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  1. #501
    Community Member stainer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pHo3nix View Post
    As i said, except those 6 pots some years ago i've never used 1 anymore..if torc+conc opposition+other ways to get sp from in game items aren't enough it just means i'm going to fail cause i'm too weak for the challenge
    I got the jump on putting an end to this con op, torc nonsense.

    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...64#post4779064

  2. #502
    Hatchery Hero Sonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pHo3nix View Post
    Heal scrolls are completely different from sp pots: they are slower to cast, they require you to make a concentration check, they cannot be chain spammed to heal through huge amount of damage, they only heal 1 target at time.
    They cannot be chain spammed? Maybe not immediately, I will give you that. But I guarantee you it saves the day just as an SP pot would. Great hamp and kite scrolling makes it the reason I switched from more caster focus play time to melee. It takes no TP, save some xp, renown, etc. pots and tomes.


    Quote Originally Posted by pHo3nix View Post
    I don't think anyone asked to change heal scrolls, so please, leave them alone
    And here we agree most completely, leave them alone. This should be the mantra for all consumables that can turn a failure into a completion or more importantly: Fun.

    Just as learning tactics has helped lower heal scroll consumption, so do tactics vs. SP pot consumption. Let people learn their own way, and enjoy your game.
    Last edited by Sonos; 11-21-2012 at 05:19 PM.

  3. #503
    Community Member Quetzacoala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pHo3nix View Post
    Indeed, freedom first of all, i think we all agree here.

    But he isn't asking people to stop buying or drinking them, he's just asking to change a game mechanic so that people will be free to drink a pot in desperate moments but won't be able to buy completions, cheapening every kind of achievement.

    Saying that turbine will never change this cause they would lose money doesn't make the OP argument less valid, it just shows how deep we went into a p2w game..
    Whether or not we agree with the fact that people are abusing the game by guzzling mnemonic potions, it is not our place to try to force rules upon them to change their playstyle. In my opinion, if they enjoy succeeding through this manner, then all the power to them.

    Additionally, what happens if an emergency arises in which you need to keep the entire party alive and one potion is not enough? There have been many times when my favored soul has had to drink three major mnemonic potions in a minute to accomplish this and I know that I will be a lot more reluctant to participate in high level content if such a restriction were in place.

    What he is trying to do, for better or for worse, is force other players to play by a playstyle of his preference that will not suit everyone.
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  4. #504
    Community Member pHo3nix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonos View Post
    They cannot be chain spammed? Maybe not immediately, I will give you that. But I guarantee you it saves the day just as an SP pot would. Great hamp and kite scrolling makes it the reason I switched from more caster focus play time to melee. It takes no TP, save some xp, renown, etc. pots and tomes.




    And hear we agree most completely, leave them alone. This should be the mantra for all consumables that can turn a failure into a completion or more importantly: Fun.

    Just as learning tactics has helped lower heal scroll consumption, so do tactics vs. SP pot consumption. Let people learn their own way, and enjoy your game.
    I find sp pots to be way more powerful than heal scrolls

    Anyway we agree on something, unbelievable
    Cannith: Hazrael--Nyal--Thalax

  5. #505
    Hatchery Hero Sonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pHo3nix View Post
    I find sp pots to be way more powerful than heal scrolls

    Anyway we agree on something, unbelievable
    SP pots do nothing for my monk, but heal scrolls get it through an elite Vol and epic quests solo. That was my point.

    When a solo caster goes up against a red name in epics, depending on the red name of course(let's say Crateos for an example), they will most likely spend their load and without conc-opp, torc, bauble, etc. will probably drink a pot maybe 2. On a monk? He will keep on punching, heal, punch, heal, punch, win.

  6. #506
    Community Member pHo3nix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonos View Post
    SP pots do nothing for my monk, but heal scrolls get it through an elite Vol and epic quests solo. That was my point.

    When a solo caster goes up against a red name in epics, depending on the red name of course(let's say Crateos for an example), they will most likely spend their load and without conc-opp, torc, bauble, etc. will probably drink a pot maybe 2. On a monk? He will keep on punching, heal, punch, heal, punch, win.
    Indeed. And that's what should keep melees and casters balanced: casters with sp are way more powerful than melees, the "problem" is that they should learn to manage those sp or they would become pretty worthless. SP pots just remove this limitation, basically making chugging casters too much better than any melee. (talking about EE here, everything else while lvling and any other Epic difficulty is not even worth considering, good casters are way faster than melees and sp are never an issue).
    Cannith: Hazrael--Nyal--Thalax

  7. #507
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pHo3nix View Post
    Indeed. And that's what should keep melees and casters balanced: casters with sp are way more powerful than melees, the "problem" is that they should learn to manage those sp or they would become pretty worthless. SP pots just remove this limitation, basically making chugging casters too much better than any melee. (talking about EE here, everything else while lvling and any other Epic difficulty is not even worth considering, good casters are way faster than melees and sp are never an issue).
    casters are only limited by mana. melees are only limited by healing. how much they bring depends on them and we usually never know in groups. thats where i believe the balance is.

