13 (Ranger)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Hide (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+2)
    Skill: Move Silently (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    
    
    Level 14 (Ranger)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Hide (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+2)
    Skill: Move Silently (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    
    
    Level 15 (Rogue)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+8)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons
    
    
    Level 16 (Rogue)
    Skill: Disable Device (+2)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+7)
    
    
    Level 17 (Rogue)
    Skill: Disable Device (+5)
    Skill: Search (+3)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 18 (Ranger)
    Skill: Concentration (+2)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+4)
    Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
    
    
    Level 19 (Rogue)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Open Lock (+4)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
    
    
    Level 20 (Rogue)
    Skill: Disable Device (+2)
    Skill: Open Lock (+4)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
    Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
    Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
    Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
    Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III
    Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I
    Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
    Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Constitution I
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
    Enhancement: Human Versatility I
    Enhancement: Human Versatility II
    Enhancement: Human Versatility III
    Enhancement: Human Versatility IV
    Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
    Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage I
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage II
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage III
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage IV
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Resistance I
    Enhancement: Ranger Tempest I
    Enhancement: Ranger Tempest II
    Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
    Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
    Enhancement: Improved Hide I
    Enhancement: Improved Hide II
    Enhancement: Improved Move Silently I
    Enhancement: Improved Move Silently II
    Enhancement: Ranger Devotion I
    Enhancement: Ranger Devotion II
    Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I
    Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity II
    Enhancement: Rogue Wand and Scroll Mastery I
    Purpose:
    This build works on the strengths you appear to want in your non-casters. 28 point rogues are squishy (and lack DPS when solo or otherwise can't get in sneak attacks). Rangers lack DPS (especially in endgame) and have extremely limited skills (without burning too many stats in int or going this route with lots or rogue levels).

    Various options:

    This build has 16 str/16 con/10 int (13 dex is required for tempest). You could easily take 18 str/14 con/8 int. Experienced ranger builders/players take even less dex, buy +2 tomes at level 7 and finagle dodge/mobility/spring attack after level 7. I'd avoid this as you need 13 dex to even start the chain and both tempest 1 and 2 are good to take reasonably early for new players. If your caster can provide a +2 int tome at level 7, that should help out in the skill department (int tomes are the only ones that matter when you take them since they won't give skill points retroactively). Also note that you will need a +3 item to even cast first level spells (at fifth level), plan for that before starting this build (lose the spell and using wands might be cheaper). Check the price of +1 tomes before trying to get there with single item).

    Feats taken are standard ranger options + ranged critical (a tempest should never forget he has a bow), empowered healing (not so sure with only cure moderate due to 13 levels of ranger, also many players prefer maximize: kill all your spell points but hopefully survive the next blow). Not sure about epic feats, would likely manage epic toughness via TR stats and dwarf. Overwhelming crit would work reasonably well with kopeshes (and dwarven axe), but far too expensive. Note the lack of OTWF: I'm pretty sure my ranger needed it (most rangers take it for tempestIII not an issue in this build), but have no idea how rangers hit in this post d20 era (the rules changed a lot after the expansion and I took a break then). Might push this way up and take one of the others at epic.

    Skills could easily be done better (my exploiter doesn't seem to mind lack of concentration). The point is that by mixing ranger and rogue levels, a ranger with the brains of an orc barbarian can have all the skills he needs. I included the per-level skill choices for that reason. Note that at level 13 and 14 (right after you get GTWF and IPS) I switched to rogue and put nearly all skill points into UMD. UMD might be the best skill in the game, but it really doesn't get you anything until it is nearly maxed (although some race restricted items are useful at low level), so I was able to let them slide until them. Disable device takes a beating while leveling ranger (have your caster buy +5 tools and reasonably current items. Remember this build is much dumber than most rogues and doesn't get the int bonuses you might expect, but this only really matters on elite). Other players would probably put more points in balance. I changed course in mid-stream with jump (ranger level 1 spells include ram's might (always taken), clw (not useful without echos but required until ranger 8 or so), resist energy (nerfed by guild resists, don't forget them in the shroud), and longstrider (something I should probably take). If you don't plan on loading the jump spell, I'd max the skill (if you didn't know, jump is hard limited to 40. My sorcerer can hit 40 with zero point in jump and the jump spell, high-strength rangers have even less issue.

