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  1. #81
    Hatchery Hero Sonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pHo3nix View Post
    Hardly so. You cannot compare SP and HP: a single SP pot is infinitely more powerful than any SF pots or heal scroll in the game. With 600 SP you can do a lot of things, with 400 more HP when mobs are hitting for 100+ you aren't going that far.
    Ok since you are not getting it, let's look at an example:

    Wizard king elite on a wizard-solo. You solo up to the wiz-king, kill him. Thank the gods for this rest shrine I just ddoor-d to. Shrines used- probably 3 if not all 4.

    Wizard king elite on my monk-solo. Shrines used- maybe 1.

  2. #82
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisdinus7 View Post
    Lay Waste + Adrenaline (this is supposed to work again), Everything is nothing, Quivering Palm, Stunning Fist, Drifting Lotus, Assassinate, consume, executioner's strike (the latter ones have gone through various levels of bugged, I grant), and etc.
    Almost all of those are ED effects. Quivering Palm and Stunning Fist are quite nice but compared to wail and mass hold moster, they don't compare. Perhaps with the enhancement pass we will get more toys like this for melee at lower levels and it won't be an issue, but for now, casters have all the best toys and an unlimited (potentially) ability to use them if they chug. Casters should have power, but there should be limits.
    Kaarloe - Degenerate Matter - Argonnessen

  3. #83
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pHo3nix View Post
    Well, that's what they would probably do, like they did with raid timers.

    It is bad for the health of the game to run a raid more than once every 3 days, they said. But it's so good for the health of the game to run it infinite times just paying. It makes perfect sense.

    It doesn't mean we should stop proposing nice ideas that they will probably twist to gain even more money.
    Honestly, I'd be fine if they worked like yugo pots, m'self, but then, I think I drink a pot maybe once a week if that.

    Doesn't mean we should go out of our way to make suggestions without being very very clear indeed on what would be an acceptable side effect knowing it'll get perverted if it's not specified.

  4. #84
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrkGrismer View Post
    If it bothers you then you could just refrain from drinking so many SP pots. It really can be resisted.
    While your statement is true, it misses the point.

    They are balancing the game to require them. (Ever run CITW harder than norm and not use a potion?)
    /sigh

  5. #85
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9Crows View Post
    since the game is about fun ...then yeah anything that achieves that is fine...i rarely see people drink pot after pot during quests,most people with bars dont ...fun rememeber ..if someone wants to blast away blast away blast away in a quest and its fun for them then why not ...if you dont like that option ...then dont join quests with blue bars.....other players deciding how other players should have fun is wrong in all aspects ..
    It would be interesting if the devs put in a measure like the kill count mechanic but which measured the mana pots each person drinks in a quest. You would begin to see just how many pots are drank on raids and epic elite quests. People do not admit that they drink pots, but so many of them do. I lead alot of raids and in my capacity as raid leader I am constantly paying attention to blue bars because I do not want people to drink pots because pots cost plat or money and it is a part of my job as a raid leader to keep that consumption down and improve people's enjoyment of the raid. What I see is pot drinking.

    Two points which others have mentioned in this thread about how mana pots usage can not be ignored. First, I pug or have pugs in the group all the time because it is not always easy to get 5 other people or 11 for raids that want to run a quest at any given time so pugging is necessary. Pugs drinking pots influences me and others like me that is just unavoidable. Second, quests have been made with pot drinking in mind as a requirement for completion. The best example for this is epic elite caught in the web with 400 mana point spell siphoning ability of LLOTH which makes having mana pots essential.

    I would like to also say that not having mana pots be a major factor in the game will enrich it. Changing the way mana pots work in ddo will make more builds desirable such as tanks or charisma based Favored souls or spellsingers or etc.. Changing mana pots will foster more strategies such as stealth, increase tactical play, etc..
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  6. #86
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonos View Post
    Ok since you are not getting it, let's look at an example:

    Wizard king elite on a wizard-solo. You solo up to the wiz-king, kill him. Thank the gods for this rest shrine I just ddoor-d to. Shrines used- probably 3 if not all 4.

    Wizard king elite on my monk-solo. Shrines used- maybe 1.
    The point is that wizard could just skip all the shrines and those in the next 15 quests if he wants to drink pots. He isn't slowed down at all IF he drinks, which is an option.
    Kaarloe - Degenerate Matter - Argonnessen

  7. #87
    The Hatchery teh_meh's Avatar
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    If you put a timer on pot drinking, then you have to ban muti-boxing. That's WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more P2P.

    Superior XP pots, those gotta go as well. And all tomes, cya.

    Awesome post OP, really thought this though, didn't ya?
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  8. #88
    Community Member Gunga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    While your statement is true, it misses the point.

