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    Default Le Suck

    So you would think a wizard should sit in Magister, right? No. Draconic Incarnation is about 10X better, since Energy Burst is the new Wail. There is no question that in all content up through Epic Hard, Draconic Incarnation is about 10x better than Magister. And in Epic Elite content, it's still better. What gives? Why is the DC casting destiny so lackluster? Have we just decided it's time to royally shaft DC casters? They were the flavor of the month for awhile, and now they're totally screwed (unless they happen to be Human Pale Masters, which are slightly less screwed than Warforged Archmages?)

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    The Hatchery MRMechMan's Avatar
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    Haven't tried Magister much, but the first time I energy bursted, I started laughing. It's basically an AOE polar ray and then some for 20sp. Ridiculous.

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    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    Actually I think they were flavor for quite a few months there. Though seems like the 2 have their standard purpose. The draconic is without a doubt dps. Dragon lineage and all that ****.

    And the other is dc focused. Maybe something else I honestly haven't read into it fully lol. But from glancing at it, it looked like the support destiny. It jacks up your dc's every which way, kills spell cost a bit, hits spell pen up, some other stuff.

    I actually thought it was a half way decent Destiny for a pale trying like all hell to reach the epic feats of trying to instakill drows. And AM wise, well hell, I mean ur jacking up all your CC's.

    I don't see the problem here. I mean, it jacks up the sole core of a wizard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goodspeed View Post
    I don't see the problem here. I mean, it jacks up the sole core of a wizard.
    The problem is that Turbine totally nerfed DC casting. Sure, it's great on Epic Hard and lower content. But then you want to run in Draconic since your instakills are fine without Magister. Any endgame DC wizzie who is running Epic Hard or lower content is a fool if they aren't in Draconic. Magister is total junk in Epic Hard content or lower (for a well-geared endgame wizzie). Magister is also basically total junk in Epic Elite content. So basically, Magister is total junk. So we nerfed Wail, and then passed out Energy Burst and Dragon Breath? That was cute, Turbine. And thanks for the junky Magister Destiny.
    Last edited by Faent; 11-20-2012 at 11:42 PM.

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    The Hatchery MRMechMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faent View Post
    Magister is also basically total **** in Epic Elite content.
    So the DCs from magister are not needed for EN/EH, and are not enough for EE? Basically anything steamrolls EN/EH, so the argument that draconic REALLY steamrolls it isn't saying much.

    It seems like the hp bloat from EH-->EE would make instakilling better...if you can get the DCs for it. If you can't even with magister, maybe draconic is better.

    Not attacking you or anything...I am genuinely wondering, I don't have a DC wiz atm and haven't really explored magister much.

    I have a guildy that soloed EE OOB as a magister, they can't be THAT bad .

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    The Hatchery bigolbear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faent View Post
    The problem is that Turbine totally nerfed DC casting. Sure, it's great on Epic Hard and lower content. But then you want to run in Draconic since your instakills are fine without Magister. Any endgame DC wizzie who is running Epic Hard or lower content is a fool if they aren't in Draconic. Magister is total **** in Epic Hard content or lower (for a well-geared endgame wizzie). Magister is also basically total **** in Epic Elite content. So basically, Magister is total ****. So we nerfed Wail, and then passed out Energy Burst and Dragon Breath? That was cute, Turbine. And thanks for the **** Magister Destiny.
    you seem angry. embrace you inner calm and review magister again.

    heres some hints on how to make it work well.

    1. null magic. this feature is extremely useful allowing you to cheaply dispell deathward and fom and masivly lower enemy spell res.

    2. the save reduction line for your prefered school. this is also incredibaly useful - using cheap spells or slas to lower the relevant save of a mob.

    using points 1 and 2 with some cheap/free debuffing a magister is looking at having +3 to 8 more spell pen and +3 to 8 more DC's - oh and the enemy will have no buffs. A magister in full swing with the school focus and spell pen too can literaly be 10+ dc and spell pen above a similarly feated draconic. This makes all the difference for a moderately equiped first lifer doing epic hard, or a well equiped TR doing epic elite.

    the sigils are of use - but are not the main power of the destiny on a wizard.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMechMan View Post
    So the DCs from magister are not needed for EN/EH, and are not enough for EE? Basically anything steamrolls EN/EH, so the argument that draconic REALLY steamrolls it isn't saying much.
    No, I think Magister should add value to an endgame caster. It doesn't. Draconic is where you want to be. Sure, an endgame caster can steamroll a lot of Epic Hard content. They can steamroll it way better in Draconic. And they'll do better in Draconic than in Magister even in EE. So Magister sucks.

