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  1. #41
    Community Member MattiG's Avatar
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    @Arlathen, it's all about the synergies between THF and U14 changes. Anything that grants +W's is inherently benefitting base dice like eAGA and eSoS much more than any endgame 1 hander, though I would say that Nightmare would be close. Several of the benefits you mention are worthy considerations indeed, but I'm confident you'll agree that the changes to cleave + ED synergies outweigh those benefits whenever you're able to test it for yourself.

    Beyond weapon weight benefits, the "secret" x-factor would be Wild Weapons. Not that compelling on paper, but test it in game and you'll see what I mean. I'd wager that a tempest ranger could respec tempest feats for thf feats and come out ahead using thf.

    @goodspeed

    Barbs obliterate palis through level 20, but so much extra damage potential now comes from ED's, which any class with the required feats could benefit from. Most barbs seem to think Horc is the way to go, while palis tend to be human. That alone accounts for much of the narrowness in the DPS gap as humans destroy Horcs while boosts remain (due to dual boosting haste and damage), and there are very few situations where you'll make it through 10-12 (more for kensai) boosts before being able to shrine or simply finishing the quest.
    Sicks and Tymn on Orien.

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
    @Arlathen, it's all about the synergies between THF and U14 changes. Anything that grants +W's is inherently benefitting base dice like eAGA and eSoS much more than any endgame 1 hander, though I would say that Nightmare would be close. Several of the benefits you mention are worthy considerations indeed, but I'm confident you'll agree that the changes to cleave + ED synergies outweigh those benefits whenever you're able to test it for yourself.

    Beyond weapon weight benefits, the "secret" x-factor would be Wild Weapons. Not that compelling on paper, but test it in game and you'll see what I mean. I'd wager that a tempest ranger could respec tempest feats for thf feats and come out ahead using thf.

    @goodspeed

    Barbs obliterate palis through level 20, but so much extra damage potential now comes from ED's, which any class with the required feats could benefit from. Most barbs seem to think Horc is the way to go, while palis tend to be human. That alone accounts for much of the narrowness in the DPS gap as humans destroy Horcs while boosts remain (due to dual boosting haste and damage), and there are very few situations where you'll make it through 10-12 (more for kensai) boosts before being able to shrine or simply finishing the quest.
    Interesting thoughts. My latest build capitalises on Ranger 12's Tempest 2 100% offhand attacks, and starting out from Primal Avatar I'll be working my way through Fury of the Wild on the way to my eventual chosen destiny (it's all hush hush atm, but will be the subject of my next Theorybuild). It'll give me a chance to see what all the fuss is about.

    Good point though on the +X[W] abilities providing much more output in terms of DPS, especially when geared towards Fury and Adrenaline boosts - EAGA is quite sickening with its base 1D20 dice roll, and ESOS gets stupid benefits out of it as well

    Meh, one day I may roll a THF'er. I just can't bring myself to play a pure Barb
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  3. #43
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
    I've seen several mentions of twf now, and I would wholeheartedly disagree. Twf should be avoided like the plague and especially on palis. Even with one of the epic greataxes, properly feated and ED'd THF is so superior to twf that it makes me sad for all the khopeshes I have rotting in my tr cache.

    Several of you who have mentioned TWF have given very solid advice, but to suggest that twf is anything a pali should strive for, makes me wonder if we're playing the same game.

    No one that has ED'd wild weapons and momentum swing will argue with this (assuming they did so in a toon with thf feats and both cleaves). Once you get into Fury, a big nasty THF weapon for those exalted smite adrenalines (because of the innate power attack advantage and larger base dice) makes the consideration of anything else completely moot.

    not that i'm not open to being surprised by some game mechanic that has somehow escaped my notice, but before any twf proponent disagrees with this, i'd urge you to explore the combination of ED/feats described above before you get too sure. Keep in mind that I love twf and have GS khopeshes on two toons. I personally didn't want THF to be better DPS, but alas.
    THF is clearly better DPS for multiple targets, no one can argue that. THF is also clearly better for generating big crit numbers. But while the magnitude of better has increased, there isn't anything new in either case. TWF still wins out on high value single targets for the same reasons: on-hit effects represent an enormous amount of damage and infrequently or never apply on glances, and speed kills.

    Think of it this way. A TWFer gets about 11 attacks in 3 seconds, depending on things like Tempest or double strike. Shadowdancer's 6d6 alone turns that into 11*21 = 231 damage. Certainly Momentum Swing does more than 231 damage, but the question is whether it does 231 additional damage, and whether it does enough on top of that to make up the gap THF already had to TWF. Let's look at it with eAGA:
    base -> base + 5d20 = base + 52.5
    critical profile 23 -> 29
    So our net gain is 6/20 * base + 29/20 * 52.5, or about .3 * base + 76. To just match the TWF's SD, our base damage has to be 517. It's not.

    Of course there's more than just Momentum Swing, but this is just to demonstrate the severity of TWF's advantage by relying on hits rather than cooldown abilities, however apparently potent they are.
    Quote Originally Posted by goodspeed
    But to say they're 90% of the barbs dps? Jesus christ apparently everyone's been building completly wrong. I mean god damn son, we could all be basically dump trucks, and wailing on things like a dude strung out on pcp! With self healing to boot lol.

    I mean... has the barbarian been dead for 20 minutes that the pally is matching 90% of his dmg?
    It wouldn't be the first time everyone was wrong, would it? I still see puggers ask barbarians to tank, reject rogues and sorcerers because "we need dps". As mentioned above, it would even be for the same old reasons: the Gospel of the Big Critical.

