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  1. #21
    The Hatchery bigolbear's Avatar
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    ok op, im basicly done arguing with you, because you have constantly insulted me and its like talking to a brick wall or some arrogant little child with their fingers in thier ears.

    I provided a full breakdown, sourced from the wiki - and yes i know the wiki is a player maintained resource but its often a lot more accurate than ingame info.

    so the +10 is +5 you say in the case of necromancy. ok - wiki says +10 and my sorc is reducing reflex saves by 10 with that ability. I didnt check necromancy as my wis is out of that destiny at the mo.

    Reading through your responce - it seems that the basis of your argument relies on the fact that all the good stuff from magister can be twisted if your in draconic. This does not make it a worthless destiny - think how much worse off you'd be if these things werent around to be twisted.

    Id also point out that energy burst - the big draw of draconic can be twisted into magister.

    The null magic line meant the difference of relaible spell pen vs unreliable spell pen for my wiz on epic elite, it is far from worthless.

    Have fun playing with your dragon powers and lookign at the prety big numbers.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigolbear View Post
    The null magic line meant the difference of relaible spell pen vs unreliable spell pen for my wiz on epic elite, it is far from worthless.
    I realized that. And that's not relevant to my post. No endgame wizzie will EVER take those. It's worth something for people who haven't ground out the past lives needed to hit the Spell Pen requirements, sure. Once you have done so, it's a total waste of AP. I'm not talking about wizzies that can't hit competent Spell Pen without wasting points on the Nullmagic line.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigolbear View Post
    I provided a full breakdown, sourced from the wiki - and yes i know the wiki is a player maintained resource but its often a lot more accurate than ingame info.
    Your breakdown was play math that didn't take account of twists, included irrelevant information, and ignored the AP costs needed to hit what you said you could take.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigolbear View Post
    so the +10 is +5 you say in the case of necromancy. ok - wiki says +10 and my sorc is reducing reflex saves by 10 with that ability. I didnt check necromancy as my wis is out of that destiny at the mo.
    It's reported in game as +5 for Necromancy. Fear also doesn't appear to Proc it. I'm not sure WHAT procs it. Archmage SLA's don't appear to proc it either.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigolbear View Post
    Reading through your responce - it seems that the basis of your argument relies on the fact that all the good stuff from magister can be twisted if your in draconic. This does not make it a worthless destiny - think how much worse off you'd be if these things werent around to be twisted.
    The point is that there should be a reason for an endgame Archmage to want to be in Magister. And there really is almost no reason to want to be in Magister. This is ABSOLUTELY the case for all content up through Epic Hard. And it's arguably the case in Epic Elite as well.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMechMan View Post
    ~10 DC and ~10 spell pen is what the other guy said, that seems like quite a bit. Less nuking, for sure, but 10 DC and 10 spell pen is the difference between a caster with 3 wiz PL, 3 fvs PL, and +4 tome/+3insightful/+1exceptional/drow/+8 item/yugo/shipbuffed/4 destiny int vs 1st life caster without ANY tome, elf or WF, +6 int but otherwise naked unyugoed unshippied without EDs
    Yes, casters who haven't ground out the necessary past lives to perform well in Epic Elite against high SR mobs will no doubt want to stay in Magister so that they have a chance in hell of landing something. For the casters that have done this, staying in Magister is pretty darn lame. It's beyond lame in EH content or lower, and it's arguably still quite lame in EE content.

    Quote Originally Posted by MRMechMan View Post
    I remember clawing for every DC possible with gear/build, and grinding out 25+ million xp for the past lives. If 10 spellpen and 10 DC are now useless, DDO endgame is very different than I remember.
    That was fake math. I'll give him the 10 DC point, with qualifications. In Magister, you can get a slim chance in hell of dropping mobs Fort Saves by 5. (Sucks to be an Archmage here.) And you can Arcane Spell Surge a limited number of times. So *if* you Arcane Spell Surge against a mob you've procced the Fort debuff on, then you're up by 10 on your Necro DC's. Sorry, that's no good. He doesn't know what he's talking about. And this hardly helps your Wail. So you're going to burn your Arcane Spellsurge on your Fingers when you've already managed to land that Fort Debuff? ROFL.
    Last edited by Faent; 11-21-2012 at 06:39 AM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faent View Post
    I realized that. And that's not relevant to my post. No endgame wizzie will EVER take those. It's worth something for people who haven't ground out the past lives needed to hit the Spell Pen requirements, sure. Once you have done so, it's a total waste of AP. I'm not talking about wizzies that can't hit competent Spell Pen without wasting points on the Nullmagic line.



