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  1. #1321
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    No.
    Characters on Orien:
    Wanzer/ Klingtanz/ Incanta Superior/ Mercantus

  2. #1322
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    This is dumb. Just take them out of the store.

    I play EE content all the time and I barely ever drink pots. I have around 100 (chest looted) ones on every toon. They are for serious emergencies.

    Timers are not a good idea.

    /notsigned

  3. #1323
    Community Member Gunga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NancyD View Post
    FFS, we are not stupid.
    I've got screenshots...

  4. #1324
    Community Member Dimack's Avatar
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    Default This is still going?

    I can't believe this thread is still going. They will NOT be removed from the store! Mana pots are one of the DDO Store's best selling items. People buying points and spending them in the store and buying more points and spending them in the store is exactly what is keeping this game going. If people stop spending money, then the game goes away. The real quest is why would you want to kill this game, because telling people to stop spending money on it is the way to kill it.

    Drinking pots or buying them from the store has been going on for years and the game is still here, so saying that it's the mana pots that are killing ddo is a meritless argument. Further, you have absolutely nothing to support the argument that putting a timer on pot use would reduce the consumption of pots per quest/raid. I would argue that it would in fact have the exact opposite result. People currently wait until low or out of sp to use a pot. Instead of waiting until this point, people would begin drinking pots as soon as their pot timer was done and end up wasting a lot of unneeded mana gained from these pots.


    Finally, my take from reading this thread, and every single person I’ve spoken to in game that doesn’t read these forums, is that a vast majority of the player base is opposed to changing the current system. I’d find it hard to believe turbine would shoot itself in the foot and alienate so many of its paying customers to please a (looks at the 67 plus pages of this topic) vocal minority.
    -Die (teh_troll's unofficial legal counsel)
    Captain’s Crew of Ghalanda
    Characters: Diemmak – Dimack – Dianotherday – Dieinafire – Elieath – Inonelite – Nowyoudie - LivenletDie - DIhard


  5. #1325
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    Eon, help me out here. I thought the game was balanced on a 4 man group without mana potions. Did I miss where this has changed?

    (I've said it before I'm old and maybe like an old man who remembers "back in the day", playing since lauch has given me a "first learned, best learned" memory for the rules and how the game works.)
    Which 4 characters is it balanced around, considering the differences in relative power of the various classes?

    All I'm saying is that finite SP was never an enjoyable mechanic for many people.
    Having to micromanage SP is not an exactly thrilling thing to do and the game has already changed in many ways to make it less necessary to worry about SP conservation techniques.

    Personally, I would like to see some limit, perhaps a 1 minute timer on SP pots in Elite quests, but I think that would have the exact opposite affect than Maddmatt thinks. There will be less people willing to join his Elite runs without the cushion of SP pots to make up for mistakes while learning the Elite quest in the first place.

    People generally play games to release stress, not to add to it.

  6. #1326

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrkGrismer View Post
    So are you saying that Sorcerers and Favored Souls should have timers on them since they have more SP?

    2000 SP vs. 1000 SP is meaningless if it only takes 500 SP to make it to the next shrine. It is also meaningless if a person's playstyle makes it so he/she wants to use 4000 SP.

    The 2000 SP vs. 1000 SP argument is also COMPLETELY interchangeable with the 1000 HP vs 500 HP argument, so that just takes the left turn onto the 'if you want to put timers on sp pots you MUST want to put timers on hp pots as well'.
    No, I didn't say that at all because the both have other advantages and disadvantages. That's just an attempt to twist things by moving from an apples to apples comparison into an apples to oranges comparison.

    To be clear, for just in case you missed it, a sorcerer with 8000 SP available can do far more than a sorcerer with 3000 SP available.

    I you want to compare the actual item (SP potions) you need to set a constant to your other variables.

  7. #1327
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    Take them out of the store and loot tables.

    Booltleggers need work too!


    ColdCapone
    bred of an Ice Flenser and a Djinni Ravensguard
    "You people are insatiable." - Tarrant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodasch View Post
    I do, it's true. I have a stick figure drawing with the word "Coldest" drawn above it and an arrow pointing from the name down to the drawing...