    They are balancing the game to require them. (Ever run CITW harder than norm and not use a potion?)
    I thought Norg's point was that the game is too easy if you can drink pots constantly and that he liked the game more (and therefore we should all like the game more) if it was harder like in the olden days. If you suggest to make CITW easier to run, wouldn't that be missing Norg's point?

  9. #89
    Community Member tharveysinjin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    It is just high time the devs did this. I would suggest a one minute timer before a player can drink another mana pot. I do not have any problem with failing more quests because quite frankly if I have to drink mana pots to beat a quest I do not deserve to beat the quest. Failing quests just makes the victories that much more sweet and encourages higher quality game play. There are no mana pots in D&D.

    This game is too easy. 4 or 5 years ago DDO was so much more difficult. If you the devs are opposed to this on the normal or hard difficulties at least consider it for the elite difficulty. Thanks for striving to improve the game play.
    Not signed.

    I think better attention ought to be paid to how you play the game. Let someone else play the game they want. Otherwise we end up with things like:

    I think characters should only be able to carry one weapon. If I have to switch weapons to beat a quest I do not deserve to beat the quest.
    Treachery wears many masks, but none so treacherous as the mask of virtue.

  10. #90
    Community Member Jay203's Avatar
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    meh, to discourage players from spamming store pot, just make the store pots not have cooldown but imposes a 100 Universal Spellpower penalty for 1 minute
    or maybe something like Kargon's Ham which stuns you for 5 seconds?

    while the regular pots you find while questing doesn't have the side effects but has a 5 minute cooldown between use
    PS: Greensteel RUINED the game! and you all know it!
    less buffing, more nerfing!!!
    to make it easier for those of you that wants to avoid me in game, all my characters are in "Bladesworn Mercenaries"

  11. #91
    Community Member pHo3nix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonos View Post
    Ok since you are not getting it, let's look at an example:

    Wizard king elite on a wizard-solo. You solo up to the wiz-king, kill him. Thank the gods for this rest shrine I just ddoor-d to. Shrines used- probably 3 if not all 4.

    Wizard king elite on my monk-solo. Shrines used- maybe 1.
    And what is your point then? The wizard will probably complete the quest faster even if he uses all shrines...melees can go on way longer then caster, but way slower too.

    Think about something harder, like CitW EE. Try to run it without sp pots and then come back and tell us how the fact that sp pots are in the game isn't affecting our gameplay.
    Cannith: Hazrael--Nyal--Thalax

  12. #92
    Community Member legendlore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonos View Post
    This argument is flawed. Songs, dmg, boosts, etc.. are not the only means of dispatching mobs. While I agree that it is far more respectable to eventually learn spell point management... A wizard without SP is just an old man with a stick.
    In my opinion it isn't a flawed argument at all. I think it's good for the state of the game to question why limited uses per day was removed from caster classes but then added to martial classes, and likewise spells aren't the only means for casters to deal damage only the most efficient one (don't think I've ever made a caster in pnp that didn't carry a wand and/or crossbow/sword).

    For me since my pnp days casters has generally meant huge burst potential (enough to change an loosing encounter) but limited use, so you didn't want to waste it, you used wands/crossbows etc until that burst was needed. In ddo people talk as if casters are limited to burst, but they really aren't since the bypass (potions) and sla, dots etc exists and that is partially what this thread is about.

    But it has been beaten to death since forever (and while I don't know you I'm guessing we're never going to agree on the subject) so not going to derail further upon it in this thread.
    The Tarcane Death knight; a solo friendly plate wearing (0% spell failure) arcane knight.

  13. #93
    Hatchery Hero Sonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    The point is that wizard could just skip all the shrines and those in the next 15 quests if he wants to drink pots. He isn't slowed down at all IF he drinks, which is an option.
    That's not what we were discussing, we were discussing how melees can have unlimited hp, alive means dmg.

    SP gone, means old man with cane.

    I will however agree that the mechanics of certain things like CiTW that drain your SP pool did come off as self-serving over challenge needs.

    Another example is, you a pugging and a bunch of new people are in the Shroud. Sure, as a healer you can just quit(I've seen it). But for those that stay and have to heal a hoard of newbs, they should not have to succumb to letting them die or finish out IF he or she CHOOSES to stay in and chug a few, it that's all that is keeping them from finishing.

