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  1. #401
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    why is this even an issue? Dont like it when someone chugs sp pots? Dont group with them.

    If someone is abusing pots then write their name on your friends list add a little note that says sp guzzler and you are done. Then put a smile on your face and walk away reform and go at it again.

    If you are whining about someone elses play style - i just have to ask - why? Why on earth does it matter to you if anybody wants to use their own resources - found or bought - in the game? Does it somehow, someway, diminish what you have been able to accompish, without being a guzzler, in your own private ddo groups guilds and channels?

    I cant see how it does. And if feel that it does you have far deeper issues to deal with than worrying about xXDrriiizzzzttttXx using 8 majors in the Pit or someother god forsaken crawl in the prime material plane.
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  2. #402
    Community Member dirtphillips's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    Guys this thread is just another anti warrior divine thread in disguise. Its clear now that is where it really is directed at. The divines who use mana pots to carry raids or pugs while still having the fun factor of doing more then just healing the others who are actually getting to play because they chose to not have the burden of a blue bar.
    Thank you for this entertaining tidbit. I had no idea of the “burden” that blue bars endure that you talk about. Generally, when I’m on my blue bars, it is the easy button for me. I have to be far less careful about how I play because of my built-in, no cost self sufficiency and the other group members appreciate my presence in the group because I don’t play like a selfish d-bag. I hope your experience with your blue bar toons improves so that you do not feel like it is a burden.

    Back to the OP, idc about cool down timers. It won’t affect me as I rarely use pots on my blue bars. I generally give them to blue bars when in tough raids or a group that went sideways and it would be too painful to re-enter and beat.

    If you think this will balance out the OP-ness of blue bars when compared to strictly melees, you are sadly mistaken. Turbine broke that a long time ago and the recent (unintended) Reconstruct nerf (which got fixed quickly) shows just how pathetic some blue bar players are. I am convinced many primary blue bar players would leave the game if their easy button was balanced to the overall abilities of non-blue bars.

    If you want this change because you think the game is “too easy”, I suggest you self limit your own pot use to increase your own satisfaction. If you are worried about the game being too easy for someone who is not you, well that just smacks of you being upset that others can complete content that you think they should not be able to complete. I do not support that point of view and those sorts of “epeen measuring” people that typically spout such nonsense.
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  3. #403
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Looks like the last few posts are trying to tout the incorrect stance of "if someone else uses endless mana potions it doesnt affect you". I just think its hilarious that the same people who constantly complain about the huge playskill disparity in the PUG scene are in full support of endless mana potions trying to tout that if we dont like it we can choose not to use it and when someone else uses it it doesnt affect us. This is a direct contradiction that skips ludicrous speed on the hilarity meter and goes straight to plaid.

    One is in fact a direct symptom of the other. People can deny this all they want, it doesnt make it less true. When the next wave of "OMG these puggers suck" threads appears Ill be sure to remind those who support endless pay-to-avoid-learning-curve mechanics in DDO that they merely need to thank themselves for the very issue they helped create. Doesnt affect you? We'll see about that.
    Last edited by Chai; 11-19-2012 at 04:39 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  4. #404
    Community Member dirtphillips's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Looks like the last few posts are trying to tout the incorrect stance of "if someone else uses endless mana potions it doesnt affect you". I just think its hilarious that the same people who constantly complain about the huge playskill disparity in the PUG scene are in full support of endless mana potions trying to tout that if we dont like it we can choose not to use it and when someone else uses it it doesnt affect us. This is a direct contradiction that skips ludicrous speed on the hilarity meter and goes straight to plaid.

    One is in fact a direct symptom of the other. People can deny this all they want, it doesnt make it less true. When the next wave of "OMG these puggers suck" threads appears Ill be sure to remind those who support endless pay-to-avoid-learning-curve mechanics in DDO that they merely need to thank themselves for the very issue they helped create. Doesnt affect you? We'll see about that.
    You and I have been on the same side of an argument before, but I fail to understand how endless mana pot usage negatively affects other players any more than the broken balance of blue bars/non-blue bars at the moment.

    If a player chooses a P2W method to keep up or becomes a better, more efficient, more knowledgeable player to complete difficult content, the content does get completed either way. I must be missing something.
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  5. #405
    Hatchery Hero Sonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Looks like the last few posts are trying to tout the incorrect stance of "if someone else uses endless mana potions it doesnt affect you". I just think its hilarious that the same people who constantly complain about the huge playskill disparity in the PUG scene are in full support of endless mana potions trying to tout that if we dont like it we can choose not to use it and when someone else uses it it doesnt affect us. This is a direct contradiction that skips ludicrous speed on the hilarity meter and goes straight to plaid.