  8. #508
    Community Member Rodasch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by legendlore View Post
    it's hostile, arrogant and unproductive to discuss how a game mechanic can be bypassed with real life money? Maybe you should read your own post plenty hostility there.
    No. Re-read my post and this time, actually pay attention to it's content rather than just looking for things to be defensive about.
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  9. #509
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Many players do not know what it was like before mana pots in DDO. The main reason why mana pots came into being was because sorcerers and wizards only had a limited amount of spell points and quickly ran out back in the old days. Offensive scrolls were more effective in those days and could be bought from the vendors. That is how wizards and sorcerers had something to do when they ran out of spell points.

    Scrolls however were thought of as an inadequate solution at the time; hence, mana pots came into being. With the Free SLAs and echoes of power wizards and sorcerers have something to do now when they get low or run out of spell points. Mana pots now perform a different function one that has made a mockery of DDO. A one minute cooldown still gives players the opportunity to use mana pots and gives wizards and sorcerers something to do when they run out of mana, but it also firmly puts DDO back on track toward the way it is intended to be played.

    Pearls of power and the like are vey limited in D&D. Usable once per level once per day which is actually more limited then using one mana pot per minute. In ten minutes at using one major mana pot per minute that is 300*10 or roughly 3k mana every 10 minutes which is plenty of mana.
    http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Cre...d_Piece_Values
    http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Mage%27s_Lucubration

    As you can see, you can buy item granting unlimited level 1-5 spells for a just 90,000 gold pieces (or craft at cost of 45,000gp and 36000XP), with 1 round cooldown. Sure, its wizard only, but I'm sure those who memorized all source books, official additions and millions of mods can come up with something similiar for other classes, all spell levels
    And I think its more powerful than mana pots in DDO.

  10. #510
    Community Member pHo3nix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Cre...d_Piece_Values
    http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Mage%27s_Lucubration

    As you can see, you can buy item granting unlimited level 1-5 spells for a just 90,000 gold pieces (or craft at cost of 45,000gp and 36000XP), with 1 round cooldown. Sure, its wizard only, but I'm sure those who memorized all source books, official additions and millions of mods can come up with something similiar for other classes, all spell levels
    And I think its more powerful than mana pots in DDO.
    And i think that a sane DM would never let you use an unlimited number of those items.
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  11. #511

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonos View Post
    They cannot be chain spammed? Maybe not immediately, I will give you that. But I guarantee you it saves the day just as an SP pot would. Great hamp and kite scrolling makes it the reason I switched from more caster focus play time to melee. It takes no TP, save some xp, renown, etc. pots and tomes.




    And here we agree most completely, leave them alone. This should be the mantra for all consumables that can turn a failure into a completion or more importantly: Fun.

    Just as learning tactics has helped lower heal scroll consumption, so do tactics vs. SP pot consumption. Let people learn their own way, and enjoy your game.
    You are comparing a single target consumable with an additional heavy AP investment on top of the regular healing investment plus the need for healing amp to go with it in order to break 300 hit points while swapping the scroll in and requiring a concentration check to the ability to drink a potion for 3 quickened mass heals and no equipment swap that heals the party for 600 or 700 or 800+ etc.

    Save the day does not simply equate to save the day in your example because of how much more effective and easy one is to save the day than the other.

    Also, given the fact that item consumption appears to be the expectation for a couple of classes (primarily artificers, bards, and rogues) it becomes important to have such items available for those classes whereas SP pots simply fuel incredibly powerful spells meant to be restricted by SP limitation beyond those SP limitations.

    The real difference of opinion is where players determine crossing the line is.

  12. #512
    Founder Chaos000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    casters are only limited by mana. melees are only limited by healing. how much they bring depends on them and we usually never know in groups. thats where i believe the balance is.
    Excellent point. One could argue that fighters and barbarians put out way too much damage if someone manages their health bar for them during combat. Therefore resticting the amount of healing every character can recieve will help players play better by making it more challenging.
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  13. #513
    Hatchery Hero Sonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
    You are comparing a single target consumable with an additional heavy AP investment on top of the regular healing investment plus the need for healing amp to go with it in order to break 300 hit points while swapping the scroll in and requiring a concentration check to the ability to drink a potion for 3 quickened mass heals and no equipment swap that heals the party for 600 or 700 or 800+ etc.

    Save the day does not simply equate to save the day in your example because of how much more effective and easy one is to save the day than the other.

