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  1. #321
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Kinda like when someone completely understands that the guy who made the claim that casters arent so far ahead of melee in power is completely incirrect, but because its chai who pulled his card on that anyhow, you have to automatically disagree and somehow find a way to stick up for him, even though you know full well thats a foolish claim.
    As I don't care to get into an argument of rehashed statements, as you have made it clear you will not back your claims with anything more than your forum name, I will merely address this point: I would not believe that ANYONE who played a caster a lot would say they never use pots truthfully.

    BTW, endless mana pots argument is a strawman. I have, in three years of playing, only met a couple people with endless mana pots...and even that doesn't make up for lack of experienced play....and not being a FvS had more to do with not wanting to heal ungrateful idiots than not wanting to drink pots (I've drunk more pots since going arcane, as I try to get solo achievements now).
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  2. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by WruntJunior View Post

    BTW, endless mana pots argument is a strawman. I have, in three years of playing, only met a couple people with endless mana pots...and even that doesn't make up for lack of experienced play....and not being a FvS had more to do with not wanting to heal ungrateful idiots than not wanting to drink pots (I've drunk more pots since going arcane, as I try to get solo achievements now).
    Nonsense. Look at the "achievements" forum.

    Look at all the divines who either don't pug at all or TR'd into non-divines so they don't feel pressured into power-drinking bad players through content. A few morons get carried through stuff, think it's normal, don't understand that they are terrible and don't see the need to improve.

    A cooldown will not affect anyone who drinks a pot here and there, or even a few a quest. It would force people to learn tactics in difficult content and not just power through it.
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  3. #323
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    whats funny is that people are quick to say they dont or they dont know anyone to drink many, if at all, mana pots. so does that mean the people who dont respond on the forums are the ones that support the store? they are the lushes? that is just ridiculous.

    i see people guzzle mana pots all the time, in any random quest at any random level. ive done it on my ranger even (not store bought). some people have and are willing to spend the TP/RL $ on mana pots and drink them down like they just dont care. in a regular quest, it doesnt happen very often unless its elite ETK or A New Invasion. in raids you see this more often, especially in LOB. we might not see it that much in raids/quests where there are epic level players joining lower level players like VOD and Shroud because they are normally walked all over. it was a different story when cap was 20 and people were trying to complete elite quests/raids and it wasnt uncommon to see blue bars drinking pots.

    some people say they know maybe a couple people who guzzle endless mana pots, but i can come up with a much bigger number that is in the dozens who do this. believe me or not, dont care, but one thing i learned on the forums is that 85% of what is said is probably ********.

  4. #324
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    Well, since melees can do MASSIVE amounts of damage, if built and equipped correctly... I think it'st ime to put a timer on melee attacks.... Say afer 50,000 points of damage they have to wait 5 minutes till they can attack again.

  5. #325
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    No.Its stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    Nonsense. Look at the "achievements" forum.

    Look at all the divines who either don't pug at all or TR'd into non-divines so they don't feel pressured into power-drinking bad players through content. A few morons get carried through stuff, think it's normal, don't understand that they are terrible and don't see the need to improve.

    A cooldown will not affect anyone who drinks a pot here and there, or even a few a quest. It would force people to learn tactics in difficult content and not just power through it.

    Those people dont have what it takes to play divines,if you cant say to people you wont carry them through then dont play.

  6. #326
    Community Member mobrien316's Avatar
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    I drink a pot whenever I feel like it, and I don't think twice. I don't feel like it all the time, but I drink more than one or two per year (a lot more.)


    Regarding all the talk about how pay to win the game is, I still just don't see it. There is "pay for convenience" in the store, but not "pay to win."

    Since some people seem to consider store bought SP pots as "pay to win," why is that? If I have my caster and non-caster characters farm Vale quests and choose major mnemonic pots for each end reward until I have a stack of 100, and then I give that stack to my sorcerer and he nukes his way through a bunch a quests until he runs out, how is that any different from buying a stack of 100 in the store and doing the exact same thing?

