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  1. #541
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunga View Post
    Ok. If you're going to pull my right to complain, that must make you an expert, right? So, expert, are you actually getting up on a soapbox and, in front of the entire 12 people who post on these forums, proclaiming that pugs were awesome before mana pots went on sale?

    You're a funny guy. lol
    The PUG scene was alot better then than it is today, for sure. The diminished learning curve of this game is in large part due to game balance circumvention, which Turbine allows if you pay for it. Endless mana potions are a large part of that.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  2. #542
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    You might want to check again. There were are a ton of bad builds, and people that have never bothered to learn the game. This does not or did not change due to mana pots.
    Not to the degree that there is now. The degree of this has increased at a high pace with endless mana pots.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  3. #543
    Community Member Gunga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The PUG scene was alot better then than it is today, for sure. The diminished learning curve of this game is in large part due to game balance circumvention, which Turbine allows if you pay for it. Endless mana potions are a large part of that.
    I think your version of history and my version are different. Pugs have always had the potential to be terrible. Pugging is also how I got into the guilds that I got into on any server I've ever been to, before and after mana pot usage. I've also witnessed people brought into guild since mana pots have been released for sale who are really good players and might even be as good or better than you.

    My last and only point that I'd like to leave you with is that I don't feel the need to change the game in ways that aren't broken. Turbine has enough of a problem releasing recurring events let alone new content.

    Don't drink pots if you don't like them.

  4. #544
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cendaer View Post
    I can't believe this Mnemonic-Potion-Prohibition thread is still going.

    What's next? Half-Orc sufferage?
    .:.
    People have been arguing against Turbine's use of mana pots when they came into being 5 years ago and if anything the effects of mana pots on the gaming population has been even worse then anticipated.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  5. #545
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Why? Because endless mana potions teach people they can bypass the learning curve, dont need good character building, or better game understanding. They have unlimited power, for as long as they are willing to blow disposible income on it. When they are no longer willing to do this, the game will become far less fun for them, due to becomming too difficult.
    Man what happened I used to agree with 99% of your posts. This is pure theory crafting, it simply isn't what actually happens in the game, SP pots cost money, and almost everyone I've ever heard in game VERY MUCH DOESN'T WANT TO USE ONE. Not ONE, let alone habitually chug them! Like "Look this is going bad, and I don't want to drink a pot" and "look I'll keep healing but I'm going to have to down a major" and "if you need to drink a pot keep track and let me know and I'll replace them when we fo"... What you don't actually see in game is:

    Duh I love downing these expensive SP pots, so Ima spam crappy SP inefficient spells and totally not pay attention to whats effective or not, not use meta's smartly and just slug away with one shot damage spells until I'm broke or out of TP's to spend on pots...

    Cause that only happens in the minds of people on forums who are crafting theories
    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    You can't possibly design good gameplay if excitement unpredictability and unknowns are NOT ALLOWED because they confuse some players who want everything cut and dried and spelled out for them.

  6. #546
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunga View Post
    I think your version of history and my version are different. Pugs have always had the potential to be terrible. Pugging is also how I got into the guilds that I got into on any server I've ever been to, before and after mana pot usage. I've also witnessed people brought into guild since mana pots have been released for sale who are really good players and might even be as good or better than you.

    My last and only point that I'd like to leave you with is that I don't feel the need to change the game in ways that aren't broken. Turbine has enough of a problem releasing recurring events let alone new content.

    Don't drink pots if you don't like them.
    Are you serious? In ways that ARENT BROKEN?

    Endless mana potions are what is broken about the game.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  7. #547
    Hero NancyD's Avatar
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    Default Poorly built office buildings

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Now who would you rather be designing your office building? [The] crew who went to college for engineering, or the crew who got their proof of education from a cracker jack box?
    Top ten reasons why Gunga might prefer the poorly educated architect

    10. My cousin is one, working his way up from carpenter and using common sense. Sure, he quaffs mana potion equivalents (beer), but he is self-employed and can do what he wants. And what he wants is to design for the customer, not to show off a high-priced education.

