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  1. #1081
    Founder Chaos000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
    So when a person has the gear and not longer needs the compensation for poor gear the option for the SP potions is still there and they get out of hand. Ungeared players aren't the issue. Geared players are, and they can afford AH prices better plus farm SP potions if they like (or items to trade directly for the SP potions).
    Restricting potions widens the gap between people with gear and those without.

    The perception of SP potion "abuse" is about as valid as restricting "optimized XP/min farming" of quests such as Shadow Crypt or capped level Epic VON3 destiny farming without repetition penalty.

    Geared players can self regulate. If 9 divine players want to join an epic shroud run there shouldn't be any "restriction" on how many divine players can join a raid based on the reasoning that then there will be more "healers" for lfm's that have been up for one in a half hours without a healer willing to join it.

    Some find it fun to toss a maximized empowered quickened disintegrate to kill a kobold. I say let them.
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  2. #1082
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    If something about the game bothers you, such as "I think pale masters are overpowered", rather than suggesting that Turbine nerf pale masters, it would be far more tolerant of you and far more reasonable for you to simply stop grouping with pale masters, if their "overpoweredness" makes the game less fun for you. Since there are a lot of people who enjoy playing pale masters, and a lot of people who enjoy having pale masters in their group, adjusing your own play style makes more sense than trying to adjust all of theirs.
    While this may be a nice idea, it doesn't cover that Turbine will nerf something if they see it as overpowered. Often at the expense of others. Let me explain:

    High str TWF Tempest Rangers were very powerful. When Turbine nerfed the crud out of them, they mostly survived due to having high str. All the finesse builds, that were not overpowered, took the same nerf right in the face and were left, well, severely nerfed.

    In your example, if pale masters are seen as overpowered and turbine nerfs wizards then the archmages take the nerf along with them even though they were not the ones overpowered.

    Don't think it could happen? I already gave you one example of it. Here is another. Back when dex builds were more viable, wounding of puncturing was king. TWF with rapiers ruled the roost (sure maybe a slight exageration, but it sounds good, right?) To fix it, Turbine did not target the weapons, they changed the way constitution damage works. When they did this, not only did they nerf the targeted TWF W/P user, they hit arcane casters who used cloud kill. Collateral damage I guess, if you think that sort of thing is okay.

    Now, if I had to choose between nerfing caster inate abilities or mana potions, i'd rather they nerfed the potions. Call me paranoid if you like, but I think they are gonna come after casters (arcane and divine alike) next...
    /sigh

  3. #1083
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaos000 View Post
    I've always thought mana pots were only necessary to compensate for gear. In a group of fully optimized in terms of build TR stat allotment + main destiny/twist + over geared + party makeup... even in the hardest content every caster would have 75% mana left over at the end of the quest without breaking a sweat.

    Typically paying in mana pots to win is the result of non-realized potential of the players in the group. If shroud runs more than 1 round on elite, it is the result of dps gear deficiencies that burdens the healers to compensate by expending more mana. Back before everyone made their greensteel weapons it was not uncommon for LFM’s requiring people to link their DR breakers because of the high rate of failure otherwise. Once it became “every run is pretty much a success” pick up groups would pretty much accept anyone provided they have at least one or two people willing to heal for it. Sometimes the dps would be lacking because there were players in group who was running the raid because they needed the gear from the raid to not be absolutely useless in the raid.

    Mana pots are a luxury because they are not necessary for any of the content when everyone is geared appropriately. It’s only necessary for players who use them to compensate for the gear they are currently lacking. Once they get their completion and the gear from the raids I’m pretty sure the need to mana pot will decrease to nonexistence.

    I like that the game has a feature to allow you to get a successful completion with potions to get gear so that you can get a successful completion with gear without potions. Those who benefit most are casual or new players who are sometimes under geared for the content they are trying to run.
    Very interesting post. I think I like it, but I'll have to think on it a bit more.

    Your perspective on the potions being a way to help people "bootstrap" up to where they can run the content is a good one.

    My concern is that is not the only way they are being used and that turbine may use a very broad nerf brush that affects too many underserving of it. Then again, some people who were willing to talk and not simply berate Chai and Madd have posted some compelling arguments to leave the mana potions alone.

    You've got me thinking. +1 to you sir.
    /sigh

  4. #1084
    Community Member mobrien316's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    While this may be a nice idea, it doesn't cover that Turbine will nerf something if they see it as overpowered. Often at the expense of others. Let me explain:

    High str TWF Tempest Rangers were very powerful. When Turbine nerfed the crud out of them, they mostly survived due to having high str. All the finesse builds, that were not overpowered, took the same nerf right in the face and were left, well, severely nerfed.