    No one is "winning" anything; Turbine is just wisely offering convenience in exchange for money. People can get to the same point (a stack of SP pots) without spending any money, or they can spend a few dollars and get there quicker.
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  7. #327
    Community Member Gunga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    Nonsense. Look at the "achievements" forum.

    Look at all the divines who either don't pug at all or TR'd into non-divines so they don't feel pressured into power-drinking bad players through content. A few morons get carried through stuff, think it's normal, don't understand that they are terrible and don't see the need to improve.

    A cooldown will not affect anyone who drinks a pot here and there, or even a few a quest. It would force people to learn tactics in difficult content and not just power through it.
    No.

  8. #328
    Community Member fco-karatekid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hordo View Post
    ...know that I actually don't suck on my Cleric ...
    well, THAT's a relief.

  9. #329
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WruntJunior View Post
    As I don't care to get into an argument of rehashed statements, as you have made it clear you will not back your claims with anything more than your forum name, I will merely address this point: I would not believe that ANYONE who played a caster a lot would say they never use pots truthfully.

    BTW, endless mana pots argument is a strawman. I have, in three years of playing, only met a couple people with endless mana pots...and even that doesn't make up for lack of experienced play....and not being a FvS had more to do with not wanting to heal ungrateful idiots than not wanting to drink pots (I've drunk more pots since going arcane, as I try to get solo achievements now).
    And what are you backing your claims with exactly.

    I find that the people who demand evidence the most are the ones who provide the least of it themselves.

    Its not a strawman (which is a buzzword thrown around on the forums alot, and most of the quotes its used to described do not fit the definition of), it is reality. DDO is now a pay to cheat by circumventing game balance (as defined by the devs themselves) game, where the more money you pay, the more advantage you have. Mana potions makes up for lack of experienced play, because the experienced players who refuse to use them know how to manage their SP in order to not have to use them.

    Turbine has you weened to this new reality of the game to the point where you will quote anyone who doesnt support it and disagree with them in a knee jerk fashion, bringing no more evidence to the table than those you demand it from. In this you contradict yourself on multiple fronts. If you define this as a strawman, then it must grate on the nerves to know that the strawman is absolutely correct. You clearly understand mana potions are the rule and not the exception for most players nowdays, and adamantly refuse to believe that people play this game without them.
    Last edited by Chai; 11-17-2012 at 06:07 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  10. #330
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    A cooldown will not affect anyone who drinks a pot here and there, or even a few a quest. It would force people to learn tactics in difficult content and not just power through it.
    Curious: Would you support doubling (or more) the cool-down of mass heal then?

  11. #331
    Community Member Gunga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    And what are you backing your claims with exactly.

    I find that the people who demand evidence the most are the ones who provide the least of it themselves.

    Its not a strawman, it is reality. DDO is now a pay to cheat game, where the more money you pay, the more advantage you have. Mana potions makes up for lack of experienced play, because the experienced players know how to manage their SP in order to not have to use them.
    No. I feel the opposite way. To each their own, I guess.

  12. #332
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    Nonsense. Look at the "achievements" forum.

    Look at all the divines who either don't pug at all or TR'd into non-divines so they don't feel pressured into power-drinking bad players through content. A few morons get carried through stuff, think it's normal, don't understand that they are terrible and don't see the need to improve.

    A cooldown will not affect anyone who drinks a pot here and there, or even a few a quest. It would force people to learn tactics in difficult content and not just power through it.
    Even the guy staunchly trying to oppose me outlines how he did just that - reincarned his divine into an arcane so he didnt have to live up to his own expectations of divines, and in the same post adamantly refusing to believe that people play this game without having to succumb to those same expectations.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  13. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scraap View Post
    Curious: Would you support doubling (or more) the cool-down of mass heal then?
    What does one have to do with the other? Other than of course with the spaghetti-code in this game having unintended consequences when you change the amount of kobolds spawning in the harbor and the next thing you know it breaks Abbot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    Ape_Man does clever trolling nothing more. Don't feed him/her.