    9. Cracker Jack University graduates, while struggling with weight issues, have more fun.

    8. Gunga -- the person you addressed your question to -- would prefer the dim-witted architect, for such a person is more likely to choose a site location conducive to lunch-time brawls organized through a separate website.

    7. One word: Gaudi

    6. The well-educated architect got her Ivy League entrance and education on account of daddy's money, compensated for being deprived of mana potions by using heroin, which is far more addictive and destructive. For a brand education can be a disincentive to focus and work hard, whereas the Cracker Jack architect has a chip on his shoulder amd something to prove.

    5. Gunga does not work in an office because it is well know that he plays ddo all day, and hence the cheaper architect works out better. Seriously, office building is so 2000. Comouters and remote access, with occasional visits to others' office buildings.

    4. If the highly educated architect runs into a snag and need to payoff a city inspector who is wrongfully extorting him, he might not get off his high horse and do so, all to show everyone on the project what a high-minded architect he is. Whereas the Cracker Jack guy is flexible, has a sense of humor, and is less likely to deep six the office project just to show to the world what he already knows: he doesn't HAVE to take the shortcut and oay up, but what the hell, it is only a game.

    3. Gunga might prefer the poorly educated architect to prove you wrong and see how you reacted.

    2. The highly educated architect tends to troll himself in the DDO forums, and Gunga, being from New Jersey, has enough trolls in his life already.

    And the number one reason to go with the Cracker Jack diploma:

    1. Curiosity to see what will happen, for it's all just a game.
    /Nancy

    NancyPDoyle, Dubitable, Bluer, Perisher, NPD, OttoAttack, and others, all on Khyber

  8. #548
    Community Member Gunga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Endless mana potions are what is broken about the game.
    If there's one thing that I know, it's that you think there is something wrong with me drinking pots if I feel like it. I say mind your own business.

    As far as breaking the game goes, that's something you've yet to show any proof of.

  9. #549
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Man what happened I used to agree with 99% of your posts. This is pure theory crafting, it simply isn't what actually happens in the game, SP pots cost money, and almost everyone I've ever heard in game VERY MUCH DOESN'T WANT TO USE ONE. Not ONE, let alone habitually chug them! Like "Look this is going bad, and I don't want to drink a pot" and "look I'll keep healing but I'm going to have to down a major" and "if you need to drink a pot keep track and let me know and I'll replace them when we fo"... What you don't actually see in game is:

    Duh I love downing these expensive SP pots, so Ima spam crappy SP inefficient spells and totally not pay attention to whats effective or not, not use meta's smartly and just slug away with one shot damage spells until I'm broke or out of TP's to spend on pots...

    Cause that only happens in the minds of people on forums who are crafting theories
    Ive seen alot of habitual chugging with no sense of management or Sp economy applied whatsoever in game actually, so no, it doesnt just happen in the minds of people on the forums. Thats the entire reason there needs to be some limitation. I play on 3 servers regularly, so before we even go there, its not just a small group of noobs on one server (an argument Ive seen attempted before).

    Peoples biggest fear is not wasting pots, its wasting time. I see more complaint threads on the forums about failing a raid and the amount of time wasted. Heaven forbid we fail something we werent ready for - but we dont need to do that, just guzzle our way through it.

    The amount of resources consumed on the other hand, is usually an afterthought in the accomplishment forums.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  10. #550
    Community Member Gunga's Avatar
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    Thanks, Nancy, but when we built our office building, I didn't look for people who graduated great schools. I looked for people who built great buildings.

  11. #551
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunga View Post
    If there's one thing that I know, it's that you think there is something wrong with me drinking pots if I feel like it. I say mind your own business.

    As far as breaking the game goes, that's something you've yet to show any proof of.
    If sp pots weren't in the store would the sp drain in CitW exist? Personally I don't think so.

  12. #552
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunga View Post
    If there's one thing that I know, it's that you think there is something wrong with me drinking pots if I feel like it. I say mind your own business.

    As far as breaking the game goes, that's something you've yet to show any proof of.
    As As far as breaking the game goes, that's something you've yet to admit, even though youve been around for a long time. If you think endless game balance circumvention doesnt break the game, theres nothing anyone can say that will convince you. That doesnt mean Im not correct on the issue however. It just means you refuse to admit it.