  8. #1328
    Hatchery Hero Sonos's Avatar
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    The beauty and allure of this game are it's options:

    1. You can build crazy builds with crazy specs.

    2. You zerg or you can flowersniff.

    3. You can play solo or group in pugs, channel folks, guildies.

    4. You can learn the game at your own pace and if it takes you a year or two to get to be as uber as the nerf herders, so be it. Do not feel ashamed, these folks know every aspect of the quests and raids, they know exactly where every spawn is, where every shrine is, when to juke and when to jive.. Sure they expect you to be at that level or die, but again, the beauty of this game is that if you need a bit of help(maybe these people are too busy dropping nerf requests to drop some pragmatic and useful knowledge on you) it is there until you get better... at your own speed.


    Vive la liberté.

  9. #1329
    Community Member mobrien316's Avatar
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    When I played PnP on my wizard, I recall using a light crossbow (for lousy damage) the vast majority of the time and "saving" the spells for either emergencies or boss fights. Having a very limited number of spell slots meant you had to use them sparingly and intelligently because there was really no way to get them back without resting, which most DM's wouldn't let you do in the middle of a dungeon.

    Scrolls were expensive and rare (in my campaigns) and not really a viable alternative. They were also saved for emergencies and boss fights. The same was true for wands.

    I also recall starting at level 1 with 1d4 hit points and hoping the rest of the group could keep me alive until I got a few levels and could survive a single hit from a kobold or a goblin.

    Anyway... It was a steep learning curve when I started playing DDO. The vast amount of spells I could cast between shrines called for an entirely different system of play from what I was used to.

    I thoroughly enjoy DDO, but I have never seen it as needing "balance" by nerfing this class or that class. Depending on an individual's play style, some character classes are "easy" to play, and others are more difficult. Every player can make the game as hard and as challenging as they wish it to be by a variety of methods, just a few of which are: playing permadeath; not min-maxing their stats; not passing twink gear from higher level alts; only running elite while under-level; not TR'ing, not using hirelings; not using SP pots, etc...

    Individuals can insert sufficient variety on their own; there is no need to call for system-wide nerfs or restrictions on things you are not required to use in the first place.
    All on Thelanis: Archenpaul Sixblade, Archernicus Thornwood, Gregorovic Redcloak, Hermanius Brightblade, Jaklomeo Evermug, Jonathraxius Kane, and Praetoreus Silvershield.

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    Cogito ergo summopere periculosus.

  10. #1330

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodasch View Post
    Really? Balancing them by recast timers is a fallacy?

    Spell points you can use per unit of time is not the real issue? Then why do you consider the rate at which you can use a potion to be relevent versus the rate you get sp back from Divine Vitality, Yugo int potions, Torc/Con-opp, and all the other sources you said are ok becuase they're "limited" by how much they restore over time.

    You keep shooting your "total sp" argument in the foot with your other arguments and are in fact reinforcing my argument that it's an "over time" issue and that balance is measured in how much sp can be spent over a given period of time. Or how many of a particular spell can be in effect at a given time (stacking).

    Certainly your pool depth affects your sp use over time values, but it simply sets a parameter, not the complete picture. The idea that arcanes should be useless and pike when they run out of sp has been squashed by the devs with the implementation of not only SLA's, but Echoes of power. That wasn't even the first sign that such lines of thinking were no longer the current vision, simply one of the final nails in the coffin.

    The amount of spell damage total versus the amount of melee damage total per mission is mostly irrelevent and moot for this discussion, and do not come into play in balancing content (or "class balance" for that matter). The measure is damage over unit of time, and that is why haste was changed, why TWF was nerfed, why WOP got nerfed, why Instakills were almost universally nerfed, why bladebarrier, firewall, etc were nerfed.