    Your breakdown was play math that didn't take account of twists, included irrelevant information, and ignored the AP costs needed to hit what you said you could take.



    It's reported in game as +5 for Necromancy. Fear also doesn't appear to Proc it. I'm not sure WHAT procs it. Archmage SLA's don't appear to proc it either.



    The point is that there should be a reason for an endgame Archmage to want to be in Magister. And there really is almost no reason to want to be in Magister. This is ABSOLUTELY the case for all content up through Epic Hard. And it's arguably the case in Epic Elite as well.
    NOTE: I have not actually played with a wizard with epic destinies, I tred my wizard before getting the epic destiny pack. What I am writing is based off of playing around with the destiny planner.

    Alright, now to what I want to say. You seem to be saying that Magister is useless simply because it isn't that good for Archmage. If AM gets more from draconic, that doesn't mean Magister is worthless. Let's take a look at it from a PM view.

    For a PM, who's specialty is in negative energy and instakills, death ward can stop them in their tracks. Thus, null magic guard/strike is very beneficial, since it can dispel a death ward, giving magister a bonus over draconic. Most instakills have pretty long cooldowns, so spell school familiarity helps you instakill faster.

    In honest opinion, the lower tier stuff aren't very useful, and everything but the spell school line, null magic guard/strike, and arcane adept are filler options imo. The bottom line is it depends on the person. A PM who needs the boost to DCs and wants to really focus on instakills would probably prefer the magister destiny, taking advantage of null magic to get rid of pesky death wards.

    Maybe for your playstyle Magister is very weak, but that doesn't mean it is worthless for everyone.

  5. #25
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faent View Post
    I very much enjoy Dragon Breath. When I'm in Draconic, I run through all my uses, all the time. It's like having 5 EiN's (that you have to aim, sure, but that's not a big deal). Energy Burst is like having endless EiN's on a short timer in Epic Hard content. And when you're working on rounding up mobs in Epic Hard, you take HP attrition, which means you also have safe uses of Go Out With a Bang, which is another EiN. Energy Vortex simply rocks in Epic Hard as well.

    Energy Burst alone will drop groups of EE mobs sometimes. Energy Burst + Dragon Breath will get the job done frequently as well. Dragon Breath and Energy Vortex are obviously riskier in Epic Elite. You have to be careful with them, but they're still awesome.
    ...so like I said: Energy Burst is great. Dragon Breath isn't that great.
    Draconic is just as good for Spell Pen as Magister, on an end-game wizard. In Draconic, you take Draconic Piercing Spellcraft and twist Magister Piercing Spellcraft. In Magister, you take Magister Piercing Spellcraft and twist Draconic Piercing Spellcraft. The only Spell Pen differences comes from the top of that redonkulously AP intensive tree in Magister (namely, Master of Necromancy). But you want to be able to hit good enough Spell Pen without climbing that tree, since it's an insane waste of AP.

    Edit: The Magister SP reduction (Arcane Adept) is also broken. It doesn't stack with The Staff of the Petitioner.
    It's odd to me that you are quick to point out that the Spell Pen can be twisted but apparently ignore that Energy Burst can.

    I would like to ask again, however: what are your specific numbers for Spell Pen and DC in Draconic Incarnation? It is fundamental to your case.