    Enhancements: I don't recommend following enhancements on any build, just reset them every few levels or so. A build should check to see that all required enhancements fit, and I think I cover it with tempest II, assassin I, and greater CON+racial toughness III. I don't recommend assassin 1 at all (take it when you take assassin II on a rogue), and you are likely to find something better than racial toughness III, but it is good to know they both fit.
    Last edited by yawumpus; 11-02-2012 at 03:39 PM. Reason: Ron's output now in color (try 2)

  9. #9
    Community Member squishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Random20 View Post
    Thanks for the responses.

    As advised, I won't roll a rogue or paladin until I get 32 point Humans.

    What past lives would you recommend for a fighter, rogue and paladin though?

    Is there a link somewhere to the details for the Elf S + B fighter build?
    Uhhhh...disagree with the 28-point rogue advice. Paladin, yeah, that's a tough one to play because they depend on a lot of stats. But the rogue? Rogue is mostly gear.

    I've got a 28-point Assassin halfling rogue (yeah, I know you don't want a halfling) who does well soloing, and decent in groups all the way up to, and including epic hard. I don't have *any* epic gear, although I was able to accumulate lots of named stuff along the way.

    Starting out, he'll be a little rough. Once you get assassinate, however, you job soloing gets much easier. With decent Bluff, Hide, and Sneak skills you can pull mobs one at a time, kill them, and do most of adventure that way.

    As for trapping? You don't need to go full Mechanic for that. My rogue gave a lot of that up, but I sill put points into Disable Device, Open Lock, Spot, and Search. I'm able to do virtually all the traps on Epic Hard without difficulty. You just have to acquire the right gear, and make sure you allocate some skill points into trapping.

    Furthermore, putting points into UMD, along with maybe some points in CHR at start, and a CHR device like a cloak, and you can do a lot of efficient self-healing, self-buffing, and even use a Raise Dead scroll with some proficiency. At cap, he's one of the toons that is much easier to solo.

    I used the basic layout advice for points provided by the DDOWiki. This is my first rogue toon ever, and I was surprised at just how easy it was to learn with, and figure out. Once you learn how to bluff for backstabs, or use bluff to pull a mob away from a group, and kill them without getting everything aggro-ed on you, soloing becomes much, much easier.

    I've also seen 28-point Thief Acrobats make a fully-raged and geared barb look inconsequential.

    If the case that a rogue is feat constraiend, and the best way of making one is 32 point builds, then you might as well apply that to any class. For a wizzy, Dex is as important as Intelligence, as is Charisma, as is Constitution. CON provides HP, CHR enhances UMD, DEX helps AC (espceially if that wizzy is wearing nothing but robes), and INT provides spell pen and SP. So there you are: feat constrained. The same can be said of any fighter or barb.

    So I repectfully disagree.

    You do what you like - and I mean that. If you find the class tedious, or don't like running them, no matter how easy they are to play (as some may claim), you'll probably suck at them. That's because your heart is not really into running them. I mean, I tried my hand at a Cleric. I did it on the recommendation that they are one of the most "survivable" classes. Frankly speaking, it just wasn't my cup 'o tea. I couldn't put a finger as to why I didn't like them, but it just wasn't for me.

    I got a fighter and a pally that I run. Yes, from experience, the pally is hard to run for a first-time player. The fighter is fun to pull out every now and again, but I have a real affinity for my rogue and wizzies. I like to play them...a lot. So, I do fairly well at them, or at least I think so.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that you can be successful with virtually *any* class in this game with a 28-point build even into epic hard if you know how to play to their strengths, and isolate their weaknesses. The only way you'll be able to do that is if you like the character you're playing from the outset.
    Last edited by squishwizzy; 11-02-2012 at 04:03 PM.
    Antipan, Pandargon, Pandolin, Panifin, Panmorgan, Pangrael, and all other things "pan-ed"...

