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  1. #441
    Community Member Rodasch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterspud View Post
    Smell my finger...
    I detect a faint aroma of....oh my god why would you do that!?

    *goes to wash his nostrils out with bleach*
    Ghallanda Server: Rodasch - Pale Master, Niccolina - Assassin, Mahlak - Radiant Servant, Etayn - Monster, Brikbaht - Tukaw, Khawstik - Pale Master
    Quote Originally Posted by kuroi-koibito View Post
    I didn't have the heart to tell him he looked like a fat guy in a Godzilla suit.

  2. #442
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodasch View Post
    You expect him to produce irrefutable proof that never in all his game play did he use a potion? Your expectations are unrealistic. That's like me asking you to prove you've NEVER put your finger inside a cat's anus. You simply cannot irrefutably prove that unless you've been on video camera for 100% of your life and can show us the tape.
    If you make a claim, you should be prepared to back it up. No matter how preposterous it is.

  3. #443
    Community Member Rodasch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roryk27 View Post
    If you make a claim, you should be prepared to back it up. No matter how preposterous it is.
    That's your opinion. I sure hope you never claim that you have never stuck your finger inside a cat's anus.
    Ghallanda Server: Rodasch - Pale Master, Niccolina - Assassin, Mahlak - Radiant Servant, Etayn - Monster, Brikbaht - Tukaw, Khawstik - Pale Master
    Quote Originally Posted by kuroi-koibito View Post
    I didn't have the heart to tell him he looked like a fat guy in a Godzilla suit.

  4. #444
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodasch View Post
    That's your opinion. I sure hope you never claim that you have never stuck your finger inside a cat's anus.
    I hope you never make any claims that you haven't done that either..

  5. #445
    Community Member Rodasch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roryk27 View Post
    I hope you never make any claims that you haven't done that either..
    I can claim it all day long, I'm not the one who thinks one has to irrefutably prove every statement or claim of NOT doing something to be true.

    Most rational people put the burden of proof on the person who claims someone DID something, as you can actually prove a positive...whereas proving a negative is tantamount to futility.

    If you're going to hold people to a standard, you get held to it as well...that's all I'm saying. You can, however, feel free to imagine my with my finger in a feline rectum to your heart's content if it floats your boat. I won't interfere with your fantasies.
    Ghallanda Server: Rodasch - Pale Master, Niccolina - Assassin, Mahlak - Radiant Servant, Etayn - Monster, Brikbaht - Tukaw, Khawstik - Pale Master
    Quote Originally Posted by kuroi-koibito View Post
    I didn't have the heart to tell him he looked like a fat guy in a Godzilla suit.

  6. #446
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodasch View Post
    I can claim it all day long, I'm not the one who thinks one has to irrefutably prove every statement or claim of NOT doing something to be true.

    Most rational people put the burden of proof on the person who claims someone DID something, as you can actually prove a positive...whereas proving a negative is tantamount to futility.

    If you're going to hold people to a standard, you get held to it as well...that's all I'm saying. You can, however, feel free to imagine my with my finger in a feline rectum to your heart's content if it floats your boat. I won't interfere with your fantasies.
    It seems sarcasm is not your strong suit...

    I don't need every statement proven. And really I don't even need the one quoted proven, since nearly all statements of never or always are untrue I can be pretty confident that this one is as well.

    Proving a negative is possible. There are many cases where someone had to prove that someone else FAILED to do something.

    Feel free to hold me to the standard that I hold others to, I would expect nothing else. All this talk of cat rears reminds me of a story that my vet tech friend told me.. Butt it will have to wait for another time.

  7. #447
    Community Member Rodasch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roryk27 View Post
    It seems sarcasm is not your strong suit...
    I'm actually very good at sarcasm. Your post, in context, gave no hint of sarcasm, but rather seemed quite literal.

    I don't need every statement proven. And really I don't even need the one quoted proven, since nearly all statements of never or always are untrue I can be pretty confident that this one is as well.
    You appear to have misconstrued the full meaning of the truism you are quoting here. You're also setting mental traps for yourself with your dismissal of the "nearly all" as including provision for some of them actually being truth.

    Proving a negative is possible. There are many cases where someone had to prove that someone else FAILED to do something.
    Proving that someone failed to do something when there is evidence to support such a claim is proving a positive. It is proving some isolated event did or did not occur at a specific interval of time that would have a specific and measurable result. These are the ways in which such is proven. (ie: "You did NOT pick me up from the airport, because I am still here!" )

    The defining characteristic of whether you are proving a "positive" or a "negative" is whether the claim is regarding an event or item which can or does present evidence of it's existence or occurrence. It's not whether you are trying to prove an action or an inaction. Essentially, "proving a negative" is the attempt to prove something which cannot, by it's nature, be proven, but rather can only be potentially disproved by logical processes. In these cases, failure to disprove is not proof of the claim, so it is said to be unable to be proven.

