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  1. #1501
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    Hmm, I see this "Put a timer on SP pots" idea and those that are going on that Turbine should implement it in the same light I see a smothering religious cult or sect, one that tries to force everybody else to live by their views, rules, laws. Because it's what's good for them, whether they know it or not, like it or not.

  2. #1502
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    Thank you. So I was not the only one who thought this debate switched to a religious lifestyle debate.
    Characters on Orien:
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  3. #1503
    Community Member cpito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smatt View Post
    Hmm, I see this "Put a timer on SP pots" idea and those that are going on that Turbine should implement it in the same light I see a smothering religious cult or sect, one that tries to force everybody else to live by their views, rules, laws. Because it's what's good for them, whether they know it or not, like it or not.
    You're just trying to nerf epic threads!
    "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and it may be necessary from time to time to give a stupid or misinformed beholder a black eye." - Miss Piggy
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  4. #1504
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    Yet there is almost violent nerd-rage insulting the OP's idea.
    Well, it's a terrible idea. He's basically telling everyone "I'm so very worried that you might complete a quest by dumping your mana and using a lot of pots that I want to restrict your pot usage, because how you play deeply affects my sense of right and wrong."

    It should be vehemently argued against because if his enjoyment of the game is contingent on restricting how others play that's his problem and his alone.

  5. #1505
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonos View Post
    Hyperbole you mean? :P

    Nothing I do in game affects the OP's level of enjoyment or play, so to me it's a the opposite of what you are saying here as it applies to MY game. It's not a PvP game, were it so I would completely be on board with making it balanced so that one person could not pwn another based on some factor that could be purchased or "abused". But it's not. It's a pretty open environment with regards to choice in how to play the game, build a character or establish communities with their own subset of rules, the forum has plenty of outlets for this very thing.

    People learn to conserve SP, it's inevitable. Some are quicker than others to learn. Let's have some patience with these folks and just go back to enjoying the game.
    Well said!

  6. #1506
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    Many people are trying to paint this discussion as "trying to force a playstyle".

    I cannot see into the hearts of everyone posting here and cannot promise you that noone is coming here with that motive. I can tell you that not everyone has that motive.



    If that is true, why are so many people saying that restricting sp potions will destroy the game and the fun of the game? (I happen to agree with the statement you made, but you've confused me with what appear to be contradictory statements.)
    First, thank you for answering my posts.

    Second, I don't see my statements as contradictory. I play artificers, a sorc and a heal-bot and I don't chug potions. Really, the rest shrines are liberal enough that I can quite easily make it from one to the other - there are a few times when I run out of mana, but the sorc cheap PRE spells, the cleric bursts and the artie versatility gets me through it most of the time. I've never bought a store potion and I never will.

    But I won't accept someone arguing to force a rule on me to limit my behavior. That's ridiculous. However he plays, maybe drinks a ton of pots and finds content too easy and wants to stop or something, it has nothing to do with me or anyone else. If he doesn't like store pots, he doesn't have to buy them. If he doesn't want to drink pots every five minutes, he doesn't have to. It's the same kind of argument that goes "my toon can't dish out as much damage as that OP class, so I want it nerfed!" As a few people have mentioned, this isn't a PVP game, so tough. If someone can't build a toon that's enjoyable to play, if they can't restrain themselves from using the DDO store to pass a quest, it's not my problem and they shouldn't make it my problem. If they don't use pay to win and get really annoyed by people who do, they should just drop those groups.

    Moreover, he's suggesting ways of Turbine making money through underhanded means by limiting in game pots and making the store bought ones more powerful. What if Turbine decided that all in game pots would have timers, but the pay to win ones would be timer free? I mean, why not? that'd would make sense from a marketing point of view - here, buy stuff!

    The bottom line is that a lot of people wish this game were more difficult and challenging. Restricting pot usage won't do that. I'm sure it's a very thin line from making overwhelmingly powerful quests to making quests that push you to the limit (and are memorable!). Perhaps what we need is tougher content in the elite setting or more levels than "normal, hard, elite." Add "nightmare"?

  7. #1507
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    Do you think that Turbine has adjusted game content to account for ship buffs?

    If no, then they are of little consequence other than to rush low level content.

    If yes, then you can see where turbine adjusted the difficulty of the game to account for the power that is available. Whether or not everyone uses it is irrelevant.

    (No, I'm not being condescending or asking a question with a "known" answer. I'm trying to debate without simply repeating the same argument the same way. Thank you for understanding.)
    You have a lot of good thoughts.

    I really don't think Turbine is adjusting content for store bought items. I really don't. I think they're trying their best to make an addictive, fair game. I think that's extremely difficult and I don't think they succeed most of the time, but I really think they are trying.

  8. #1508
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    OK, so timer on SP potions... Becasue it will MAKE people grow up and be uber aweseome.

