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  1. #1261
    The Hatchery vVvAiaynAvVv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    Did anyone actually suggest this?

    And I actually did unsub for 8 months and take my money elsewhere. I can back around the MoTU launch to see how things were going. I actually left and played the SWG EMU because I was so sick of how turbine was changing the game. So I understand your vehamence in saying you would leave if they did something you thougt was really stupid. I've been there and I did leave.

    Like you, I also have a break point. If they make the content require potions from the store, then I will leave.
    No one actually suggested this but if this thread keeps going the devs may consider it a sign that something "needs" to be changed.....now why would they take money out of their pockets with the store bought potions......hence my very speculative conclusion becase I have no idea really how this will all go down.

    If they do what I concluded then it would create even more segregation and imbalance I think.

    Scratt for president!!!!

  2. #1262
    Community Member cpito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Well it happens enough that it is problematic and alters DDO enough to have a significant effect. I pug alot and when you pug alot you see a variety. Choosing to not pug at all like some people in this thread have advocated really is a deal breaker. I like running in a party like dungeons and dragons is. Soloing is only so fun. I would have left DDO a long time ago if my only option was soloing. Having a static group is also difficult unless I really limited my play to specific times which is less fun for me as well.



    I concur. I really do not understand the backlash about limiting mana pots as well. At 300 spell points or so per pot using a pot every 10 minutes we are still talking about 3000 mana per every 10 minutes which is still quite a lot actually. What is so attractive about having an extra 6000 mana or 9000 mana or 12,000 mana or etc. extra mana every 10 minutes? Is this just about principles or truely about being able to use 12,000+ extra mana every 10 minutes?
    For many people, pugging becomes less of an option without sp pots because they are less likely to chance not completing and wasting time. No one has ever suggested that DDO be a solo game, just that the possibility should remain for those who wish to try.

    I'm not following your math. How does 1 pot for 300 sp every 10 minutes equal 3000 sp every 10 minutes? The backlash is because this is a suggestion that will eliminate many of the possibilities available to the playerbase for completing quests. It seriously curtails the possibility of pulling a wiped party/raid back from the brink and it means that a great many hours will be wasted because a crucial party member dc'ed/lagged out at the wrong time. Reducing the methods used to play this game will not be a healthy move.
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  3. #1263
    DDO Catalog MrCow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt
    I would be interested to know if guys like MrCow use them.
    I seldom use mnemonics, generally resorting to using for emergency situations, crazy achievements that require the use of them, or because I had an idiot moment and didn't stock up on enough vendor-based consumables (like when I did Acute Delirium [Elite] solo).

    Over the past two years I've had more mnemonics blown up by incidental damage (~40) than I've consumed (~30).
    Last edited by MrCow; 12-03-2012 at 04:50 PM.
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  4. #1264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    This hasn't changed. I'm convinced everything in the game can be completed with no (or very few) SP pots.

    There is no question that MOST of the content in this game can be completed without the use of SP pot... Unless things goes south, and of course the chances in say EE content goes up as far as that is concerned... BUT, you're speaking of specific player demographics here. DDO is living on, surviving on short term casual players. As well as peopel who are less skilled int he 6 months to 2 years range that are far more casual, far less geared etc than the klikes of many of the long time Vets/fourm posters.

    Placing your statement across the enitre DDO population isn't valid at all... Just because it can be done doesn't mean every group/person can do it. Or even wants to do it...

    It's a paper tiger to think that putting a timer on SP pots will "fix" the game in the way Matt or yourself thinks... ANYTHING, that has the chance to push more players away from DDO is a bad idea at this point. Because there's really not all that much the DDO team can do to significantly increase the population. Narrowing the player base is the last thing Turbine should do.

  5. #1265

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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    I think what ash and others are missing is that for the large majority of players, the cost of SP pots IS prohibitive and therefore balanced.
    Oh, I don't think I've missed that not all players can afford a lot of potions. I've pointed out they are free by farming and come in a trinket clickie, and that it doesn't take an unlimited amount be become excessive.

    We have nothing else in this game that recovers so much SP so fast -- to the point some players are choosing to drink SP potions instead of taking the time to shrine. A choice like that says a lot about how unprohibitive these potions actually are.

    To me that seems like a pretty solid indicator things have gotten away from the intended purpose of SP potions.

    Even a minute timer would still be 5 spell points per second and fast relative to other methods. A short timer reins things in without drastic change. I think 20-30 seconds is appropriate and still fast enough SP recovery for those who want them.

    Drinking 6 majors over 20 seconds is overpowered enough and it doesn't take much to come up with 6 majors or more while planning on using them to remove challenge from content for casters.

  6. #1266
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
    Oh, I don't think I've missed that not all players can afford a lot of potions. I've pointed out they are free by farming and come in a trinket clickie, and that it doesn't take an unlimited amount be become excessive.