    In your example, if pale masters are seen as overpowered and turbine nerfs wizards then the archmages take the nerf along with them even though they were not the ones overpowered.

    Don't think it could happen? I already gave you one example of it. Here is another. Back when dex builds were more viable, wounding of puncturing was king. TWF with rapiers ruled the roost (sure maybe a slight exageration, but it sounds good, right?) To fix it, Turbine did not target the weapons, they changed the way constitution damage works. When they did this, not only did they nerf the targeted TWF W/P user, they hit arcane casters who used cloud kill. Collateral damage I guess, if you think that sort of thing is okay.

    Now, if I had to choose between nerfing caster inate abilities or mana potions, i'd rather they nerfed the potions. Call me paranoid if you like, but I think they are gonna come after casters (arcane and divine alike) next...
    Okay... So my opinion (that calling for nerfs is bad) is not a good one because if Turbine nerfs something a lot of people will be unhappy?

    I think you just supported my opinion. If that was your intention, thank you!

    Or are you suggesting that we call for moderate nerfs that many people won't like to avoid the possibility that Turbine will initiate a massive nerf that no one will like?

    To continue with the same example, if a player feels that pale masters are overpowered to the point that having a pale master in their party ruins their fun, it makes far more sense for that player to avoid grouping with pale masters than it does for that person to suggest that Turbine nerf all pale masters. Some people like PM's just the way they are and won't be happy if they are nerfed. Why negatively affect them if the person who doesn't like PM's can simply avoid grouping with them instead of changing the way everyone else in the DDO universe plays?

    Using your ranger example, either Turbine listened to complaints from the player base that TWF tempests were so horribly overpowered that the were ruining everyone's fun and so they decided to nerf them, or Turbine took a second look at TWF tempests, decided for themselves that they were overpowered, and decided to nerf them. If it was the first possibility, it would have been much better for everyone involved if the whiners had simply avoided grouping with the horribly overpowered, fun-ruining tempests instead of calling for Turbine to nerf them and, in the process, screwing over the vast majority of players with a tempest ranger. If it was the second possibility, that Turbine decided on their own to screw over a bunch of players, then whining about tempests are overpowered did neither harm nor good.
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  5. #1085
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
    I find it very funny how unnerved some people are at the concept of a small restriction on something that can be abused.

    Why do some people fear suggestions to improve something that can get out of hand?
    people like their easy-buttons, it is that simple.

    BUT . . . there are so many other easy buttons in this game now I'm not sure the SP pots are a sacred cow anymore.
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  6. #1086
    Community Member stainer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
    I find it very funny how unnerved some people are at the concept of a small restriction on something that can be abused.

    Why do some people fear suggestions to improve something that can get out of hand?
    The only way SP pots can be abused is by drinking them, which is the purpose for which they are intended. Your post doesn't make any sense to me.

  7. #1087
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainer View Post
    The only way SP pots can be abused is by drinking them,...
    This is not true, as evidenced by the restraining order Gunga was levied with by the Stormreach Gaurd.
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  8. #1088
    Community Member stainer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldest View Post
    This is not true, as evidenced by the restraining order Gunga was levied with by the Stormreach Gaurd.
    I heard he ruphies up SP pots and hands them out like candy.

  9. #1089
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    Why negatively affect them if the person who doesn't like PM's can simply avoid grouping with them instead of changing the way everyone else in the DDO universe plays?
    Oh for Pete's sake. Turbine would obviously choose a game environment friendly to allowing any sort of class join a group over one where every group has most classes filtered out. It is far more economically viable.

    The problem is the mistakes of the past. Right now most people still playing have a wizard or sorceror. Fixing the situation for a future viability may risk losing immediate revenue. So that is why mana pots won't get a timer... because Turbine is currently running by the seat of their pants and has no intention of lasting far into the future. Whether they will last or not is irrelevant... it is becoming obvious that they have no expectation of doing so.

    It would be difficult to put numbers on the amount of revenue lost due to arcanes/divines abusing mana pots in PUGs (and probably some guild runs), but I would wager it is significant. I have run countless (at least a thousand) PUG runs where the arcane/divine in the group uses sloppy, inefficient spellcasting yet seems to never completely run dry. It's hard to notice it without a lot of experience, especially if the abuse is done on an as-needed basis (most of it is). Note that it's the sloppy/inefficient spellcasting that makes people stop playing (and paying). A wizard that overbuffs then uses lots of mana pots doesn't prevent other people from enjoying the game, and an arcane that doesn't use pots but still exhibit horrible spellcasting behavior will prevent enjoyment.