    Each tier of play (based on mission level, difficulty, and scaling) has a certain expectation of damage per unit of time (including instant kills), as well as a certain expectation of a certain amount of healing per unit of time. This is how monster density, hit points, damage, etc are determined for the missions. Boss monster fights, too, are tuned versus the amount of time it "should" take to defeat them given a balanced party, which includes spell casters with sufficient spell points to be a fully impacting factor in the fight. No encounter is designed with the notion that "ha ha, we should have run the casters out of sp by now, so we can tune down this monster so the poor pathetic melees can beat it down without their help"....it's just not how things work.

    Sure they COULD design it that way if they were foolish, but they are not.

    Potions and other means to restore sp are there to ensure everyone can remain productive even when they've not played conservatively. Just like shrines and such also restore action boosts (not saying they're completely equivalent, just pointing out that there are methods for ALL character types to be able to for all intents and purposes go at 110% the full time and "power through" content, if they're willing to spend extra time and money on it).

    Content is balanced based on instantaneous average potential damage per unit of time (both actual damage, and healing "damage"). It's just a fact of modern MMO's, and why experienced MMO players use the term "DPS" (damage per second) to measure the true effectiveness of damage dealing classes in games, rather than DPM (damage per hit) or Damage per cast.

    A Barbarian (just for example) can lay down literally MILLIONS of 4 digit melee hits in any given NON-TIMED instance (practically while AFK), without the expenditure of a single spell point, action boost, or consumable, should they be given ample time and the proper gear. Why would you think it's fair to artificially cap a spell caster's TOTAL potential damage per instance based on maximum spell points available per instance and call it balance?

    Where you balance them is the damage they can deal over a unit of time...it's the only marginally fair yard-stick for two completely different forms of damage.
    In the context I was reading your previous post, yes the spell timers are a fallacy, because the point was SP potions refill SP faster than we can use it and while the timers can balance out specific spells they do not stop us from using the SP continuously because we simply use the SP on another spell simultaneously to the cool down and therefore still allowing for the SP to be spent at a faster rate.

    For the timers on spells to impact the ability to spend SP we would need to be in a position where all spells are simultaneously on cool down. Since that isn't the case the cool down timers on spells do not actually impact the rate we can refill or spend SP.

    When 2 exact same builds in the exact same position with the exact same skill and the only difference is the SP potions there is a huge gain in effectiveness with the potions. The timers are the same on both already on one will still run out of juice first and the other will still do more overall damage and maintain mana dump longer and refill faster.

    This is similar to having multiple shrines and SP dumping and we know that this is effect. It's just as effective as having a lot of shrines vs not having a of shrines except the SP can be renewed faster than a shrine.

  11. #1331
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    I do have to wonder... if pots and by association the SP clickies get put onto a long cooldown...

    What of cleric DVs?

  12. #1332
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    Are you playing permadeath? Because if you are soloing permadeath on elite from 1-25 and still saying the game is too easy, I will /sign your suggestion.

    If you are not... Then you keep your easy buttons that you like and let everyone else keep the ones they like.
    Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt, still have epic items on my permadeath toons from when epics were harder and blanket immunities were in place. There are entire guilds on each server who have also been there, done that, and we had to crank out a larger batch of T-shirts for.

    "Too easy" is a matter of opinion. Saying it can be completed on all difficulties without using mana potions is a fact however.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  13. #1333

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    Quote Originally Posted by GermanicusMaximus View Post
    Its clear from this thread that casters currently have no effective limit on spell points, and in fact spell points just

    1) Complicate the appearance of the game to new players, potentially causing them to decide to play other games

    2) Make the game code more complicated, introducing the potential for bugs. In fact, when I experienced the dread "stuck in wall" bug yesterday my entire screen (aside from tool bars and other UI elements) was a very pleasing shade of light/medium blue, indicating that Eberron is actually drenched in spell points (the bug occurred in the Rushmore Cannith challenge, so I can only surmise the same is true for Forgotten Realms). Those spell points, struggling to get free, could also be causing "death by falling", server lag, and persistent high unemployment across the world.