  10. #10
    Community Member akash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squishwizzy View Post
    If the case that a rogue is feat constraiend, and the best way of making one is 32 point builds, then you might as well apply that to any class. For a wizzy, Dex is as important as Intelligence, as is Charisma, as is Constitution. CON provides HP, CHR enhances UMD, DEX helps AC (espceially if that wizzy is wearing nothing but robes), and INT provides spell pen and SP. So there you are: feat constrained. The same can be said of any fighter or barb.
    Greetings, the reason why I suggested the OP not to play rouge or paladin as first life toons is because those are hard to fit in 28 points build. Why? It's because a successful pally need to spend in all areas. Same goes for a rouge, it's impossible to be a good self sufficient, uber DPS, high assassinate DC, and a great trap monkey at first life you have to sacrifice in some areas. You don't have to believe me, just TR your 28 point rouge and see the difference yourself. Only exception is Drows, because they are not really 28 points but technically more than that. Yes rouges are item heavy, and not just item heavy they require extra bit of attention, new items every 2 levels till a rouge hits level 15. How a new player will manage to get all those items? Without proper items when a rouge will blow up the box all PUG fingers will be pointed towards the rouge.

    On the other hand Wizard, Sorcerer, Barbarians they only need to focus on two stats and are free to dump all other stats. e.g. DEX and WIS are the first two stats which are completely dumped by almost all successful wizards. You only need to max out INT and CON and rest (if any) in STR/CHA, you can even dump STR/CHA too. AC is totally meaningless for wizards and barbarians since no matter what you do you will never be able to raise high enough AC, even if you do you have to sacrifice your casting power (for wizards) or DPS (for Barbarians). The only real reason why people choose DEX is to get qualify for TWF, improving ranged combat, and increase Reflex saves (which is not a problem for wizards because of insightful reflex).

  11. #11
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    For a human caster, PM all the way. Acid/cold will serve you well.

    Your rogue concept is also fine, just don't go too far overboard on the Str in Str-base on a 28 pointer. Maybe something like 14/15/14/8/14/10. More build points would be better, but between power creep in gear, melee past lives being mechanically worthless for the cost, and the incredible softening of the to-hit formula, I wouldn't worry about doing a rogue first life. There's a lot of questing where you don't need traps to be disarmed, but 15% is 15%. Rogues are very challenging to solo with because so much of your damage is sneak, but no amount of build points changes that. Your best bet might end up being a Black Lotus type: 19 rog / 1 mnk.

    One thing with sword and board is that you can go DPS mode with a THF weapon, especially as a paladin with a falchion. Another thing is that tanks are generally built for use in raids, which in turn means for use with a dedicated healer. You wouldn't take Maximize on a tank build, but from a self-sufficiency (soloing) standpoint Maximize is incredible, especially since it's so much less gear dependent than damage mitigation (still) is. The "longsword and shield" look is classic and compelling, but it's just rubbish mechanically, and you'll feel it pretty quickly.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by squishwizzy View Post
    Uhhhh...disagree with the 28-point rogue advice. Paladin, yeah, that's a tough one to play because they depend on a lot of stats. But the rogue? Rogue is mostly gear.

    I've got a 28-point Assassin halfling rogue (yeah, I know you don't want a halfling) who does well soloing, and decent in groups all the way up to, and including epic hard. I don't have *any* epic gear, although I was able to accumulate lots of named stuff along the way.
    The suggested build was 28 point-human-strength build (with khopeshes). A lot depends here on whether or not his caster can supply a +2 tome. I wasn't counting on it (it used to be much harder to grind plat and +2 tomes were more valuable) but it is pretty likely he can (I'd be sure before leaving for Korthos). With a +2 tome a human can be:

    Str: 15 Dex: 15 Con: 14 Int: 14 Wis: 8 Chr: 8

    With only a +1 tome, you would likely go drow: Str: 16 Dex: 16 Con: 12 Int 16 Wis: 8 Chr: 10 (important note: the human will likely increase strength and constitution, while the drow will increase only dexterity. In general, the human has better enhancements all around).