    2. Remove all shrines within 5 minutes of a quest.

    3. No more quest re-entry period, you leave you can't get back into that instance.

    4. Remove most shrines from quests. So and so can do them without shrining so every body can and will)

    5. Remove Hireling from the game (Stop using those crutches)

    6. Limit melees to 3 of anykind of boost (Stop using your melee crutches)

    7. No more buffs from other plaeyrs, all buffs will now be self only. (Stop leaching from other players skills)

    8. No more rezzing in quests (You die, you suck and should learn from the ubers)

    9. No more ship buffs.

    10. You can only do each quest 10 times, since you will already know what's goign to happen in the quest it's too easy after that.

    There the game has now been tuned to the 6-7 year has everything multi-TR super-gamer. Everybody msut follow this persons playstyle, period. Why because he says so.

    It's all fixed....

  9. #1509
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodasch View Post
    No they're not.

    When Red bars run out, you're dead and can't do anything.
    When Blue bars run out, you're still alive and able to use items, clickies, etc.

    When Red bars run out, everyone is affected.
    Only casters are even affected by the loss or gain of spell points.
    Incorrect. Let me fix that for you.

    When your Red bars run out, you're dead and can't do anything.
    When the raid healers Blue bars run out, EVERYONE is dead and can't do anything.

    Mana potions are orders of magnitude more powerful than healing supplies like scrolls wands and cure pots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodasch View Post
    Keeping someone alive allows for the use of every single power/ability in the game for longer. Period. Red bars are more powerful than blue bars, because they represent the ability to continue doing ANYTHING you are able to do.

    If your red bar runs out, it doesn't matter how much blue bar you had left.
    And when the raid healers blue bar runs out, it doesnt matter how much red bar everyone else has left. In a raid that is an actual challenge (the environment where people actually use mana potions the most) the raid group now has a small amount of time to live unless that healer carries them by guzzling potions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodasch View Post
    Keeping red bars from running out on your own party while draining the red bars of the enemies is kinda the whole point of 99% of the game. I'd say they're pretty important.

    Even blue bars are devoted entirely to that pursuit...affecting red bars, either directly or indirectly.
    See, it looks like you understand that blue bars = red bars, yet you are denying the importance of the blue bar. If I have 70 points of mana (far less than one mana potion will give me) I can heal 12 people up to full health using one spell. In order to do that with scrolls youd need to use 1 scroll per person minimum even on a toon with scroll amp casting on toons with heal amp. The mass heal can save the entire raid in the same amount of time the scroll healer can save one person. I can use mass heal several times per mana potion consumed, which makes it orders of magnitude more powerful than heal scrolls and other self healing supplies, as I claimed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodasch View Post
    Your argument is invalidated.
    My argument just took your argument out for a nice seafood dinner, and never called it again! Whammy!
    Last edited by Chai; 12-06-2012 at 12:31 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  10. #1510
    Community Member Gunga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Incorrect. Let me fix that for you.

    When your Red bars run out, you're dead and can't do anything.
    When the raid healers Blue bars run out, EVERYONE is dead and can't do anything.
    Incorrect. Let me educate you.

    When the raid healer runs out of mana, he drinks a pot and the self healers of the group step up. The raid finishes and everyone wins.

  11. #1511
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunga View Post
    Incorrect. Let me educate you.

    When the raid healer runs out of mana, he drinks a pot and the self healers of the group step up. The raid finishes and everyone wins.
    Incorrect. You should refer to the part of my post where I state the following: In a raid that is an actual challenge (the environment where people actually use mana potions the most) the raid group now has a small amount of time to live unless that healer carries them by guzzling potions.

    Im not talking about having a group that could run elite but runs normal just for completions. Im talking about a group that is in an environment where they are actually challenged.

    Are you actually trying to say that mana potions are NOT more powerful than heal scrolls or cure pots?
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  12. #1512
    Community Member Xynot2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singular View Post
    First, thank you for answering my posts.

    Second, I don't see my statements as contradictory. I play artificers, a sorc and a heal-bot and I don't chug potions. Really, the rest shrines are liberal enough that I can quite easily make it from one to the other - there are a few times when I run out of mana, but the sorc cheap PRE spells, the cleric bursts and the artie versatility gets me through it most of the time. I've never bought a store potion and I never will.

    But I won't accept someone arguing to force a rule on me to limit my behavior. That's ridiculous. However he plays, maybe drinks a ton of pots and finds content too easy and wants to stop or something, it has nothing to do with me or anyone else. If he doesn't like store pots, he doesn't have to buy them. If he doesn't want to drink pots every five minutes, he doesn't have to. It's the same kind of argument that goes "my toon can't dish out as much damage as that OP class, so I want it nerfed!" As a few people have mentioned, this isn't a PVP game, so tough. If someone can't build a toon that's enjoyable to play, if they can't restrain themselves from using the DDO store to pass a quest, it's not my problem and they shouldn't make it my problem. If they don't use pay to win and get really annoyed by people who do, they should just drop those groups.

    Moreover, he's suggesting ways of Turbine making money through underhanded means by limiting in game pots and making the store bought ones more powerful. What if Turbine decided that all in game pots would have timers, but the pay to win ones would be timer free? I mean, why not? that'd would make sense from a marketing point of view - here, buy stuff!