  4. #44
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    It wouldn't be the first time everyone was wrong, would it? I still see puggers ask barbarians to tank, reject rogues and sorcerers because "we need dps". As mentioned above, it would even be for the same old reasons: the Gospel of the Big Critical.

    True. I know I used to think rogues sucked until I made one the right way. Now I apply with confidence to groups looking for sorc dps. And what doesn't make you feel warm and gooey inside walking up to an EE monster watching a few melee wailing on it, then pick a monster beside their and KO that sucker in seconds flat through sheer dmg.

    Though I still think 2hf wins out. Rarely am I ever 1on1 with anything. And the bigboss usually dies pretty damn quick. It's the trash that's deadly, and the trash ya gots to mow through. Well that and damn it I love those crits with an axe.

    Also it makes it a bit easier to change up rolls. Now true dawning a shield does cut down on the dps, but it also cuts down on the blows surrounding ya. Seriously it's amazing how much the dmg decreases. And with the thf line, ur still getting those glances.

    Of course with is with ED's, if your tring then, well hell nothing matters. And if you haven't bought ED'S lol good luck bud. Cause even the spellsinger bard's gonna whoosh past ya.
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  5. #45
    Community Member MattiG's Avatar
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    Kinerd, I respect your many contributions to the forums, but there's so much more that goes into "DPS" than the math you've listed. I would be happy to test this objectively, to whatever extent that's possible, because at the end of the day, I'd rather do more DPS on a single target than "be right about something on the forums."

    It's clear to me that THF is better DPS against even single targets based on experience (though I can't comment on Sneak Attack and could imagine it might be closer or even better on 0% fort mobs. Then again, 0% fort mobs guarantee big adrenaline crits too). It's clear to you that TWF is better based on math. You've previously pointed out that the track record of "maths vs experience" doesn't bode well for the experience camp, but my assertion is that there are aspects of the DPS equation that aren't easily quantifiable and can be as qualitative as when the actual person behind the keyboard hits their next cleave to break their attack animation. I can't think of a reliable way to quantify "stuff like that," but it makes a tremendous difference overall.

    (you do realize that glancing blows are higher than base damage when properly feated / ED'd? And that they apply to single targets? And that they have 100% chance of procc'ing all the extra Fury add-on damage from tunnel vision and sense weakness? There seems to be some confusion about this, but if you weren't already operating under that assumption, this alone would constitute a strong counterargument to the twf proc damage point you raise.)

    Rather than volley math vs 'my gut,' I'd rather just test it--more so than I already did before caching my khopeshes (but beware, my gut is a formidable adversary!). Anyway... Any thoughts on putting it to the test short of me simply respeccing to TWF and taking videos? No math will convince me of your point, but if testing did, I'd humbly admit it, and thank you for the eye-opener. Either way, it's fun to learn more about the game, so let me know if you'd like to try to coordinate something.

    I don't always get a chance to check the forums daily, but if you reply and I don't, just shoot me a PM.
    Sicks and Tymn on Orien.

  6. #46
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Thanks!

    Unfortunately it's very difficult to test DPS in interesting real world scenarios. It's easy to go out and wail on a portal, but that's not interesting for most of us. What we need is a target in a raid (so as to control for scaling) with automatic or at least mostly non-aggro (so as to allow sneak attack) and with some amount of fortification (so as to mimic raid bosses), but this is prohibitively difficult to work in practice. Even if you did take videos, I'm not sure they would tell us anything useful. As for me, I have no THFers anymore so I'm even less help.

    I knew the things you said about glancing blows except the part about them being more than base damage. Do you mean in general or only under the epic moment? If the latter, 30 seconds in 5 minutes is only 10% uptime, I'm confident that the conclusion holds. If the former, I am quite surprised and would like to know more.

    I think it would also help to re-visit just how severe the gap between TWF and THF became with the advent of Cannith crafting. The slotted eSoS was still the best weapon for THF, but TWF went from Min 2 (effectively Holy and Slicing) to Holy Burst of Greater Bane. Similar reasoning applies to the power creep in damage and Strength we've experienced with MotU et al: TWF gets way more from a unit damage increase and isn't as behind on Strength as 1.5 to 1 suggests. Plus everyone is (justifiably!) moving to the dramatically easier to acquire and higher base damage eAGA over the eSoS, but that necessarily means that the increases are somewhat eaten up by the pre-existing inferiority of the eAGA to the eSoS. At the same time the TWFer plugs away with the same old HBoGBs, and therefore gets full value of their destiny increase.

  7. #47
    Community Member MattiG's Avatar
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    I'll endeavor to type more later (using phone at the moment), but indeed it was the regular old glancing blows I was referencing (not the epic moment). I'll try to remember to SS later.

    RE: mob selection, i'd just been using EE Sobrien, but he has some limitations.
    Sicks and Tymn on Orien.

  8. #48
    Founder & Build Synthesis Battlehawke's Avatar
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    Just a note of interest. If you want pure, raw DPS with limited self healing, a crappy AC, god awful PRR, dodge then there is no doubt a Barbarian is the way to go!

    If you want versatility; to have almost as much DPS (arguably 75.- 90% of)(in Fury Ed) AND the ability to tank with a high AC, high Intimidate, Awesome PRR, high DR, self healing, Monstrous Hate Aggro, and high saves, especially in Unyielding Sentinel ED, then there is NO competition.

    A Paladin can do both very well. A Barbarian can't be a great tank without timing his DPS!
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