    Contrast that to the ranger/rogue above:
    Str: 18 Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 8 Wis: 8 Chr: 8 OR
    Str: 16 Dex: 14 Con: 16 Int: 10 Wis: 8 Chr: 8 (used in build)

    The values are pretty low, but not terrible. One catch is that they don't take into account the lack of BAB a rogue has, that a finesse rogue makes up through high dex tohit. Obviously, some high quality gear is needed. Also, soloing is going to be nasty, especially when you are used to a pale master. Thus the ranger/rogue listed above: it gets BAB from ranger levels and strength stats, a bit more hit points from being a mostly a ranger, self healing and buffing through spells (and no UMD checks on wands, can UMD heal scrolls as well as a rogue). Does typical ranger damage when soloing or otherwise not sneak attacking (might want to make undead a favored enemy) but will still be able to deliver 4d6+9 sneak attack damage (5d6+9 as listed with assassinI) in a boss beatdown (before fortification issues, same as rogues).

    The catch is that the original poster has two characters level 8&7. If you are going to argue the wonderfullness of 28 point rogues, you ought to at least include an explanation of why you absolutely need a dexterity of 17 by level 9 (ITWF) and how to get it. Also some plan for soloing would be appreciated, it is one thing to get sneak attacks left and right through a pair of rad2 rapiers (huge grind, but I think level 18+ characters can obtain similar things in House C nowadays), but it is another thing to do so in a first life.

  13. #13
    Community Member Random20's Avatar
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    Lots of useful posts here. DDO has a much lower idiot ratio than most mmo's that I've played. Wow! (no pun intended).

    In terms of playstyle I've done mmo's and some tabletop and don't mind any role other than healing. Too much drama with healing. So, fun for me is anything that doesn't involve healing another player.

    I've leveled a THF Human paladin to 7 for Drow unlock. Early levels don't really mean anything, but it actually felt a bit powerful. The Human pally seemed to race through the levels. However, with a lot of effort, I only managed to get a TWF Drow paladin to level 6.85... and then abandoned it...

    The Drow seemed so much squishier and even weaker with the damage dealing, largely because I guess I didn't have enough of the TWF feats yet but, honestly, levelling my Wizard as melee until level 6 felt better.

    I'm shying away from pallies and will go with the S&B fighter posted by Akash earlier. Hopefully it'll be tougher (less squishy) than the THF and TWF pallies but do less but still ok damage (which I don't mind, once it's not squishy). Now that I have a base to work with I'll compare it with the Axehead Dwarf fighter build I linked earlier and may come back with some questions. That Axehead is supposed to do good damage despite being S&B. I think it matures into that though, it's not frontloaded and uses THF in the beginning - like I was supposed to do with the 2WF Pally but didn't...

    Just for clarification:

    SLOT1: Ranged Magic Damage - PM
    SLOT2: 2WF/Traps/Stealth - squisher but great melee damage
    SLOT3: S&B - less damage than above but still ok damage and very, very tanky
    SLOT4: Rotating deleted lowbie for favor farming
    SLOT5: Will be a 2HF Melee, but not worried about this yet, haven't even bought the slot yet.

    I'll be here for a while.

    Edit: I've been lucky with some drops/sales of feather falling stuff but I can't afford more than one or two +2 tomes. On the one hand, I'd like to rush to 32 point build unlock with my palemaster, on the other, having alts to play is fun too...
    Last edited by Random20; 11-02-2012 at 07:37 PM.

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    Why not run one character to 1750 to unlock 32 point builds before rolling any other characters?

    The easiest time for you to do this is during your 1 month VIP, for two reasons: you'll have access to a bunch of low level quests that your level 7 wizard can blow through quickly (Catacombs, STK, Sharn, Tangleroot, Carnival, Necropolis, etc), and it will be the only time you can open hard or elite on your first run before you TR. Hard or elite openers tend to be very popular people, so if you're a useful class and can open harder difficulties, your LFMs should fill reasonably quickly.