    One is in fact a direct symptom of the other. People can deny this all they want, it doesnt make it less true. When the next wave of "OMG these puggers suck" threads appears Ill be sure to remind those who support endless pay-to-avoid-learning-curve mechanics in DDO that they merely need to thank themselves for the very issue they helped create. Doesnt affect you? We'll see about that.

    It's pure e-peen. Why would anyone give a **** about how other's enjoy the game. Why would you say that you have never used a mnemonic on an arcane, either you've never played an arcane or you've only played an arcane in groups of people that are excellent players. Maybe you have a torc, conc-opp, bauble? Come out with the full disclosure because if anything sounds more e-peen than you never using a mnemonic ever on your arcane, I don't know what e-peen is.

    Many people end up using less and less mnemonics as they fine tune their character and figure out the game and it's mechanics. Leave those people be and I will repeat again: PLAY YOUR GAME. Let the rest fund it for you.

  6. #406
    Community Member DDOTalk71's Avatar
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    The problem is that everyone doesn't play the game for the same reason and doesn't enjoy the game the same way.

    Some people like to play the game the PD way.

    Some people like to solo(or duo) things. Even Raids on the hardest difficulty possible.

    Some people like to Alt a lot, trying different build concepts.

    Some people like to raid heavily. They want to challenge themselves and friends with the hardest quests and content.

    Some people want to perfect a build. TRing as fast as possbile to rack up past lives they need and rack up ED XP as fast as possible. For them the quests are a tool to making the build. The build is the challenge, not the quest.

    Some people want to collect gear. It's about getting the Shiny's. Again, the challenge is not so much completing the quest as it is repeating the content to get the drops. The challenge is in the collecting.

    Norg's suggestion does not serve all members of the player base equally. It serves his goal and how enjoys the game, but it would not serve everyone. The solo'er of elite raids/EE content would find their playstyle constricted and their enjoyment lessened. The build focused player who wants to maximize XP per min, not mana per quest would be constricted. The gear collecter who wants to focus on chests/end rewards per min would be constricted.

    As mentioned before, you can self-manage mana pot consumption, if you desire to do so. There is no reason to put a game mechanic in place to create that which you can do yourself.

    Other games have a separate PD server (for example) where a more restrictive rule set is in place. You create a toon there, you have to follow that rule set. I would be more in favor of this kind of restriction on a specific server designed for high quest challenge level/PD gaming. Then, you can go there for that kind of fun and others can use the other server(s) for their kind of fun.

    But to do it on every server would be to favor one play style over another. And unnecessarily so. The rules should be as open as possible and every player can then implement them (or not) to their maximum enjoyment.
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  7. #407
    The Hatchery vVvAiaynAvVv's Avatar
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    Well I have never seen a nerf thread go this long without some action being taken...I may be speculating but thanks a lot OP.....

    What is probably going to happen is they will put a timer on in game mnemonics and leave the store ones without it so all you might have done is make the game that much harder for the "real" players.

    If I stashed 200 mnemonics over the course of a year from looting chests..who are you or anyone else to tell me when and how often I can use them........I will tell you....you are NO ONE.

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  8. #408
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Looks like the last few posts are trying to tout the incorrect stance of "if someone else uses endless mana potions it doesnt affect you".
    It doesn't affect me and hasn't in the two and a half years I've been playing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I just think its hilarious that the same people who constantly complain about the huge playskill disparity in the PUG scene are in full support of endless mana potions trying to tout that if we dont like it we can choose not to use it and when someone else uses it it doesnt affect us.
    I don't complain about this. Ever. What is 'hilarious' is people who do are misdiagnosing the issue.

    The endless mana potions do not affect me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post

    One is in fact a direct symptom of the other. People can deny this all they want, it doesnt make it less true.
    I do deny it because it isn't true. The endless mana potions do not affect me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    When the next wave of "OMG these puggers suck" threads appears Ill be sure to remind those who support endless pay-to-avoid-learning-curve mechanics in DDO that they merely need to thank themselves for the very issue they helped create.
    I think you mistakenly call this 'endless pay-to-avoid-learning-curve mechanics' in order to support this pay-to-win phantom you keep (loudly) chasing.

    I fully support the mana pots and every other convenience item you classify as 'pay-to-win,' and I have not and never will be complaining that puggers suck because of mana pots.