    Assuming something occurred, which would leave no observable effect simply because one cannot prove that it never occurred; or that someone did something in the past which would not leave an observable effect, simply because they cannot prove they never did it is an error in reasoning. (ie: "You must have stuck your finger in a cat's anus before because you cannot prove you have not")

    Read more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot
    or here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

    There is a reason that most rational courts of law place the burden of proof on the prosecution/complainant.

    Feel free to hold me to the standard that I hold others to, I would expect nothing else. All this talk of cat rears reminds me of a story that my vet tech friend told me.. Butt it will have to wait for another time.
    I would greatly love to hear this story, feel free to message it to me
    Ghallanda Server: Rodasch - Pale Master, Niccolina - Assassin, Mahlak - Radiant Servant, Etayn - Monster, Brikbaht - Tukaw, Khawstik - Pale Master
    Quote Originally Posted by kuroi-koibito View Post
    I didn't have the heart to tell him he looked like a fat guy in a Godzilla suit.

  8. #448
    Community Member legendlore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    How others use mnemonic potions only effects me when we are in the same party. If they choose to suck down mnemonics to subsidize their playstyle, I can no more stop them than anyone else.

    The argument that it does effect others requires exposure. If one is never exposed to a person that spends all their spare change on mnemonics than it can be said that a player doing that will have no effect on them.
    I've seen this argument a couple of times in this thread now. In my opinion it's not entirely true, existing game mechanics build the foundation for what is possible for future game mechanics. Recently we got a raid that drains spell points from casters, the question is would such an attack have been considered if ease of spell points regain wasn't possible? Yes I know there are shrines in there, but still I get the feeling that Turbine is dipping their toes to test the water.

    If spell points can be "healed" (doesn't matter if you do it yourself as long as the mechanic exists) the door is open for spell points to be hurt, just like the health bar. A timer may put an pebble in the cogwheels for how fast you can regain your spell points but it will also likely limit the amount that spell points is deemed to be fair to be hurt/drained.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rodasch View Post
    What I do not want to happen, is for this game to become even more of a "haves" vs. "have-nots" environment, where the divide between long time players and veterans is an insurmountable barrier to newer or less-skillful players from feeling like they can achieve any measure of real success and thus drive them away to newer games where they start on a more even footing.

    Spell point potions are a big part of softening the learning curve for newer players, especially with them remaining available both in game and from the store. Given their relative cost, however, they are not something most people will consider a permanent solution to conservation, but rather as crutches while they learn to walk.
    Well as I see it the "haves" are the only ones able to chain drink pots anyway (remember we're talking about a timer, not banning spell point potions), while the "have-nots" likely will never drink more than a pot at a time anyway and are thus unaffected.
    The Tarcane Death knight; a solo friendly plate wearing (0% spell failure) arcane knight.

  9. #449
    Community Member fmalfeas's Avatar
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    Spellpoints 'hurt'?

    Yeah, Dream Reavers and Arcane Oozes. They can strip SP fast, especially the oozes. Nasty suckers. And they do HP damage on top of it.

    So...spell point damage has been here for a good while.
    Last edited by fmalfeas; 11-20-2012 at 05:10 AM.

  10. #450
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Potions are not the problem, but the AI in this game is. If mobs can't be kited as easily as now, we wouldn't have this discussion about potions. The bad AI of mobs gives casters too much of an edge over other classes. Casters take less damage due to being out of range and mobs unable to land attacks consistently. If mobs manage to hit a walking target for approximately 90% of the time, the game would automatically be more balanced.

  11. #451
    Community Member legendlore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fmalfeas View Post
    Spellpoints 'hurt'?

    Yeah, Dream Reavers and Arcane Oozes. They can strip SP fast, especially the oozes. Nasty suckers. And they do HP damage on top of it.

    So...spell point damage has been here for a good while.
    It has and it has never bothered me, only place I ever noticed it in is Eye of the titan. I've never even noticed that the oozes drain spell points. Likely because both enemies require to be in close combat.

    The question is if it's a desirable mechanic, is the game improved if more of it is added? When the raid was released many players sounded like they we're none to happy about it, but it's hard to judge the player base from the forums.
    The Tarcane Death knight; a solo friendly plate wearing (0% spell failure) arcane knight.

  12. #452
    Hatchery Hero Sonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by legendlore View Post
    It has and it has never bothered me, only place I ever noticed it in is Eye of the titan. I've never even noticed that the oozes drain spell points. Likely because both enemies require to be in close combat.