    MadMatt and his cronies have convinced me that the only reasonable course of action is to completely remove the blue bar from casters and officially give them unlimited spell points. As a side effect, that will also allow me to free up several gear slots that can be used for more useful items. Of course, it will also remove the need for mana pots, both those found in game and the ones purchased from the DDO Store.

    Please, "Make it so!"
    I smell sarcasm. I think that's sarcasm. I hope that's sarcasm.

    I want to disagree with the first statement. It's more like the ability to take burst abilities and turn them into sustained bursts, if that makes senses. I'll clarify if needed.

  14. #1334

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunga View Post
    I've got screenshots...
    If it's a screenshot of a bard doing something stupid that could have been me. I feel ashamed and I don't even know what you saw.

  15. #1335
    Hatchery Hero Sonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
    When 2 exact same builds in the exact same position with the exact same skill and the only difference is the heal scrolls there is a huge gain in effectiveness with the heal scrolls.
    My response added in bold.

  16. #1336
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    I do have to wonder... if pots and by association the SP clickies get put onto a long cooldown...

    What of cleric DVs?
    Cleric DVs already have a cooldown. Once you use them they regen at a specific rate. Item based SP clickies are #/rest. Bard song is 2 mana per tick, and has to be used far in advance to have a larger impact. Eardweller larva is 2 mana per tick as well. They all have limitations built in.

    I wish the game had more stuff like these things and no limitless mana potions at all. There would be alot more strategy involved in their usage rather than spam, run out, guzzle, rinse/repeat.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  17. #1337
    Community Member Xynot2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    "Too easy" is a matter of opinion. Saying it can be completed on all difficulties without using mana potions is a fact however.
    Who's fact? Yours or the guy who came in with the level up stones and has a steeper learning curve because he didnt learn through the levels? Or the guy who will never get how to do it with out potions?

    If you want timers on potions, make a guild where you keep track of it and enforce that rule for your guild but leave the rest of DDO to their style.

    FYI- I dont know why anyone (including me) is still arguing about this. Turbine will not remove a cash cow from the store. Seriously... how many hair styles and pets are you gonna buy? 1? 2? How many potions are people going to buy? It's $$ in their pockets. Why would they EVER limit it?

    Edit: page 67... not sure there is enough discussion left to get to 100 pages.

  18. #1338
    Hatchery Hero Sonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt, still have epic items on my permadeath toons from when epics were harder and blanket immunities were in place. There are entire guilds on each server who have also been there, done that, and we had to crank out a larger batch of T-shirts for.

    "Too easy" is a matter of opinion. Saying it can be completed on all difficulties without using mana potions is a fact however.

    Oh lawd. Please post the video of you soloing on your caster, without SP clickies or pots, Belly in the Beast on EE so we can put this argument to bed.

  19. #1339

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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    Which 4 characters is it balanced around, considering the differences in relative power of the various classes?

    All I'm saying is that finite SP was never an enjoyable mechanic for many people.
    Having to micromanage SP is not an exactly thrilling thing to do and the game has already changed in many ways to make it less necessary to worry about SP conservation techniques.

    Personally, I would like to see some limit, perhaps a 1 minute timer on SP pots in Elite quests, but I think that would have the exact opposite affect than Maddmatt thinks. There will be less people willing to join his Elite runs without the cushion of SP pots to make up for mistakes while learning the Elite quest in the first place.

    People generally play games to release stress, not to add to it.
    It was an old old quote from Eckleberry way back when on balancing content for 4 players where 5 or 6 was actually considered a large group. I think they were doing the 'balanced party' thing at the time still and making it with said balanced party and trying again with a group of 4 bards for comparison.

    I was wondering if the content is still meant to be balanced against a 4 person group or not but considering the varying difficulty levels and scaling I thought the 4 man balance idea become moot from that point on.

    That concept is more like it's archived as prehistoric these days.

  20. #1340

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldest View Post
    Take them out of the store and loot tables.

    Booltleggers need work too!


    ColdCapone
    I was just imagining that. An announcement on Lamma that this change is taking effect followed by mass store purchases before it happens followed by "we changed our minds due to player feedback".

    DOH!

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