    It's griefing, pure and simple.

    Allowing unfettered access to mana is, in all reality, a griefing tactic supported by Turbine. You fix mana pots to curb the griefing, not the overexpenditure of resources. It's the same reason why my fireball doesn't incinerate everyone in the group to ashes.

    Quote Originally Posted by stainer View Post
    The only way SP pots can be abused is by drinking them, which is the purpose for which they are intended.
    Alcohol is also intended for the purpose of drinking. Half a glass of wine a day is purported to be mildly heart-healthy. Yet abuse is still possible. Go figure.
    Last edited by Raithe; 11-30-2012 at 03:27 PM.

  10. #1090
    The Hatchery vVvAiaynAvVv's Avatar
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    If you guys care so much about resources being abused...why don't you get off these forums and go tackle some RL environmental issues......

    I think it's far more important to put timers on a lot of RL consumables rather than virtual magic potions...I mean seriously...give me a break.

    Your not trying to make the game better in general...your trying to make it better for your tiny little clique.

    The more things change...the more they stay the same.

    Scratt for president!!!!

  11. #1091
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    Quote Originally Posted by vVvAiaynAvVv View Post
    [COLOR="Pink"]If you guys care so much about resources being abused...why don't you get off these forums and go tackle some RL environmental issues......

    I think it's far more important to put timers on a lot of RL consumables rather than virtual magic potions...I mean seriously...give me a break.
    Could you possibly come up with a weaker excuse to defend your easy-button?
    Last edited by Ape_Man; 11-30-2012 at 03:47 PM.
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  12. #1092
    Community Member Rodasch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    Well, probably you don't want to join those groups anyway, but it sure affects you . I'm just a bit tired of the "don't like it, don't play with ..." argument. This is from the same guy who says "if you think class x is overpowered, don't play with class x". He's more or less saying that if there are problems, just ignore them and stick your head in the sand. That's hardly ever a solution.

    If there's a problem with gun violence in a city, he will tell you "it doesn't affect you, just avoid people with guns". Well, it affects the whole environment of a city. Now I do agree that in this particular case with mana pots it is not a bad strategy, but in general it doesn't work like that.
    I'm glad to see you were being light-hearted, at least. You're right, you wouldn't want to join those groups anyway, if you were one of those who don't like mana pot usage.

    In this case, it is pretty much that simple. Avoid people who play in ways that you despise.

    I'll avoid a diatribe on the gun violence issue because I have strong views on that and they have no place on this forum.
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  13. #1093
    Community Member Rodasch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaos000 View Post
    I've always thought mana pots were only necessary to compensate for gear. In a group of fully optimized in terms of build TR stat allotment + main destiny/twist + over geared + party makeup... even in the hardest content every caster would have 75% mana left over at the end of the quest without breaking a sweat.

    Typically paying in mana pots to win is the result of non-realized potential of the players in the group. If shroud runs more than 1 round on elite, it is the result of dps gear deficiencies that burdens the healers to compensate by expending more mana. Back before everyone made their greensteel weapons it was not uncommon for LFM’s requiring people to link their DR breakers because of the high rate of failure otherwise. Once it became “every run is pretty much a success” pick up groups would pretty much accept anyone provided they have at least one or two people willing to heal for it. Sometimes the dps would be lacking because there were players in group who was running the raid because they needed the gear from the raid to not be absolutely useless in the raid.

    Mana pots are a luxury because they are not necessary for any of the content when everyone is geared appropriately. It’s only necessary for players who use them to compensate for the gear they are currently lacking. Once they get their completion and the gear from the raids I’m pretty sure the need to mana pot will decrease to nonexistence.

    I like that the game has a feature to allow you to get a successful completion with potions to get gear so that you can get a successful completion with gear without potions. Those who benefit most are casual or new players who are sometimes under geared for the content they are trying to run.
    This.
    +1
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    I didn't have the heart to tell him he looked like a fat guy in a Godzilla suit.

  14. #1094
    Community Member Rodasch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainer View Post
    I heard he ruphies up SP pots and hands them out like candy.
    That explains why I woke up naked and painted green in the back allies of House Deneith last week.
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    I didn't have the heart to tell him he looked like a fat guy in a Godzilla suit.

  15. #1095
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaos000 View Post
    Mana pots are a luxury because they are not necessary for any of the content when everyone is geared appropriately. It’s only necessary for players who use them to compensate for the gear they are currently lacking. Once they get their completion and the gear from the raids I’m pretty sure the need to mana pot will decrease to nonexistence.