  6. #26
    Sketchy Adventurer aradelothion's Avatar
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    I've been convinced that, for Sorcerers at least (and Air Savants in particular), Magister *is* the way to go. SP discount, faster evo cooldowns and -save procs from evo spells, with twisted Energy Burst (or maybe Sense Weakness if enchantment spec'd and if the +30% damage to helpless mobs includes spells, I haven't checked) and other goodies, and you're looking at some serious DPS.

    For Wizards though, I tend to agree, but I think that's because my pure Wiz is an undergeared first-lifer (my first toon, and it shows: doesn't even have the SP regen necklace clicky from Korthos lol), and he barely cracks 49-50 Necro DC and ~48 spell pen, so the huge damage boost from cheap Draconic SLA's are more noticeable.
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  7. #27
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    ...so like I said: Energy Burst is great. Dragon Breath isn't that great. It's odd to me that you are quick to point out that the Spell Pen can be twisted but apparently ignore that Energy Burst can.

    I would like to ask again, however: what are your specific numbers for Spell Pen and DC in Draconic Incarnation? It is fundamental to your case.
    I tentatively agree that with Faent that Draconic is better. I have a completionist draconic pale master, and it just feels much more powerful. In epic hard, draconic is unquestionably superior. In epic elite, I think it's a matter of debate that comes down to whether the null magic line is worth it or not.

    As far as pure DC and spell penetration numbers go, draconic is only down one DC or 3 spell pen (though not both).

    Magister would twist in the following:

    +1 int, +1 int, +1 int/2 spell pen

    Draconic would twist in:

    +3 necro DC, +3 spell pen, +1 int/2 spell pen.

    So the actual absolute DC's are not all that different.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    ...so like I said: Energy Burst is great. Dragon Breath isn't that great. It's odd to me that you are quick to point out that the Spell Pen can be twisted but apparently ignore that Energy Burst can.
    Two of my twists are occupied permanently. Spell Penentration +3 (from either Magister or Draconic) and Echoes of the Ancestors: Arcane (+1 INT, +2 Spell Pen) from Fatesinger. My third twist is typically Endless Faith from Exalted Angel.

    In that setup, there is no *pure* DC difference between Magister and Draconic. There is also only a +3 Spell Pen difference gotten for a single class (Necro) from Magister Master of Necromancy (which an endgame wizard isn't going to want anyway).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    I would like to ask again, however: what are your specific numbers for Spell Pen and DC in Draconic Incarnation? It is fundamental to your case.
    It's pretty simple. I've already answered this. The pure Spell Pen boost in Magister comes from Master of [School], which nobody wants at endgame. Magister is not up in pure DC's either. It's up in non-pure DC's from the Fort Save Debuff (which is currently broken and far better for PM's anyway) and Arcane Spell Surge (5x/rest). But taking that Fort Save Debuff (which is broken right now) will cut you out of INT tiers, and so be a slightly less net benefit than it's advertised to be.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by the613 View Post
    For a PM, who's specialty is in negative energy and instakills, death ward can stop them in their tracks. Thus, null magic guard/strike is very beneficial, since it can dispel a death ward, giving magister a bonus over draconic.
    Archmages specialize in instakills too, you know. Magister is slightly better for PM's because of the Fort Save Debuff they can land for free. (But remember, that's currently broken in the game.) Null Magic doesn't favor the PM over the AM at all. It only would if you assumed that PM's were the only people interested in getting around Deathward. But you'd only assume that if you never realized that Archmages have never been behind PM's in terms of Necro spells. (Yes, strictly speaking, gear and racial choices put Pale Masters ahead of Archmages in terms of Necro. But in the past, they BARELY put the PM ahead. It's getting worse and worse. AM's have been radically neglected. Probably because the DEV's don't play Archmages.) And there are typically better ways around Death Ward anyways, such as being fast or using Enlarge if you're slow.
    Last edited by Faent; 11-23-2012 at 11:45 PM.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faent View Post
    Archmages specialize in instakills too, you know. Magister is slightly better for PM's because of the Fort Save Debuff they can land for free. (But remember, that's currently broken in the game.) Null Magic doesn't favor the PM over the AM at all. It only would if you assumed that PM's were the only people interested in getting around Deathward. But you'd only assume that if you never realized that Archmages have never been behind PM's in terms of Necro spells. (Yes, strictly speaking, gear and racial choices put Pale Masters ahead of Archmages in terms of Necro. But in the past, they BARELY put the PM ahead. It's getting worse and worse. AM's have been radically neglected. Probably because the DEV's don't play Archmages.) And there are typically better ways around Death Ward anyways, such as being fast or using Enlarge if you're slow.
    My statement was based on the fact that PMs are strictly specialized in necromancy, while AMs may or may not be. For a necro AM, it probably applies the same as for a PM. In the end, it is a personal thing IMO, as I have already stated. My point is just because you find it is horrible for yourself doesn't mean someone else won't receive greater benefit from it.