    Quote Originally Posted by MRMechMan View Post
    It seems like the hp bloat from EH-->EE would make instakilling better...if you can get the DCs for it. If you can't even with magister, maybe draconic is better.
    Instakilling sucks in EE. Even insanely high DC casters are forced to drop saves. It's a bit better for a Human PM than it is for my WF Archmage, but it still sucks. Damage is frequently FAR better, and Draconic provides this with the new Wail known as Energy Burst. If you' want to be risky, Go Out With A Bang is also awesome. And, off course, you have Dragon Breath. Energy Burst + Dragon Breath will take out almost any group of EE mobs. If it doesn't, an AoE will finish them all off within a few seconds. And this is in addition to your gimped Wail.

    Magister doesn't provide the DC's needed to instakill well in EE content. It works better for PM's than Archmages, of course, but it works poorly for both. Draconic is the way to go. This is stupid. The Magister Destiny shouldn't suck this much.

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    The Hatchery MRMechMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faent View Post
    Magister doesn't provide the DC's needed to instakill well in EE content.
    Well=95%? 50%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Faent View Post
    This is stupid. The Magister Destiny shouldn't suck this much.
    ~10 DC and ~10 spell pen is what the other guy said, that seems like quite a bit. Less nuking, for sure, but 10 DC and 10 spell pen is the difference between a caster with

    3 wiz PL, 3 fvs PL, and +4 tome/+3insightful/+1exceptional/drow/+8 item/yugo/shipbuffed/4 destiny int

    vs

    1st life caster without ANY tome, elf or WF, +6 int but otherwise naked unyugoed unshippied without EDs

    I remember clawing for every DC possible with gear/build, and grinding out 25+ million xp for the past lives. If 10 spellpen and 10 DC are now useless, DDO endgame is very different than I remember.

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    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    Well the dc's and pens are just fanflippn tastic for LOCKING down the EE's. Ya can't always ko everything. Sorry charlie but if ya wanted dmg, ya rolled the wrong class.

    All I see here is "God damn it! Those sonsa *** kfc**** magus are nuking things left and right and my ass can't finger that *** thing. BS!"

    If those goofy bards can make the drow reliably disco it out for the duration on those balls, a wizard sure as hell can to.
    Last edited by goodspeed; 11-19-2012 at 12:30 PM.

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    I find it hilarious that in their quest to pretend Magisters suck, people just ignore that a magister soloed Epic Elite Offering of Blood, one of the very hardest of all EE quests.

    Favored Souls suck. Stop telling me that one soloed elite TOD at the level 20 cap, they suck, not listening not listening not listening
    I don't have a zerging problem.

    I'm zerging. That's YOUR problem.

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    Magisters do not suck. I have spent about 90% of my time at level 25 in magister and not draconic.

    First of all, it is a lot easier to slot +6 charisma/int in magister then draconic, offering at least +1 dc then draconic does (as an acid savant, +1 web dc means a lot in EE's)

    Secondly, the -10% sp can be nice. It adds up, especially with all your SP clickies/etc.. it can end up being an effective ~500-600 extra sp per rest, which is an extra bauble or more

    Thirdly, the tier 1 +6 saves really do make a difference to your saves especially in epic elites, they may not seem impressive but oh man do they add up.
    If you are reading this, that probably means I am broadcasting live @ http://www.twitch.tv/ZonixxTV

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    Personally, although magister is undeniably effective for me it's a "do what you were doing before, just better" destiny - i prefer either draconic or shiradi for my wizards, simply for the addition of extra, different capabilities & tricks.
    I don't mean to come across as unsympathetic - but I am, so I do.

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    If I played a pale master in groups much more than now, I would stay in magister more often. With faster cast speed and +3 caster level I could focus more on the instakilling and be better at it. With a time investment to get the fate points you can still twist in energy burst (tier 4).

    Draconic's big benefit is giving more viable DPS tools against varied content. Which helps (me) get things done faster when solo.