    Also, given the fact that item consumption appears to be the expectation for a couple of classes (primarily artificers, bards, and rogues) it becomes important to have such items available for those classes whereas SP pots simply fuel incredibly powerful spells meant to be restricted by SP limitation beyond those SP limitations.

    The real difference of opinion is where players determine crossing the line is.
    I am talking about solo viability. Heal scrolls save the day just the same as pots save the day when soloing. And if you have been in some of the groups I've been in(it's gotten a lot better due to channels etc), it is the same as soloing. The investment for a helf monk in hamp is nominal, as well as concentration, so this whole response doesn't really apply. Powerful spells are one thing when you are soloing but it's burst. The melee wins out in the long haul should this timer thing ever go into effect. Or you will just have to invis in a corner and replenish(that sounds like a blast).

  14. #514
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Not sure why this has dragged on so long. It's really simple and has been said before.

    Half Elf cleric dily (OP but cost you)
    Mana pots (OP but will cost you)
    Monk (OP but will cost you)
    Many other things in the store (OP but will cost you)

    No matter if you agree with P2W, or if you consider this P2W, it is here and not going anywhere. Healing options for melee has been discussed many times and will be adjusted once they can figure a way to put a price on it.


    I don’t say any of this to start a flame war or to say it is right. This is just a simple and accurate synopsis considering what we have seen in the store and how Turbine has handled game balance issues. "If you are willing to pay, who cares about balance?"
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  15. #515
    Hatchery Hero Sonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    Not sure why this has dragged on so long. It's really simple and has been said before.

    Half Elf cleric dily (OP but cost you)
    Mana pots (OP but will cost you)
    Monk (OP but will cost you)
    Many other things in the store (OP but will cost you)

    No matter if you agree with P2W, or if you consider this P2W, it is here and not going anywhere. Healing options for melee has been discussed many times and will be adjusted once they can figure a way to put a price on it.


    I don’t say any of this to start a flame war or to say it is right. This is just a simple and accurate synopsis considering what we have seen in the store and how Turbine has handled game balance issues. "If you are willing to pay, who cares about balance?"
    You forgot:

    WF(not OP and will cost you) ;P

  16. #516
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    They need to put a timer on pumpkin pies....... I ate a whole one yesterday and am 1/2 through another this morning.......

  17. #517
    Hatchery Hero Sonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smatt View Post
    They need to put a timer on pumpkin pies....... I ate a whole one yesterday and am 1/2 through another this morning.......

    I disagree. If I wanna eat 2 pies, I should be able to. This does not affect anyone else but me. I don't want some nanny state where people are dictating how I should enjoy my patisseries.

    A timer will just have me sitting in a corner waiting for the opportunity to eat the next piece of pie rather than eating the pieces I want and continuing on with couch/foorball challenges.

    Turns out though, that as time goes on, I'm able to show self-restraint, on my own! :

    I completed the whole Thanksgiving Quest this year and did not down one piece of pie. I realize that a sentiment like that belongs on the Max Congratz thread and not here... so it goes.

  18. #518

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonos View Post
    I disagree. If I wanna eat 2 pies, I should be able to. This does not affect anyone else but me. I don't want some nanny state where people are dictating how I should enjoy my patisseries.

    A timer will just have me sitting in a corner waiting for the opportunity to eat the next piece of pie rather than eating the pieces I want and continuing on with couch/foorball challenges.

    Turns out though, that as time goes on, I'm able to show self-restraint, on my own! :

    I completed the whole Thanksgiving Quest this year and did not down one piece of pie. I realize that a sentiment like that belongs on the Max Congratz thread and not here... so it goes.
    Well no, I disgree, there should be a timer on eating pumkin pies because you might think it doesn't affect others, but the reality is other people wills still need to see and smell you, and some may look at you with disgust. And on top of that, even tho they see you eat pie after pie in order to complete Thanksgiving I doubt any of them will offer you more pies to replace them.

  19. #519
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    *gasp.... I still have pie.. But my punch is on timer.....

  20. #520
    Hatchery Hero Sonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
    Well no, I disgree, there should be a timer on eating pumkin pies because you might think it doesn't affect others, but the reality is other people wills still need to see and smell you, and some may look at you with disgust. And on top of that, even tho they see you eat pie after pie in order to complete Thanksgiving I doubt any of them will offer you more pies to replace them.
    People can squelch me from coming over for Thanksgiving. If they don't like a guy that smells like pumpkin spice than so be it. And as I mentioned, I have learned to complete Thanksgiving without a single piece of pie. Allow me to quote the Dos Equis meme from mobrien316 earlier(may be misquoting but the sentiment is the same):

    Last edited by Sonos; 11-23-2012 at 01:03 PM.

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