  14. #94
    Community Member Jay203's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tharveysinjin View Post
    I think better attention ought to be paid to how you play the game. Let someone else play the game they want. Otherwise we end up with things like:

    I think characters should only be able to carry one weapon. If I have to switch weapons to beat a quest I do not deserve to beat the quest.
    you can't always use that type of thinking to ignore the problems in the game
    as long as easy button exists in the game, someone's going to abuse it and create unfair advantage over others who doesn't abuse it or know about it

    either that or you start supporting segregation ingame that forces players to start banning specific types of player/classes from groups to avoid trivializing contents
    PS: Greensteel RUINED the game! and you all know it!
    less buffing, more nerfing!!!
    to make it easier for those of you that wants to avoid me in game, all my characters are in "Bladesworn Mercenaries"

  15. #95
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    And if there were an item that made someone invincible and have permanent 100x melee damage multiplier and 175% movement and swing speed and a rainbow jet stream coming out of their rear we should ignore that too? Unlimited power DOES effect anyone that person groups with. That is a fact. If I'm a melee running with a caster and he's nuking everything in sight and chugging to keep that up, it does effect my gaming experience. If I'm a caster grouping with the melee in my example above, it's the exact same thing, well except the rainbow jet stream from the rear. Casters shoot that out in front of them.
    personally I keep the nuking down fairly low even on my PM. If a melee's "got it" I take on the mobs he's not playing with. If he starts to get in trouble or is more or less barely moving it's red bar I will jump in.

    Sure it might add 30 seconds, heck maybe even 2 minutes to a completion but it sure saves me blue bar. I realize not all casters play that way but I like to think there is a reason I have never been punted from a group, whilst I have seen others get the boot.

    Of course if it's farming zerg runs that goes out the window, they want a PM in those quests to basically be the plow that clears the road.

    Honestly if Caster Joe is nuking the world taking 90% of the kills and more or less soloing the quest so you can ride in his wake there are 2 options after that quest.

    1. Think sweet ... easy XP and Completion
    2. Not group with the guy again (maybe even squelch if you are of that variety).

    Eventually things will even out and you won't be dealing with those guys any more. And honestly in my experience it just isn't that common to see a caster pot his way through a quest, it really really isn't.


  16. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    And if there were an item that made someone invincible and have permanent 100x melee damage multiplier and 175% movement and swing speed and a rainbow jet stream coming out of their rear we should ignore that too? Unlimited power DOES effect anyone that person groups with. That is a fact. If I'm a melee running with a caster and he's nuking everything in sight and chugging to keep that up, it does effect my gaming experience. If I'm a caster grouping with the melee in my example above, it's the exact same thing, well except the rainbow jet stream from the rear. Casters shoot that out in front of them.
    It sounds like you may have more of an issue with caster/melee power dynamic in general rather than pots. In my experience if you're in a group doing anything other than EE content the caster is gonna be nuking everything regardless of whether or not he's got pots. Some people can manage their blue bar and others can't and have to chug pots to keep it up. The fact remains though if you don't like the way someone is playing, whatever your reason may be, you don't have to play with them.

  17. #97
    Community Member pHo3nix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonos View Post

    Another example is, you a pugging and a bunch of new people are in the Shroud. Sure, as a healer you can just quit(I've seen it). But for those that stay and have to heal a hoard of newbs, they should not have to succumb to letting them die or finish out IF he or she CHOOSES to stay in and chug a few, it that's all that is keeping them from finishing.
    This is what's really wrong: if you (and your party) aren't ready for a challenge, you fail. Since when auto-success in everything is good and fun?
    Cannith: Hazrael--Nyal--Thalax

  18. #98
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Changing mana pots will foster more strategies such as stealth, increase tactical play, etc..
    Are you REALLY sure you want them to go through and change things for mechanics... again?

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    This! I want them to stop making content designed to push us into more store purchases.

    Keep fun stuff in the stores (armor kits, visual pets, hearts) but don't sell healing and mana and then balance the game for unlimited healing and mana because you can buy it in the store.

    Exactly what content is forcing everyone to have to make store purchasses to be able to succeed at completing a quest? Sure there is that one quest on Korthos that you have to buy something in the store, but those TP are reimbursed and it's part of the "tutorial" aspect of learning how to use the store.

    I may not have been here as long as many other people, but I have yet to encounter a quest that requires me to make a store purchasse to complete (not talking about RAIDs here, or that single korthos quest)

  20. #100
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    It is just high time the devs did this. I would suggest a one minute timer before a player can drink another mana pot. I do not have any problem with failing more quests because quite frankly if I have to drink mana pots to beat a quest I do not deserve to beat the quest. Failing quests just makes the victories that much more sweet and encourages higher quality game play. There are no mana pots in D&D.

    This game is too easy. 4 or 5 years ago DDO was so much more difficult. If you the devs are opposed to this on the normal or hard difficulties at least consider it for the elite difficulty. Thanks for striving to improve the game play.
    +1 OP

    I think that your idea is dumb as Hell, but it is always good reading material when you try to dictate how the game should be ran.


    EDIT: I just finished reading the thread and was curious about a few things. Tommorow can you make a thread about getting rid of Monks, Half-elfs, and repeat at cap? That should get me thru the weekend.
    Last edited by Vint; 11-16-2012 at 12:40 PM.
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