    So do they only compensate for a GEAR deficit?

    Or do they also compensate for a SKILL deficit?

    I think both are true. A torc and a bauble really stretch things out. but then again so does knowing when to use scrolls and Renewal instead of spamming less-efficient mass-cures.
    Last edited by Ape_Man; 11-30-2012 at 04:02 PM.
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  16. #1096
    The Hatchery vVvAiaynAvVv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    Could you possibly come up with a weaker excuse to defend your easy-button?
    LMAO...how about you working on your easy button instead...which is coming online to troll the forums assuming you know how everyone plays.

    Scratt for president!!!!

  17. #1097
    Community Member mobrien316's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    It's griefing, pure and simple.

    Allowing unfettered access to mana is, in all reality, a griefing tactic supported by Turbine. You fix mana pots to curb the griefing, not the overexpenditure of resources. It's the same reason why my fireball doesn't incinerate everyone in the group to ashes.
    Using mana pots is griefing? Wow... Just, wow...

    You and I have very different definitions of griefing.

    Even so, if I am in a group with someone I feel is griefing me intentionally, I will remember their name and will not be likely to group with them in the future. Someone using a mana pot will not make my list.

    If you have issues with bad players (regardless of how many mana pots they use) you can either avoid them or grit your teeth and group with them. One thing you should keep in mind is that just because they don't play your way (i.e. - they use mana pots and you don't) that doesn't make them a bad player.

    There is not wrong with like-minded players grouping together. The permadeath people group together, the zergers group together, the "manic/max XP/minute" crowd groups together, the "creep through the quest like an old-fashioned D&D dungeon crawl" groups together, etc... That's good for the game. If everyone could only do things one way a lot of people would lose interest and leave the game.
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  18. #1098
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    Could you possibly come up with a weaker excuse to defend your easy-button?
    Not sure how long you have been playing, but you clearly dont understand how "difficult" this game once was compared to now. If you take away the easy buttons we will be right back to where we were just before F2P got here.

    I am not one that spends alot in the store, and I do not need the items to make me a good player, I just get sick and tired of everyone that likes to cry nerf.
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  19. #1099
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    Ape_Man does clever trolling nothing more. Don't feed him/her.
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  20. #1100
    Community Member Desdemonte's Avatar
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    I don't understand all the whiners crying "nerf this", "nerf that". Stop telling me how to play this game. If I want to drink a mana pot, I will. I rarely do, but if something goes sideways, I'd like to be able to chug a couple quick to keep a quest from failing that everybody just spent an hour of their time and all kinds of other resources in. Waaaa waaa waaa nerf casters! nerf barbs! nerf khopeshes! nerf SoS! 4 minute cooldown on pots on Lam now I hear? 4 minutes?!?!?! FOUR F**KING MINUTES!!!!! Give me a G.D. Break! A quest can go to **** in 15 seconds! Now this is second hand information, and I hope to hell it's wrong...... But if not, it sounds like the suck-holes got what they wanted... again..... in spades.

    Who are you people who have such horrid gaming experiences all the time in this game? Do you really PUG that much that all these overpowered characters ruin every single run for you! FFS- run in guild then! Don't join groups where the PM may take all your wittle kills fwom you

    I'm getting sick of all this BS. I have melee, I have casters, I have healers. I run with lots of people in and out of guild. Sometimes I get more kills, sometimes they do. The important thing is that we complete the quest. If you want a challenge, don't drink the f**king mana pot! Problem solved. Tell everybody else not to. I've been in Web raids/etc where the leader kept repeating "don't pot don't pot". Nobody did. We completed and it was an accomplishment. Show some self control instead of taking away my gaming options.

    Saying that pots are abused and makes for weaker players and therefore ruins the game..... I call BS! I have not seen a *single* bluebar abuse mana pots in the 3 years I've been *heavily* playing this game. Again- those who say you see this, well.... I don't know who the hell you run with but maybe it's time to look at your grouping habits. "Mana pots are ruining end game because people aren't prepared". Another BS statement. Sure, they may be a crutch during a transition stage from easily doing EH to successfully doing EE, but the crutch doesn't last. Once people hone their skills and get their gear, they don't use them any more. They're like training wheels. You want me to put my 3 year old on a 2 wheeler and just send him flying down the street because I can ride a bike!?! Gimme a freaking break! Once a person doesn't need the crutch any more, they get rid of it. The fact that they are in upper game play show a competitive tendency. They don't *want* to have to pot. Stop telling people how to learn the game!
    Last edited by Desdemonte; 11-30-2012 at 07:06 PM.

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