    The question is if it's a desirable mechanic, is the game improved if more of it is added? When the raid was released many players sounded like they we're none to happy about it, but it's hard to judge the player base from the forums.
    One raid out of how many raids and quests. Don't you think if another important quest or raid did this, there would be mutiny and the veil would be lifted?

    What do you think Turbine is going to do, listen to a few whiners that don't know how to play their own game and keep out of other's games or keep on making money off of pots. Pretty sure those pots have paid for a great portion of the updates, kid's college tuition... the fact that the game is 6 years old and still going...

  13. #453
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    Quote Originally Posted by legendlore View Post
    Recently we got a raid that drains spell points from casters, the question is would such an attack have been considered if ease of spell points regain wasn't possible? Yes I know there are shrines in there, but still I get the feeling that Turbine is dipping their toes to test the water.
    On Lam the developers were emphatic that the spell point drain had nothing at all to do with selling SP pots, and should be "easily avoided" by hiding behind rocks at the proper time. So basically, they were saying that saying that the spell point attack was to sell SP pots was the same thing as saying Valeh's Fire attack was to sell Healing pots.

    Fair enough, it probably wasn't their motivation, but I agree with many who have commented that it is a bad design. That being said, I haven't done the raid yet (no LFMs for it the couple of times I had the time, and I'm not going to form a group for a raid I've never done).


    Quote Originally Posted by MajMalphunktion View Post
    *Handwraps. Yes we know. Here is my known issue for handwraps. Hand wraps in assorted flavors are borked.

  14. #454
    Community Member legendlore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonos View Post
    One raid out of how many raids and quests. Don't you think if another important quest or raid did this, there would be mutiny and the veil would be lifted?
    Don't know to be honest, every time I see a thread about something Turbine implemented it's mostly full of people saying "this is ok, but if was a little worse then it would be to far, then I'd quit". Maybe it's different people every time and people really are leaving, haven't checked. But I'm guessing it would be the same if another spell point drain was implemented.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonos View Post
    What do you think Turbine is going to do, listen to a few whiners that don't know how to play their own game and keep out of other's games or keep on making money off of pots.
    Don't call people whiners just because you disagree with them. Don't see why it should be so touchy to discuss a game mechanic where limited use is an factor that is able to be bypassed with money, I would have thought that it was discussed more than it is already.

    The point of the spell point drain example was that maybe people can't play as isolated in an mmo as many suggest (in this thread). If players have 100% fortification, mobs will get a way to bypass it, if players have to easy a way to keep their spell points a non issue, enemies will get a way to drain them most likely. I'm not saying we're there and that spell points is a non issue, but that how players play the game has effects outside of your play group, you can't just ignore the whole player base of an mmo, you will have to adapt to the changes their play style brings (like dungeon alert for example).

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonos View Post
    Pretty sure those pots have paid for a great portion of the updates, kid's college tuition... the fact that the game is 6 years old and still going...
    Well by that argument a timer on regular pots would be preferable, since it would likely bring more players to buy store pots? Or would that be the straw for the player base resulting in a loss? Not saying that is what I'd like, but it would most likely be what would happen in the end if a change was made.

    Honestly I don't think that spell potions is such a huge part of Turbines economy as people in this thread make it out to be (but since we're all just guessing any of us could be right).
    The Tarcane Death knight; a solo friendly plate wearing (0% spell failure) arcane knight.

  15. #455
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonos View Post
    One raid out of how many raids and quests. Don't you think if another important quest or raid did this, there would be mutiny and the veil would be lifted?

    What do you think Turbine is going to do, listen to a few whiners that don't know how to play their own game and keep out of other's games or keep on making money off of pots. Pretty sure those pots have paid for a great portion of the updates, kid's college tuition... the fact that the game is 6 years old and still going...
    And mana pots in the store for a little over 3 years.

  16. #456
    Hatchery Hero Sonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    And mana pots in the store for a little over 3 years.
    I get that. 3 years is not outside the realm of an MMO half-life at all, but multiple updates after 6 years is kind of telling of the play-ability and funding for the game(recent restructuring layoffs notwithstanding... key word: restructuring).

  17. #457
    Hatchery Hero Sonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by legendlore View Post
    Don't call people whiners just because you disagree with them. Don't see why it should be so touchy to discuss a game mechanic where limited use is an factor that is able to be bypassed with money, I would have thought that it was discussed more than it is already.