    How would OP improve magister without nerfing draconic? The issue for me is the excessive prerequisites to get the 15% faster casting and +3 caster level. If you're spending 12 points in that line to get the 3rd rank, that leaves 10 points for +5 INT and 2 that you have to spend in tier 1, probably for unearthly reaction. So now if you want the SP discount you either have to lose caster levels or INT. And you still don't get to play with any of the null magic stuff and sigils, and have no room at all for the spell penetration ability either unless you drop other stuff even further. Contrast this with draconic where even just 1 rank in energy burst is very effective.
    Last edited by hit_fido; 11-19-2012 at 06:41 AM. Reason: grammar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Faent View Post
    So you would think a wizard should sit in Magister, right? No. Draconic Incarnation is about 10X better, since Energy Burst is the new Wail.
    On my Sorc, I happened to level every other destiny (except PA not out yet then) to at least level 3 or 4 before I even touched Draconic. But once I got Energy Burst...WOW!

    However, I don't feel a need to stay in Draconic, because Energy Burst is twistable. ANY other destiny, with Energy Burst twisted in, seems to me to be almost as good DPS as just staying Draconic. Magister and Fatesinger both have some nice stuff, and even in a totally-off destiny I feel I'm doing fine.

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    The Hatchery bigolbear's Avatar
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    ********. I dare you to try to demonstrate that with a breakdown. You are clueless.

    Well arent you rude, sheesh. Thankfully your also wrong.

    heres the break down you asked for. - and just to disprove your point about it being 'pms only' im going to assume a necro speced archamge as base.

    The cheap debufs of choice will be:
    1 magic missile - no metas applied.
    2. fear - no metas applied.
    3. chain missile - no metas applied.
    4. waves of fatigue - no metas applied.
    5. lesser death aura - no metas applied.

    DC increases(including relative bonuses by lowering saves):
    +3 necro DC. - spell school specialist.
    +10 dc (15% chance of reducing fort save by 10 when a necro spell is cast-use the cheap debufs for this).
    +2 shaken effect from fear - one of the debufs.
    total +15 higher relative DC for necromancy spells that target fort saves.

    spell pen increases (including relative bonuses by lowering SR)
    +3 spell pen - peircing spell craft.
    +4 spell pen(15% chance of reducing spell res by 4 with all spells, also prevents enemy from casting.)
    +4 spell pen(6% proc AOE all enemies when you are hit.. arrows count for -4 SR to enemies.)
    +3 caster lvl
    total: +14 higher relative spell pen. Admitedly im not certian the 2 null types stack - so thats potentialy only +10 Spell pen.

    It is worth noting that the debuf proc chance happens for every spell effect applied, so magic missile for example has 5 x 15% proc chance of null magic strike. AOE's apply the proc chance to every mob effected.

    ref - soruce: DDO wiki.

    So now that I have provided a break down demonstrating my point are you going to man up and apologise?
    Last edited by bigolbear; 11-19-2012 at 11:56 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faent View Post
    So you would think a wizard should sit in Magister, right? No. ...
    Actually I don't any more. When ED's first came out, I assumed that, but found that cross-class synergies (thus far) tend to be a MUCH nicer mix for me. Ranger Tempest III with a splash of Draconic and Magister? Yes please! the defensive buffs from those is REALLY nice. Toss in some Lithe from Shadowdancer and you're fricking bullet-proof.

    I might change my mind if I ever get back on the game to play my Arty to cap and above; but for now - cross-class synergy is where I think the true value lies. I suspect Arty + Shiradi will rock, for example.

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    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    My wizard can't but for those that can instakill in epic elites why wouldn't they stay in destiny that let them do that ?
    You don't need to do damage to dead things.
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    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Energy Burst is great. Dragon Breath isn't that great, you only get 5 uses and the range is pitiful.

    I am having a hard time believing your claims about DC/Spell Pen. What numbers do you have for them in DI?