    We have nothing else in this game that recovers so much SP so fast -- to the point some players are choosing to drink SP potions instead of taking the time to shrine. A choice like that says a lot about how unprohibitive these potions actually are.

    To me that seems like a pretty solid indicator things have gotten away from the intended purpose of SP potions.

    Even a minute timer would still be 5 spell points per second and fast relative to other methods. A short timer reins things in without drastic change. I think 20-30 seconds is appropriate and still fast enough SP recovery for those who want them.

    Drinking 6 majors over 20 seconds is overpowered enough and it doesn't take much to come up with 6 majors or more while planning on using them to remove challenge from content for casters.
    And for every time you see someone chug pots to refill SP instead of shrine, you see hundreds of players sit on empty and not even drink a single pot so that they can contribute minimally.

    It doesn't matter if the average player CAN blow through resources to force a completion, if can't be done sustainably. If doing so every time a raid would otherwise fail is a net loss for a player (and it is), then you should see that as perfectly fine from the perspective of game balance. The point being, the current system IS balanced for the large majority of players, regardless of what is possible for some.

  7. #1267
    Community Member mobrien316's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    And for every time you see someone chug pots to refill SP instead of shrine, you see hundreds of players sit on empty and not even drink a single pot so that they can contribute minimally.

    It doesn't matter if the average player CAN blow through resources to force a completion, if can't be done sustainably. If doing so every time a raid would otherwise fail is a net loss for a player (and it is), then you should see that as perfectly fine from the perspective of game balance. The point being, the current system IS balanced for the large majority of players, regardless of what is possible for some.
    I was doing some 18-20 quests over the weekend with a PUG and there was a sorcerer in the group who would blow through his SP in the first couple of minutes, and then write comments in the chat about how he's a "nuker" and he'll just follow us at a distance until we hit the next shrine.

    Since one of my characters is a sorcerer, I asked him about his SLA's and mentioned that you can meta the heck out of them for no additional SP cost, which almost always means my sorcerer doesn't even come close to running out of SP in most situations. He said he prefers "heavy hitting" (he had maximize and empower on all the time) to spamming SLA's and he'd rather kill everything after we enter and after every shrine instead of "sprinkling" weaker spells throughout a quest.

    Personally, I'd rather PLAY the whole quest instead of piking it 90% of the time, but this guy clearly has a different idea of fun that I do.

    If he'd been chugging pots the whole time, he could have contributed a bit more. I'd rather see a player like that chugging pots instead of piking most of the time.
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  8. #1268
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    You've never addressed if you'd tell a child that they suck so bad, they are going to die and fail the quest. Because with some parents playing with their children, that is effectively what you are doing as well.
    Hopefully you are not truely that tactless.

    I routinely play with a guildmate and his two children. I have watched them come a long way and greatly improve. I would never tell one of them they suck just because they are 8 and can't help themselves and get too much agro in and Epic Elite. We kindly tell them to stay back with the main group while we pull.

    At the same time, we realize when we are limited. Thankfully the father is an intelligent man and also knows where his kids limitations lay. When we play with them we mostly choose content that is appropriate and occasionally push the limits to grow them up in the game.

    Mana potions are not a factor, either way. I've heard some good points against limiting the potions, but you have not convinced me that kids are one of them.
    /sigh

  9. #1269
    Community Member Xynot2's Avatar
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    I had nothing to add- I just wanted to help this thread make it to 100 pages.

  10. #1270
    Community Member cpito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xynot2 View Post
    I had nothing to add- I just wanted to help this thread make it to 100 pages.
    That would make this thread entirely too overpowered
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  11. #1271
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    Hopefully you are not truely that tactless.

    I routinely play with a guildmate and his two children. I have watched them come a long way and greatly improve. I would never tell one of them they suck just because they are 8 and can't help themselves and get too much agro in and Epic Elite. We kindly tell them to stay back with the main group while we pull.

    At the same time, we realize when we are limited. Thankfully the father is an intelligent man and also knows where his kids limitations lay. When we play with them we mostly choose content that is appropriate and occasionally push the limits to grow them up in the game.

    Mana potions are not a factor, either way. I've heard some good points against limiting the potions, but you have not convinced me that kids are one of them.
    Congratulations for speaking up on how you treat them in a group rather than parent/s with their kids and no one else which is what I have stated several times.

  12. #1272
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    Congratulations for speaking up on how you treat them in a group rather than parent/s with their kids and no one else which is what I have stated several times.
    I seem to have lost my dice. Did I roll a one on something here?

    You say "congratulations" but somehow I don't feel you mean it, but at the same time, I'm not sure what you are looking for here. Sorry.
    /sigh

  13. #1273
    Community Member Xynot2's Avatar
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    ok- I have something to add.