    For me (I am going to be playing a PM next life), Magister would probably be a better destiny because my comp has trouble with large drawing distances (this is a personal issue that I plan to rectify eventually), so enlarge isn't that helpful, due to being unable to target long distance opponents most of the time. Thus, I gain a lot more from the null magic line then someone who wasn't using a ****** comp like I am.

  11. #31
    The Hatchery MRMechMan's Avatar
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    For a sorc, magister isn't bad at all, as someone said. I know that wasn't the comparison of this thread, but once you can twist in energy burst,

    -15% cooldowns
    about +10 DCs (15% proc WILL land pretty quick)
    -10% sp costs
    45 spellpower from sigil (maybe?)

    vs
    5x dragon breath (1min cooldown)
    energy vortex (2min cooldown)

    of courses you can twist in bits and pieces of either side you want, but not having to spend 6 AP on go out with a bang and energy sheath is nice, more room for cha.

    Lets face it, energy burst IS the big draw of draconic, hands down. But in terms of making the actual sorc spells better, magister>draconic.

  12. #32
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMechMan View Post
    For a sorc, magister isn't bad at all, as someone said. I know that wasn't the comparison of this thread, but once you can twist in energy burst,

    -15% cooldowns
    about +10 DCs (15% proc WILL land pretty quick)
    -10% sp costs
    45 spellpower from sigil (maybe?)

    vs
    5x dragon breath (1min cooldown)
    energy vortex (2min cooldown)

    of courses you can twist in bits and pieces of either side you want, but not having to spend 6 AP on go out with a bang and energy sheath is nice, more room for cha.

    Lets face it, energy burst IS the big draw of draconic, hands down. But in terms of making the actual sorc spells better, magister>draconic.
    -Tier 3 spell augmentation is expensive and requires sacrifice of something else, and is counterbalanced by draconic augmentation which can do the same thing.

    -Arcane adept is counterbalanced by draconic hunger.

    -15% cooldown on a school isn't very good, since sorc cooldowns are already low.

    -You're also forgetting that draconic incarnation gets passive spellpower and MCL boosts to two different elements, which means spells cast by a draconic sorc are strictly more powerful than spells cast by magister sorc.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    -Tier 3 spell augmentation is expensive and requires sacrifice of something else, and is counterbalanced by draconic augmentation which can do the same thing.

    -Arcane adept is counterbalanced by draconic hunger.

    -15% cooldown on a school isn't very good, since sorc cooldowns are already low.

    -You're also forgetting that draconic incarnation gets passive spellpower and MCL boosts to two different elements, which means spells cast by a draconic sorc are strictly more powerful than spells cast by magister sorc.
    Unless I'm missing something but draconic hunger only offers a 10% chance of triggering 15 temporary spell points, while it increases to 50% chance of procing when draconic fury is active it can't countervalance arcane adept which is -10% sp all the time, which also stacks with another -10% source on an item.

    and do sorc cooldowns not get any lower with evocation familiarity? It sounds badass to have even lower cooldowns but I don't know since I haven't played around with it too much.