  14. #334
    The Hatchery vVvAiaynAvVv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Its F2P that saved this game 3 years ago. We didnt have P2W at that time yet. If you review my posting history from that time youll see that I supported F2P.

    Now plaease quote everyone else making claims like "a cooldown on mana pots would make people leave the game" and demand evidence from them as well.
    I just wonder though...I agree F2P saved the game....but if that was enough why did they move on to P2W as well....I think at least the evil overlords at TW had this in mind all along.

    Scratt for president!!!!

  15. #335
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vVvAiaynAvVv View Post
    I just wonder though...I agree F2P saved the game....but if that was enough why did they move on to P2W as well....I think at least the evil overlords at TW had this in mind all along.
    Moar Money. If a for profit business can make 110% of their goal with f2p or 120% of their goal with f2p + p2w, which do you think they will choose?

    But first they have to ween people onto the p2w teet. They cant do this overnight. It took 3 years of slowly injecting it into the game in order to do it slow enough to not draw that much attention to itself. Had DDO gone from what it was in 2008 to the amount of P2W we see today in the game overnight, that would have been all she wrote.

    This is why we seen this high level of denial when this is explained to people. It didnt all happen at once. Some of us can still remember when it wasnt needed, when the game was much harder. We also understand its not needed now, but this gets adamantly refused by those who are so weened onto it they cant believe anyone succeeds without it.
    Last edited by Chai; 11-17-2012 at 06:30 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  16. #336
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    What does one have to do with the other? Other than of course with the spaghetti-code in this game having unintended consequences when you change the amount of kobolds spawning in the harbor and the next thing you know it breaks Abbot.
    Seems pretty simple to me. Folks want to argue about things that let us face-roll content? Try starting at the cornerstone of standard pug tactics that's gotten so out of hand even the devs ended up house-ruling their own house-rules to keep it under control.

  17. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scraap View Post
    Seems pretty simple to me. Folks want to argue about things that let us face-roll content? Try starting at the cornerstone of standard pug tactics that's gotten so out of hand even the devs ended up house-ruling their own house-rules to keep it under control.
    Do you mean if I was the "DM" for DDO would I nerf the ever-loving stuff out of certain things and buff some other stuff to shape the game more towards my liking?

    Absolutely. But increasing the cool-down on Mass-heal isn't even on the Radar.

    But that's not what this thread is about and is a moot point. hell . . . this whole thread is a moot point as Turbine makes money from SP pots sales, it's never going to change.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    Ape_Man does clever trolling nothing more. Don't feed him/her.

  18. #338

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Its F2P that saved this game 3 years ago. We didnt have P2W at that time yet. If you review my posting history from that time youll see that I supported F2P.

    Now plaease quote everyone else making claims like "a cooldown on mana pots would make people leave the game" and demand evidence from them as well.
    I don't have that kind of time, . I asked you because I I thought you were more likely than them to actual have some and I was honestly interested in seeing it if you did. Wasn't meant as an attack. I think both sides have some reasonable points, and some silly arguments. The issue doesn't have much impact on my playstyle, and I am fairly neutral on the outcome.

  19. #339
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    This thread was dead 24 hrs ago. Could someone please bury it?

  20. #340
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    Do you mean if I was the "DM" for DDO would I nerf the ever-loving stuff out of certain things and buff some other stuff to shape the game more towards my liking?

    Absolutely. But increasing the cool-down on Mass-heal isn't even on the Radar.

    But that's not what this thread is about and is a moot point. hell . . . this whole thread is a moot point as Turbine makes money from SP pots sales, it's never going to change.
    Funny. Seems to me the thread's entirely about whether keeping spell-spam under control is desirable or not. Folks just seem to want to conveniently forget about restorative spell-spam.

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