    The bottom line is that a lot of people wish this game were more difficult and challenging. Restricting pot usage won't do that. I'm sure it's a very thin line from making overwhelmingly powerful quests to making quests that push you to the limit (and are memorable!). Perhaps what we need is tougher content in the elite setting or more levels than "normal, hard, elite." Add "nightmare"?
    Ok- at lv- elite- proof is in the poison. ONE rest shrine. Play a caster and not use potions. You'll be a pocket paper weight.

  13. #1513
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    I'm still shocked that this is a problem of the magnitude that really is getting folks bent.

    It's a clickie on a bar in a game I play. It's part of that game. I may or may not click it. Somehow, this things has such an impact on other people's sense of enjoyment and progress that it must be changed ... and urgently so in their mind.


    I'm still kinda astounded. Flabbergasted maybe? Flabbergastounded?
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  14. #1514
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xynot2 View Post
    Ok- at lv- elite- proof is in the poison. ONE rest shrine. Play a caster and not use potions. You'll be a pocket paper weight.
    Have done this in permadeath several times now, and what youre saying is false. Anyone who played a caster in there was able to contribute quite well. Note that contribution does not necessarily mean padding kill tallys and bragging about high damage numbers in a PD guild.
    Last edited by Chai; 12-06-2012 at 12:45 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  15. #1515
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    I'm still shocked that this is a problem of the magnitude that really is getting folks bent.

    It's a clickie on a bar in a game I play. It's part of that game. I may or may not click it. Somehow, this things has such an impact on other people's sense of enjoyment and progress that it must be changed ... and urgently so in their mind.


    I'm still kinda astounded. Flabbergasted maybe? Flabbergastounded?
    My dog in this fight: Youve witnessed the sheer amount of caster nerfs over the years with the rest of us, then they go and put something that is far more powerful into the game than anything they nerfed for "game balance" reasons, which is why game balance has to be brought up when this ginormous elephant in the room trumps anything they already made an adjustment to using the same "game balance" excuse.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  16. #1516
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Have done this in permadeath several times now, and what youre saying is false. Anyone who played a caster in there was able to contribute quite well. Note that contribution does not necessarily mean padding kill tallys and bragging about high damage numbers in a PD guild.


    Post some fraps of your awesome solo perma-death play Chai... How about an EE, even a Snitch will do.

    Show it..... Back-up your claims....

  17. #1517
    Community Member Xynot2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Have done this in permadeath several times now, and what youre saying is false. Anyone who played a caster in there was able to contribute quite well. Note that contribution does not necessarily mean padding kill tallys and bragging about high damage numbers in a PD guild.
    I realize there are people, including myself, who can do it. But the average DDO player (average meaning between newb and powergamer) will die.

    The problem I'm having with this whole discussion is the very narrow point of view there has to be in order to say SP pots unbalance the game. It may unbalance your style but not the whole game. And the people who keep referencing DnD PnP rules... this game is LOOSELY based on DnD. There isn't a PnP toon that could drag around several pieces of armor and weapons and move( I have 37 TH weapons on my barbarian). Encumbrance would be ridiculous. Not having a timer on SP pots unbalancing? PUH Leeez. At least be consistent and call for weight restrictions as well. Or how about the amount of HP and SP? lets reduce that too. I mean, if you're going to be consistent and "balanced", you need that too... right? The idea that SP pots need a timer to balance the game is ridiculous at best.

  18. #1518
    Hatchery Hero Sonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smatt View Post
    Post some fraps of your awesome solo perma-death play Chai... How about an EE, even a Snitch will do.

    Show it..... Back-up your claims....
    I've asked for this before. Number of videos produced: 0. Because if it were me, I'd want that "Booyah!" moment, it beats trying to dazzle people with untrue statements.

    I sincerely would like to see you do EE Snitch on your caster, with no SP regeneration but the echoes of power. Do the community the real and honest service of showing us how it's done.
    Last edited by Sonos; 12-06-2012 at 01:06 PM.

  19. #1519
    Community Member Gunga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post

    Are you actually trying to say that mana potions are NOT more powerful than heal scrolls or cure pots?
    Of course not. I'm trying to get you to be a little more realistic with your extreme scenarios.

  20. #1520
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smatt View Post
    The onyl change I see that is even remotely possible here is taht this thread has given Trubine the idea to put timers on loot generated SP pots, and to NOT put them on store pots..... And if that happens.. I'm sure yourself and Matt will be beloved DDO wide.....
    Slow down...

    One, I've already agreed, just ask Sonos, that a timer will not work. Pre-drinking will actually make it worse.

    Two, I actually came here to discuss it. My mind wasn't made up and I keep getting accused of. I have actually decided that the timer is a bad idea. See point one.

    Three, the one person who keeps shouting at the top of her lungs that turbine will do what you said, has also been the most consitantly rude in this thread and has the dubious honor of being the ONLY person on my ignore list since launch. If Turbine puts timers on in game loot and not store bought ones, I think it would be a tragedy. I also think you should thank her and not Matt, Chai, nor I. I for one will be quiting if that happens, so maybe you should blame me, I won't be here to care. Guess I could take the bullet in that case.
    /sigh

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