    Mind your own business is a generic rebuttal for a debate you have no answer for, and a pretty well rehearsed one at that, which can be used in any debate whatsoever to concede defeat. You got no logical answer for this, so anyone who doesnt support the easy button should just mind their own business. Im a paying customer bud, and im up in this business.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  13. #553
    Community Member Gunga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    If sp pots weren't in the store would the sp drain in CitW exist? Personally I don't think so.
    Raids took 100s of mana pots to perfect before they were available in the store. What happened with those raids? Did the game break? Did everyone stop playing? Did the raids get closed?

    I don't think so.

  14. #554
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunga View Post
    Thanks, Nancy, but when we built our office building, I didn't look for people who graduated great schools. I looked for people who built great buildings.
    There are no great builders in a society where people get their papers to prove they are legit builders from the microtransaction store of education. Theres just a bunch of people who bought their way to success. When the ceiling caves in and theres water spraying everywhere Nancy, dont call us, we'll call you.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  15. #555
    Community Member Gunga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    As As far as breaking the game goes, that's something you've yet to admit, even though youve been around for a long time. If you think endless game balance circumvention doesnt break the game, theres nothing anyone can say that will convince you. That doesnt mean Im not correct on the issue however. It just means you refuse to admit it.

    Mind your own business is a generic rebuttal for a debate you have no answer for, and a pretty well rehearsed one at that, which can be used in any debate whatsoever to concede defeat. You got no logical answer for this, so anyone who doesnt support the easy button should just mind their own business. Im a paying customer bud, and im up in this business.
    This isn't proof of a problem, just more rhetoric. I'm sure that a lot more people would support you if you had some solid evidence of your claims.

  16. #556
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunga View Post
    Raids took 100s of mana pots to perfect before they were available in the store. What happened with those raids? Did the game break? Did everyone stop playing? Did the raids get closed?

    I don't think so.
    Even before that raids took 25-30 failures before consistant completions were possible.

    Mana potions made it so people didnt have to fail at all. They could succeed on their first attempt, knowing absolutely nothing about the raid. Somehow youre refusing this is an easy button. Faulty logic, yet again.

    No one potted their way through VON, Titan, Abbot, or DQ. You either understood the raid mechanics, or you failed.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  17. #557
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunga View Post
    This isn't proof of a problem, just more rhetoric. I'm sure that a lot more people would support you if you had some solid evidence of your claims.
    I do have solid evidence. 6 years of playing this game. If you want to deny history, it doesnt make it untrue.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  18. #558
    Community Member Gunga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Even before that raids took 25-30 failures before consistant completions were possible.

    Mana potions made it so people didnt have to fail at all. They could succeed on their first attempt, knowing absolutely nothing about the raid. Somehow youre refusing this is an easy button. Faulty logic, yet again.

    No one potted their way through VON, Titan, Abbot, or DQ. You either understood the raid mechanics, or you failed.
    Is the fact that you are wrong an eventuality of the quality of your education or of your journey since you graduated?

  19. #559
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunga View Post
    Raids took 100s of mana pots to perfect before they were available in the store. What happened with those raids? Did the game break? Did everyone stop playing? Did the raids get closed?

    I don't think so.
    Those raids are still there but designers are now designing content that takes infinite sp into account by damaging sp and making pot chugging more frequent. Yes you can avoid the beams on some toons but not all and not usually perfectly. This is an example of sp pots breaking parts of the game in terms of level design, and illustrates the problem with pay to win systems.

  20. #560
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunga View Post
    Is the fact that you are wrong an eventuality of the quality of your education or of your journey since you graduated?
    The only time someone starts resorting to insults in a debate is after they have been had like a baby and have no ammo left to banter with in the actual debate itself. You have no answer to my point whatsoever so you start attacking me instead. Enter the ad hominem attacks. This train is never late folks. Its very pattern based and predictale. Ad hominem is nothing more than a poor sport concession of defeat.
    Last edited by Chai; 11-25-2012 at 06:48 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

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