    No- it is not time to add SP pot timers. I rarely use them since I have learned how to play one but if I do use them, I need several at once. Case in point, something went horribly wrong at the end of an elite Shroud with a static group that NEVER has problems with this quest. It was a struggle to recover and I pushed 12 pots to keep it going but we survived and completed.

    Further, when I was learning the best way to play a healer, I went through thousands of SP pots until I learned how to time my spells, learn the quests and how to stretch my SP to the next shrine and how many attack spells I could get away with and still be sure to keep the players alive.

    And then you have the people who never learn that and purchase the pots from both the AH and the DDO store. They generate plat for players and $$ for Turbine.

    So while I commiserate with your plight and can see your point where a great number of casters are concerned, I cannot agree. Maybe you should start a hardcore guild where the rule is that you can only use X number of pots per quest or some such. But there isn't a good enough reason to negate all of what I just said by adding a timer. The $ amount is enough for Turbine to never add a timer.

    Note: Side thought... I wonder if pots purchase is the reason for the whole poison thing. Hmmm...

  14. #1274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
    Oh, I don't think I've missed that not all players can afford a lot of potions. I've pointed out they are free by farming and come in a trinket clickie, and that it doesn't take an unlimited amount be become excessive.

    We have nothing else in this game that recovers so much SP so fast -- to the point some players are choosing to drink SP potions instead of taking the time to shrine. A choice like that says a lot about how unprohibitive these potions actually are.

    To me that seems like a pretty solid indicator things have gotten away from the intended purpose of SP potions.

    Even a minute timer would still be 5 spell points per second and fast relative to other methods. A short timer reins things in without drastic change. I think 20-30 seconds is appropriate and still fast enough SP recovery for those who want them.

    Drinking 6 majors over 20 seconds is overpowered enough and it doesn't take much to come up with 6 majors or more while planning on using them to remove challenge from content for casters.

    So what you propsoe for players that DO use them as much as is what you refer to damaging to the game is that they spend 5 minutes recallign otu for SP instead? To what end? Oh ya, slow the game down for those players and those with them, which is more likely to frustrate them and cause them to play lesss or possibly leave.

    This isn't a well thought through idea... Not by Matt nor by you.....

  15. #1275
    Community Member Rodasch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
    some players are choosing to drink SP potions instead of taking the time to shrine. A choice like that says a lot about how unprohibitive these potions actually are.

    To me that seems like a pretty solid indicator things have gotten away from the intended purpose of SP potions.
    This is a misleading and dangerous argument. It is much akin to a statement such as:

    "Some people are choosing to drive Lamborghini Diablos instead of Ford Mustangs when they want a sports car. A choice like that says a lot about how unprohibitive the cost of a Diablo actually is."

    See how that sounds a little silly?

    All that the choice you indicated "says" is that the people who opted to do so either have enough resources to consider the cost trivial for the convenience and speed, or they really simply don't care about the cost but do care about their time. It says nothing about the general state of their prohibitive status on anyone but those who abuse them. When this "choice" becomes more common and widespread among the less blessed or less blithe masses, then your statement will be more accurate.

    Please don't allow yourself to slip into lazy thought patterns like this, they lead to faulty thought processes because they spawn a series of conclusions predicated on a previous false conclusion as a starting point.

    Even a minute timer would still be 5 spell points per second and fast relative to other methods. A short timer reins things in without drastic change. I think 20-30 seconds is appropriate and still fast enough SP recovery for those who want them.
    And 20-30 seconds would have zero impact on the issues claimed by anyone who's advocating a timer, including your arguments. As it stands you can only use potions about that often over time to any real effect, given cooldowns that already exist and the time required to make use of the sp gained for any real result before needing to click more potions.

    If it takes me 5-8 potions to fill up my blue bar, then 2-3 minutes to empty it again, I'm only effectively using between 2-3 potions a minute over time...which is 20-30 seconds between them...on average. It's just front loaded.

    Making sense?

    Drinking 6 majors over 20 seconds is overpowered enough and it doesn't take much to come up with 6 majors or more while planning on using them to remove challenge from content for casters.
    Why is drinking 6 majors over 20 seconds, then spending 3 minutes dumping that mana more powerful than drinking 6 majors over 3 minutes while dumping the mana between potions to the same effect?
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  16. #1276
    Community Member Xynot2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodasch View Post
    And 20-30 seconds would have zero impact on the issues claimed by anyone who's advocating a timer,
    This almost sound like a concession to accepting the use of pot timers.

    My argument that pot users spend plat in the AH and $$ in the turbine store and the latter being enough reason for turbine to never add a timer is all the reason we need for there to never be one. I would venture to guess that I used over a million pots learning how to play my healer. I'm the poster child for economic generation for why timers are a bad idea.