    Depending on the quest, you can try to limit your over-level penalty to 10-25%. There are some quests that are more difficult and time consuming, such as Proof is in the Poison, the Pit, Taming the Flames and a few others. You may want to skip them during your favor grind unless you can find a guide. Doing it this way will get you enough XP to carry you a good part of the way to 1750 favor and perhaps level 14 by the end of the month, depending on your play time.

    If you do this, I'd recommend that you save running Gianthold and Vale until after your VIP runs out. You have already have bought them (can get that favor later), and you will want to save that XP for levels 15-20. Also, skip as many F2P quests as possible during the next month, since you can always run them for favor after your VIP expires.

    Apart from that, a former guildmate developed this build, and leveled it using his 28 point F2P account on several servers: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=292718 - you may want to consider something like this for your second slot. It's a solid build - I have an arcane archer variant up to level 12 or so, but I also had 32 point builds and plenty of twink gear, so it plays differently.

  15. #15
    Community Member Jingwei's Avatar
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    Another thing to think about doing is to farm up easy to get gear from packs you won't have once your month of VIP expires.

    examples:
    full set of abashai gear from the Chronoscope
    Stormsinger cloak from assault on summerfield
    Crafting marks from the attack on stormreach chain, in case you want an upgraded sora kell set later)
    A mantle of the worldshaper from ruins of threnal
    a twisted talisman from the last stand
    ML4 bracers of the wind (cannith challenges)

  16. #16
    Community Member Random20's Avatar
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    Cool. Makes sense. I'll join Mabar next year and do the quests I won't have when VIP runs out and see how much gear/favor I can get. The keys and items shouldn't disappear, right? Then again, even if they do, it's 2 items on one character (cloak and robe was what I was aiming for, which I won't even be able to upgrade for a while) vs... all of that.

    28 days or so of VIP left.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Random20 View Post
    Cool. Makes sense. I'll join Mabar next year and do the quests I won't have when VIP runs out and see how much gear/favor I can get. The keys and items shouldn't disappear, right? Then again, even if they do, it's 2 items on one character (cloak and robe was what I was aiming for, which I won't even be able to upgrade for a while) vs... all of that.

    28 days or so of VIP left.
    The level 12-16 cloak and robe might be handy for leveling. While you won't still be using those versions at 20, you're a long ways away, especially if you plan to run several alts. That is not too many motes and dragon runs, and apart from a brief return at the end of Nov 2012, Mabar probably won't be back until late 2013.

    One thing about your plan to buy epic destinies right away - why? Until you buy the full MoTU expansion or a bunch of other epic packs, you're not going to be getting much XP past 20 anyways. If you're not averse to spending money, your best bang for the buck in DDO is the $50 MoTU pack for $25 if they have another 50% off sale this year. It includes a ton of content, including all of MoTU, epic destinies, 1000 TP, druid, and 4 other content packs.

  18. #18
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    My advice: Work on one character and earn 1750 favor on them to unlock 32 point builds. A Pale Master is a good option as they don't really lose much by being 28 points (for most people it's just 25hp and 1 Fort save at level cap).

    Definitely make use of your VIP time to run low-level quests on Elite for the favor too. Once your VIP drops, you can only enter a quest on Elite if you've already completed Hard or a party member meets one of the criteria to start it.
    I don't have a zerging problem.

    I'm zerging. That's YOUR problem.

  19. #19
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yawumpus View Post
    The suggested build was 28 point-human-strength build (with khopeshes). A lot depends here on whether or not his caster can supply a +2 tome. I wasn't counting on it (it used to be much harder to grind plat and +2 tomes were more valuable) but it is pretty likely he can (I'd be sure before leaving for Korthos). With a +2 tome a human can be:

    Str: 15 Dex: 15 Con: 14 Int: 14 Wis: 8 Chr: 8

    With only a +1 tome, you would likely go drow: Str: 16 Dex: 16 Con: 12 Int 16 Wis: 8 Chr: 10 (important note: the human will likely increase strength and constitution, while the drow will increase only dexterity. In general, the human has better enhancements all around).