    I'm not saying we're there and that spell points is a non issue, but that how players play the game has effects outside of your play group, you can't just ignore the whole player base of an mmo, you will have to adapt to the changes their play style brings (like dungeon alert for example).
    I did not mean to call you a whiner directly, I probably get too passionate when people call for nerfs for things that they choose to let affect them. How Billy Joe Bob completes a quest is of no consequence to how I complete a quest. If someone does something I don't like in a quest, I can choose not to play with them, squelch them, or solo, or group with others.

    If they choose to pike the quest, that is far more disrupting than quaffing pots but you won't see me coming to the forums to ban piking. I don't make a forum thread "It's high time we make toons explode that sit at the entrance for too long". No, there are things in place to deal with players that play differently than we would like.

    Once again, this is not a PvP game. Someone works 40-50 hours a week or more wants to quaff some pots to kill epic Crateos solo or what have you, let em be. No one is up in arms when the melee toon goes in there spamming heal scrolls.

  18. #458
    Community Member legendlore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonos View Post
    I did not mean to call you a whiner directly, I probably get too passionate when people call for nerfs for things that they choose to let affect them.
    No worries, didn't take it personaly. I place myself in the "third camp", meaning that I'd like the change in principle, but fearing that the end result would be that only in-game potions are affected and store potions bypass it (like raid timer bypasses) I'd rather have things as they are, if those are the options, since I genaraly don't like rules that are bypassed with the store.

    It was just an remark regarding that it seems like it's a very touchy issue. Maybe it has already been discussed to death in the past and that is why, wouldn't know about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonos View Post
    How Billy Joe Bob completes a quest is of no consequence to how I complete a quest. If someone does something I don't like in a quest, I can choose not to play with them, squelch them, or solo, or group with others.

    If they choose to pike the quest, that is far more disrupting than quaffing pots but you won't see me coming to the forums to ban piking. I don't make a forum thread "It's high time we make toons explode that sit at the entrance for too long". No, there are things in place to deal with players that play differently than we would like.

    Once again, this is not a PvP game. Someone works 40-50 hours a week or more wants to quaff some pots to kill epic Crateos solo or what have you, let em be. No one is up in arms when the melee toon goes in there spamming heal scrolls.
    But it does have effects, that is what I've been trying to say and you are saying so as well. You argue that all those people using pots (that you don't group with) have possitive effects for you in terms of keeping the game running. I argue that the potion usage have negative effects in term of game design. Perhaps I'm just a "Negative Nancy" that fear and see the worst in the situation. So in a way we're saying the same things but choose to interprent it differently.

    It also seems to me like people see this to much in terms of absolutes, just because a potion has a timer it doesn't mean it's sudenly worthless. Players will still buy them and most will likely not even think about it. (This would of course depend on the timers lenght).
    The Tarcane Death knight; a solo friendly plate wearing (0% spell failure) arcane knight.

  19. #459
    Hatchery Hero Sonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by legendlore View Post
    It also seems to me like people see this to much in terms of absolutes, just because a potion has a timer it doesn't mean it's sudenly worthless. Players will still buy them and most will likely not even think about it. (This would of course depend on the timers lenght).
    Thanks for the excellent response. I would argue that basically we have one main raid that is brings the question the strongest, CiTW and the threat of future mechanics. So far there is no evidence of this and I would certainly welcome the debate if they go this route.

    The timer will not necessarily affect those who have learned spell point management and will by default teach those who aren't. But the other possible scenario of unintended consequences is that we might see less divines or casters, because let's face it, as much as I love playing a wizard, I have defaulted more and more to a self healing melee style because there is no cost at all. Besides the occasional raid timer bypass or armor kit, I really don't have to spend anything for it.

  20. #460
    Community Member illusion28's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tralfaz81 View Post
    /signed

    Almost all the more powerful melee feats have timers on them. We're limited to 20 seconds, five times a rest, with a massive cool down inbetween activation. Casters are really just limited by their blue bar.
    /not signed

    So, you think that spell cooldows for "tearing the world apart" don't screw a caster play?. I actually don't get it, Casters are limited by the fact that their spells have timers and eventually ran out. Melees can just whack away forever, until their red bars goes black, while casters get depleated by every metafeat they get (plus the lack of materials if you forgot to check and restack), plus their red bars aren't the highest (d4 d6 d8)

    I don't think they should put timers, each player has to try to manage it's own pot usage, SP, CW, SFP, whatever. No one can tell others when or when not to use an item they've gotten, paid or not paid. If a player wants to chug 10000 pots and buy more cause he feels that's the only way he'll win, then someone should teach him another way, but forcing them by putting timers, sorry but i think it's silly. You're not helping them learn, plus you're taking away money from turbine (which i don't think they'll like).
    Last edited by illusion28; 11-20-2012 at 12:41 PM.

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