  14. #34
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lustrum View Post
    Unless I'm missing something but draconic hunger only offers a 10% chance of triggering 15 temporary spell points, while it increases to 50% chance of procing when draconic fury is active it can't countervalance arcane adept which is -10% sp all the time, which also stacks with another -10% source on an item.

    and do sorc cooldowns not get any lower with evocation familiarity? It sounds badass to have even lower cooldowns but I don't know since I haven't played around with it too much.
    Energy burst means whole mobs are dead, and the chance becomes a lot higher than 10%. And if that doesn't counterbalance, higher MCL and spell power certainly does.

    And with evocation familiarity, I never felt the need. I can spam spells back to back all day on a sorc and never feel limited by cooldown.
    Last edited by AtomicMew; 11-25-2012 at 07:54 PM.

  15. #35
    The Hatchery MRMechMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    Energy burst means whole mobs are dead, and the chance becomes a lot higher than 10%. And if that doesn't counterbalance, higher MCL and spell power certainly does.

    And with evocation familiarity, I never felt the need. I can spam spells back to back all day on a sorc and never feel limited by cooldown.
    How many mobs do you kill in a typical quest? 50? 100? Maybe a couple hundred if soloing a weirdly long quest? That's 75/150/300 sp, respectively.

    A typical sorc has 3000+ sp, 10% less sp is better than hunger unless you kill 200+ mobs PER shrine....I don't see that happening often.

    I definitely noticed the -cooldowns. It is a very nice DPS increase. Try spamming 3 lvl5+ spells in a chain without it without pausing...you can't without that -cooldown.

    Again, draconic max caster/caster level is not higher than magister.

    Also, magister is per SCHOOL, not element, which basically means 3 elements. So the fact that you can get a second school with draconic is pretty moot.

    Draconic augmentation is not the same as evoc augmentation. Not even close. You keep using the word counterbalanced but I don't think it is accurate in any of those cases.

    I'll probably run draconic at least till I can twist in energy burst but I have been thrilled with Magister on my sorc particularly after reading this thread and expecting it to be terrible. It isn't.

  16. #36
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Arguing about spell augmentation is pointless, because they both are simply not working

  17. #37
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    So by endgame instakilling caster, I mean a LVL 25 Necromancy focused caster (so at least SF: Necro and GSF: Necro) with at least 3x WIZ, 3x FvS past lives and all destinies locked in.

    My first point, which is obviously true, was this:

    In Epic Hard content or lower an endgame instakilling caster is nuts if they are running Magister rather than Draconic.

    My second point, which is arguably true, was this:

    In Epic Elite content, an endgame instakilling caster is nuts if they are running Magister rather than Draconic.

    In summary, Magister sucks for endgame instakilling casters. (Of course, Magister is currently totally borked. And if it were working, it would suck LESS for PM's than AM's. This is a glaring DEV oversight, as are the gearing options for WF.) That Magister sucks so much for endgame instakilling casters is no doubt intended by Turbine.

    There is a huge metagame nerf in progress for instakilling casters. And everything the DEVs are rolling out now seems designed to give folks who aren't endgame a quick boost. Magister is designed, primarily, to give an undergeared and underequipped instakiller a fast boost in EH or lower content, just like most of the MoTU gear is designed to give undergeared and underequipped toons a fast boost in EH or lower content.

    Turbine is also trying to compress the endgame, so they can manage to balance things better. The Draconic and Magister Destinies are well-suited for this purpose. They aren't suited to benefit any particular kind of endgame toon, just like most of the gear isn't suited to benefit any endgame toons. Everyone is being shunted into PRETTY MUCH THE SAME, and it's now fairly easy for everyone to be PRETTY MUCH THE SAME.
    Last edited by Faent; 11-26-2012 at 10:11 PM.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMechMan View Post
    I'll probably run draconic at least till I can twist in energy burst but I have been thrilled with Magister on my sorc particularly after reading this thread and expecting it to be terrible. It isn't.
    I didn't give you any reason to think Magister on your Sorc isn't awesome. This thread wasn't about Sorcs in Magister. It was about how Magister SUCKS for endgame instakilling casters.