    Contrast that to the ranger/rogue above:
    Str: 18 Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 8 Wis: 8 Chr: 8 OR
    Str: 16 Dex: 14 Con: 16 Int: 10 Wis: 8 Chr: 8 (used in build)
    You don't need a tome, though, you can just throw a level-up or two into Dex. The new to-hit formula is very forgiving.
    Quote Originally Posted by Random20
    I'm shying away from pallies and will go with the S&B fighter posted by Akash earlier. Hopefully it'll be tougher (less squishy) than the THF and TWF pallies but do less but still ok damage (which I don't mind, once it's not squishy).
    I fear you will be very disappointed. A shield by itself only gives you AC (and not much of it at that), and AC isn't a short road to non-squishiness. If you start spending feats you'll get tiny bits of PRR, same story there. Paladins (even shieldless) are really a lot easier to make self-sufficient because they have extremely strong self-healing capabilities between Lay on Hands and Cure Serious Wounds. A fighter has nothing but superior DPS.

    I haven't played other MMOs so I don't know what it's like there, but here a tank is not based on self-sufficiency. It's based on reducing group healing strain: holding aggro, being easier to heal. If you want to solo and your tank has no self-healing, the second quality is meaningless. If you're soloing in the first place the first quality is automatically meaningless. I very strongly urge you to build a straight up THF paladin with Maximize for this slot, it will give you what you want...

    Human (of course)
    16 Str
    8 Dex
    14 Con
    14 Wis
    8 Int
    14 Cha
    (Alternatively, you could go 14 Str 10 Int 10 Dex or 14 Str 12 Int, but I think you'll be happiest with the first version. If you do go the other ways, you have to reorder feats, including putting your open slot at 3 instead of 18, and Carthage must be destroyed.)

    Feats
    THF & Toughness
    Power Attack
    Maximize
    Improved Critical: Slashing
    Improved THF
    Greater THF
    Open slot: By this point you will have a much better idea of the game anyway and can make your own call. I would go Improved Sunder, an alternative would be to start the Cleave chain with your eye on the epic feat Overwhelming Critical.

    Enhancements
    1. Hunter of the Dead - this is a Prestige Enhancement that is the best thing ever for soloing: more heal amp, ***immunity to level drain***, a couple other tangential goodies. Like all PrEs requires a couple garbage enhancements, in this case Extra and Improved Turning 3.
    2. Paladin Extra Smite Evil 2 - this unlocks Exalted Smite (which is pretty sweet) and Divine Sacrifice (which is your bread, butter, ham, egg, cheese, and plenty of other foodstuffs).
    3. Human Improved Recovery 3 and Devotion A-Lot (I like 4, but 2 is plenty) - this further soups up your self-healing ability. Again, this is a big distinction between tanks and soloists. If you want to be non-squishy, you want to self-heal. This is very very different from tanking.
    4. Human Versatility As-Much-As-You-Can-Get - because killing things is fun, and Damage Boost makes you better at it.
    5. Others - Devotion 2 unlocks Redemption, a Raise Dead ability, so why not? Extra Lay on Hands because LoH are good. Divine Righteousness doubles your threat, which will really be plenty if you ever want to actually tank. You also need a religion to take HotD, and the more heals the merrier, so Sovereign Host is the one for you.

    .

    The other thing to keep in mind with a true tank is how small the proportion of DDO content is that asks for one: it's really only some mid to high level raids. What happens when an MotU comes along and trivializes a lot of that raid gear? The use (and demand) for a true tank decreases even further.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    You don't need a tome, though, you can just throw a level-up or two into Dex. The new to-hit formula is very forgiving
    Your strength is low enough without losing levelups. +1 tomes are cheap; at least use one of them.
    [deletia]
    Human (of course)
    16 Str
    8 Dex
    14 Con
    14 Wis
    8 Int
    14 Cha
    [more deletia]
    This is all well and good, but why not follow the much better advice above and unlock 32-point builds first (and gear. I'd much rather start a build like this with plenty of gear)? While you can (carefully) build much of anything with 28 point builds, you have an easier time with the extra points (the above has 4 stats crying out for higher levels). I'm also curious about why you would spend 6 points on wisdom (the traditional "wisdom" has been to dump it and use an item to allow spell use).

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