  17. #1277

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    Quote Originally Posted by smatt View Post
    So what you propsoe for players that DO use them as much as is what you refer to damaging to the game is that they spend 5 minutes recallign otu for SP instead? To what end? Oh ya, slow the game down for those players and those with them, which is more likely to frustrate them and cause them to play lesss or possibly leave.

    This isn't a well thought through idea... Not by Matt nor by you.....
    The end to which I would be moving towards would still be preventing overpowered casters from dominating play even more than they can now and move them towards managing their SP. For balance reasons. The same reason many, many, many changes have taken place and continue to take place.

    I don't think for one minute that being able to add 1800 SP over 3 minutes instead of 20 seconds because of a timer is going to be the doom of anyone's gaming experience.

    If one assumes someone will leave over it I would say it's equally fair that someone would remain because of their own gaming experience too. Stating people would leave over it is pretty much just doomsaying with all the relevant data a magic 8 ball or psychic hotline can muster. I don't think either side of the discussion is in any position to actually project player attrition over such a change unless you have access to some reporting tools that I do not.

  18. #1278
    Community Member cpito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
    all the relevant data a magic 8 ball or psychic hotline can muster.
    Which is exactly what the OP and people advocating this change have presented for an argument.
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  19. #1279

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodasch View Post
    This is a misleading and dangerous argument. It is much akin to a statement such as:

    "Some people are choosing to drive Lamborghini Diablos instead of Ford Mustangs when they want a sports car. A choice like that says a lot about how unprohibitive the cost of a Diablo actually is."

    See how that sounds a little silly?
    Except for the fact that every single player can farm potions for free if they choose. The amount of time in the real world to farm either car is a huge investment. The amount of time to farm enough potions to make an impact is less than a week.

    The real world also has restrictions on the use of both to those items. DDO restricts shrines and not potions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodasch View Post
    All that the choice you indicated "says" is that the people who opted to do so either have enough resources to consider the cost trivial for the convenience and speed, or they really simply don't care about the cost but do care about their time. It says nothing about the general state of their prohibitive status on anyone but those who abuse them. When this "choice" becomes more common and widespread among the less blessed or less blithe masses, then your statement will be more accurate.
    That's why I pointed out that if SP potions were not so readily available then it would not even be an option to consider potions over shrining. The fact that potions can be a better option as is over a free and numerous resource such as a shrine indicates something is not as it should be.

    As far as "widespread use" if it's not widespread use that gets back to invalidating arguments about the value of the revenue stream and player attrition. If it's not common it will not be an impact on the population and will not have significant negative impact on revenue or player attrition, as some have argued.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodasch View Post
    And 20-30 seconds would have zero impact on the issues claimed by anyone who's advocating a timer, including your arguments. As it stands you can only use potions about that often over time to any real effect, given cooldowns that already exist and the time required to make use of the sp gained for any real result before needing to click more potions.

    If it takes me 5-8 potions to fill up my blue bar, then 2-3 minutes to empty it again, I'm only effectively using between 2-3 potions a minute over time...which is 20-30 seconds between them...on average. It's just front loaded.

    Making sense?
    That does make sense. However, I'm thinking of how many times, how often, and how fast this is possible. If I can't empty my blue bar faster than I can refill it that just means the timer could be a bit longer. Right now we can fill it up faster than it can be emptied and that's exactly the point I think I might have been failing to communicate properly comes in.

    The game is based on resource management and I think the main reason I would be looking at timers is to move SP to the point were we are beyond being able to replenish it faster than we use it. That's why it's not a true restriction on casting when casting is balanced based on that restriction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodasch View Post
    Why is drinking 6 majors over 20 seconds, then spending 3 minutes dumping that mana more powerful than drinking 6 majors over 3 minutes while dumping the mana between potions to the same effect?
    What I'm getting at is moving back to a point where the rate SP can be recovered becomes a point to consider when SP dumping rather than simply deciding we want to have more SP as needed if we can just refill on a whim. If we can replenish faster than that we can dump faster than that for more effectiveness.

    I think that if the game is balanced based on not using potions that can easily be out of balance with potions regardless. So far I haven't seen a very convincing argument as so to why it is good for the game.

    I am convinced it's not widespread, high priority, and not sustainable. To me that doesn't actually change the game mechanics involved.

  20. #1280

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    Quote Originally Posted by cpito View Post
    Which is exactly what the OP and people advocating this change have presented for an argument.
    My argument is that if we don't balance for potions then a caster with 2000 SP who enters a quest meant to be challenging at level and has 20 SP potions he's willing to use has an advantage over someone who is not using the potions or doesn't use SP, and the quest won't be as challenging as intended.

    Determining that a caster can do more with 8000 SP that 2000 SP isn't much of a stretch; it's more like common sense.
    Last edited by Aashrym; 12-03-2012 at 09:22 PM.

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