    I am having a very hard time finding the claim that DC casters are "totally screwed" credible. Your hyperbole only serves to weaken your case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigolbear View Post
    DC increases(including relative bonuses by lowering saves):
    +3 necro DC. - spell school specialist.
    +10 dc (15% chance of reducing fort save by 10 when a necro spell is cast-use the cheap debufs for this).
    +2 shaken effect from fear - one of the debufs.
    total +15 higher relative DC for necromancy spells that target fort saves.
    No. Necromancy Augmentation grants a 15% Chance of lowering Fort Saves by 5. It's not +10. The +3 Necro DC from Necromancy Specialist is something you obviously TWIST when you're running Draconic. So that's a wash too. The +2 Shaken from Fear is from the Fear Spell, and has nothing to do with Destinies. So that's irrelevant. You're making up these numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigolbear View Post
    spell pen increases (including relative bonuses by lowering SR)
    +3 spell pen - peircing spell craft.
    +4 spell pen(15% chance of reducing spell res by 4 with all spells, also prevents enemy from casting.)
    +4 spell pen(6% proc AOE all enemies when you are hit.. arrows count for -4 SR to enemies.)
    +3 caster lvl
    total: +14 higher relative spell pen. Admitedly im not certian the 2 null types stack - so thats potentialy only +10 Spell pen.
    No. You Twist in Piercing Spellcraft from Magister when you're in Draconic, and you twist in Piercing Spellcraft from Draconic when you're in Magister. So that's a wash. The 6% Proc to reduce Spell Pen requires a full AP investment in Nullmagic Guard. It makes no sense for an endgame caster to have this in Epic Hard or lower content (since they already have their Spell Pen covered), and it is worthless in Epic Elite content. The 15% chance of reducing Spell Resistance by 4 is Nullmagic Strike, and that requires a full investment of AP in the already worthless Nullmagic Guard and in Nullmagic Strike. It is also a waste of AP, since endgame casters have their Spell Pen already covered without needing it.

    But just for the heck of it, I reset my tree to pick up this suggested nonsense. I purchased 1 Tier of Intelligence, thus I'm taking a nice DC hit to all my spells there. I purchased 3x Piercing Spellcraft, 3x Unearthly Reactions, 3x Nullmagic Guard, 3x Nullmagic Strike, Arcane Adept, 3x Necromancy Augmentation, and then 2x Necromancy Familiarity. At this point, I was out of AP. And doing so cost me the ability to pick up Master of Necromancy. So that's a -3 to Spell Pen there due to wasted AP's spent on trying to get a SR debuff to proc.

    I think you are making this stuff up. No endgame wizard in their right mind is going to take Nullmagic Guard or Nullmagic Strike. You seem to not understand that these are NEVER needed on an endgame wizard in ANY content. They are simply a WASTE of AP. Perhaps if you don't have the past lives to back up your Spell Pen, you'd take them, but that's it.

    You are correct that sitting in Magister can give you a 5 DC boost over Draconic. This is from the CHANCE to proc a Fort Debuff on a mob, which, by the way, costs you Spell Points if you're an Archmage. Pale Masters can try to land it for free. That (and limited uses of Arcane Spellsurge) are the primary differences. You can also pick up +3 Spell Pen from the top of that redonkulously AP-intensive tree by taking Master of Necromancy x3. Doing that is going to cut you out of almost EVERYTHING ELSE in the Destiny. Among other things, you'll be giving up a TON of INT, which, you know, is what you want for your DC's.

    Your math is bad. You don't know what you're talking about. An end-game wizard is NUTS if they run anything but Draconic in Epic Hard or lower content. If you aren't an end-game wizard, then you might need to waste AP on trying to recover Spell Pen in Magister, sure. But I'm not talking about wizards who aren't tricked out with past lives.
    Last edited by Faent; 11-21-2012 at 12:45 AM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    Energy Burst is great. Dragon Breath isn't that great, you only get 5 uses and the range is pitiful.
    I very much enjoy Dragon Breath. When I'm in Draconic, I run through all my uses, all the time. It's like having 5 EiN's (that you have to aim, sure, but that's not a big deal). Energy Burst is like having endless EiN's on a short timer in Epic Hard content. And when you're working on rounding up mobs in Epic Hard, you take HP attrition, which means you also have safe uses of Go Out With a Bang, which is another EiN. Energy Vortex simply rocks in Epic Hard as well.

    Energy Burst alone will drop groups of EE mobs sometimes. Energy Burst + Dragon Breath will get the job done frequently as well. Dragon Breath and Energy Vortex are obviously riskier in Epic Elite. You have to be careful with them, but they're still awesome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    I am having a hard time believing your claims about DC/Spell Pen. What numbers do you have for them in DI?
    Draconic is just as good for Spell Pen as Magister, on an end-game wizard. In Draconic, you take Draconic Piercing Spellcraft and twist Magister Piercing Spellcraft. In Magister, you take Magister Piercing Spellcraft and twist Draconic Piercing Spellcraft. The only Spell Pen differences comes from the top of that redonkulously AP intensive tree in Magister (namely, Master of Necromancy). But you want to be able to hit good enough Spell Pen without climbing that tree, since it's an insane waste of AP.

    Edit: The Magister SP reduction (Arcane Adept) is also broken. It doesn't stack with The Staff of the Petitioner.
    Last edited by Faent; 11-21-2012 at 12:53 AM.

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