    However, in EH content or lower, you're nuts if you opt for Magister over Draconic. In that content, Draconic is hands down the best destiny for your Sorc.

    I can't really argue the Draconic vs. Magister debate for an endgame Sorcerer in EE content since I don't play one. I play an endgame wizzie, not an endgame sorcie. What I can tell you is that the endgame sorcies I know who run in Draconic fracking rule. They can pull off feats my endgame wizzie cannot pull off. Right now, it looks like the balance of power in EE content has tipped heavily in favor of the endgame raw DPS sorcie over the endgame DC based instakilling wizzie.

    In EH content or lower, no endgame toon really cares. It's all beyond trivial. And for any kind of caster, Draconic renders it wholly trivial. Draconic turns EH content or lower into a complete JOKE. Magister does not.

    If you want one example, go try to run a 5 star level 25 Ring of Fire in Magister. Then go try to run the same thing in Draconic.
    Last edited by Faent; 11-26-2012 at 10:39 PM.

  19. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Faent View Post
    I didn't give you any reason to think Magister on your Sorc isn't awesome. This thread wasn't about Sorcs in Magister. It was about how Magister SUCKS for endgame instakilling casters.

    However, in EH content or lower, you're nuts if you opt for Magister over Draconic. In that content, Draconic is hands down the best destiny for your Sorc.

    I can't really argue the Draconic vs. Magister debate for an endgame Sorcerer in EE content since I don't play one. I play an endgame wizzie, not an endgame sorcie. What I can tell you is that the endgame sorcies I know who run in Draconic fracking rule. They can pull off feats my endgame wizzie cannot pull off. Right now, it looks like the balance of power in EE content has tipped heavily in favor of the endgame raw DPS sorcie over the endgame DC based instakilling wizzie.

    In EH content or lower, no endgame toon really cares. It's all beyond trivial. And for any kind of caster, Draconic renders it wholly trivial. Draconic turns EH content or lower into a complete JOKE. Magister does not.

    If you want one example, go try to run a 5 star level 25 Ring of Fire in Magister. Then go try to run the same thing in Draconic.
    No EH or lower content is a complete joke regardless of destiny if it's not you need to look at other issues not your destiny.

    As for EE content it really depends on the quest and there really is no perfect answer. If you are too set in your way to realize when one setup is better versus the other then you are not taking full advantage of all options available to you for success. Just because instakills may not be working as well doesn't mean magister can't offer options to a high dc caster.

    As far as the balance of power it was never really that much in favor of the dc caster anyways pre expansion as good sorcs killed as fast/faster and did more boss dps than wizzies although wizzies were better at soloing in general.

    As far as the newest/hardest content I would much rather have magister set for enchantment on my instakilling pale master than draconic or necro magister. Keeping +3 spell pen twisted in in this setup is a huge waste also. Other than favor runs theres not much reason to be sticking yourself in underdark/demonweb content with the new chain available with higher loot level. New chain requires little to no spell pen and instakills need to be focused towards weak fort saves for which you don't need the extra magister necro boost and enchant cc for the higher fort save mobs which you wouldnt hit without debuffs even if you were a full necro magister. Makes for a great setup for enchantment based magister.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    No EH or lower content is a complete joke regardless of destiny if it's not you need to look at other issues not your destiny.
    If you say "No.." I expect you to be objecting to something I said. I have repeatedly said that EH is a joke. It is, however, *more* of a joke on a wizard in Draconic than it is for a wizard in Magister. This is because in EH content and lower, Draconic effectively provides multiple Wails of the Banshee and a massive boost to boss DPS.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    As far as the newest/hardest content I would much rather have magister set for enchantment on my instakilling pale master than draconic or necro magister.
    Enchantment and Necro are incredibly lackluster in much of Druid's Deep (plants) and The High Road (undead). Epic Ward is also all over the place in EE. There are a few places where enchantment shines, but not many. Are you stumping for a return to the days when wizards are supposed to be enchant focused, by the way? If you're telling me that Magister is great because I can be enchant focused in it, well, I think you've already lost the battle over how great Magister is.

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