    The endless mana potions do not affect me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Doesnt affect you? We'll see about that.
    That's right, I'll say it one more time: The endless mana pots don't affect me.


    And if the best argument you can craft is that a few people complain about PUG player ability in the forum because they have access to endless mana pots, then you don't have an argument at all for this being pay to win.


    Here's a test: give the greenest player a stack of 1000 majors (you should have plenty seeing as your arcanes never use them, right?) and see how far he gets with it. He will still make some horrible error and die. Over and over and over until he learns the game. Using mana pots only prevents one from learning how conserve spell points, it certainly doesn't make one a good player, let alone allow one to 'win the game.'

    Quote Originally Posted by vVvAiaynAvVv View Post

    If I stashed 200 mnemonics over the course of a year from looting chests..who are you or anyone else to tell me when and how often I can use them........I will tell you....you are NO ONE.
    QFT.
    Last edited by Postumus; 11-19-2012 at 05:51 PM.

  9. #409
    The Hatchery vVvAiaynAvVv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post


    Here's a test: give the greenest player a stack of 1000 majors (you should have plenty seeing as your arcanes never use them, right?) and see how far he gets with it. He will still make some horrible error and die. Over and over and over until he learns the game. Using mana pots only prevents one from learning how conserve spell points, it certainly doesn't make one a good player, let alone allow one to 'win the game.'



    QFT.
    Crud out of +1's for the day...hit me up for it later if I forget

    Indeed mnemonics do not make a good player....skill and skill alone does....show me somone who happily chugs mnemonics whenever they please and I will show you a very poorly played sloppy caster.

    If conservation has to be enforced......well you may have made the caster a bit more mindful...but not of their own will....and when someone has to be forced to do something...how much have you really accomplished?
    Last edited by vVvAiaynAvVv; 11-19-2012 at 05:55 PM.

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  10. #410
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vVvAiaynAvVv View Post


    Indeed mnemonics do not make a good player....skill and skill alone does....show me somone who happily chugs mnemonics whenever they please and I will show you a very poorly played sloppy caster.


    I suppose an argument can be made that for the really great players, a stack of majors is practically rocket fuel, propelling them at speeds through the quest/raid they would never achieve otherwise.

    But I would counter that this is hardly the norm, and that game modifications which penalize the entire player base should not be implemented just to slow down the fastest 1%.

  11. #411
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    How others use mnemonic potions only effects me when we are in the same party. If they choose to suck down mnemonics to subsidize their playstyle, I can no more stop them than anyone else.

    The argument that it does effect others requires exposure. If one is never exposed to a person that spends all their spare change on mnemonics than it can be said that a player doing that will have no effect on them.

    Also, currently there is no proof (or at least substantiated proof) that Turbine has based quest design behind use of mnemonic potions to succeed.

    Personally I use these potions for emergency, which is the reason why I have several 100 in my bank. But I go further, I have actually saved the game for a few would be blue bar users who felt they had to use the DDO store potions to be competitive and the thought of having to spend money to enjoy the game was draining the fun out of the game for them.

  12. #412
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    In the past four years I have been playing, I've seen maybe 2-3 players who tried to chug themselves through a quest.
    That's a very small per cent of people with a blue bar that I have grouped with. So, in my opinion it would affect only a small part of all player population. I believe I could possibly care less about this change if it happens. But not by much.

  13. #413
    Community Member Shyver's Avatar
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    I was really against the idea of having a timer on pots, but the more I think about it the more I'm actually ok with the idea. To me, pots should be a last ditch push to pull yourself/group out of the fire. Not another tool to just power through content.

    That being said, I don't really see how a timer would help with that. With full groups, even moderate casters, shouldn't be using pots all that much except for maybe one here and there as things go sideways. So putting a timer on them wouldn't change the face of the game all that much.

    The only ones I see it having a major impact on the solo/shortman groups and those that want to claim "firsts" on new content and raids. Really I don't care about the second group, and don't see a point to harming those that would rather solo/shortman quests since they are soloing/shortmanning quests and not playing with me.

    So I guess that even though I would +1 based on the thematic nature of pots and D&D lore. I don't see the point in harming/alienating others play styles and don't really see what difference it would make either way.

    So in other words, don't break something that isn't broken for the majority of your player base, just so you can fix it. I think we can all agree there is more than enough other things to fix to go around.
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  14. #414
    The Hatchery vVvAiaynAvVv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    I suppose an argument can be made that for the really great players, a stack of majors is practically rocket fuel, propelling them at speeds through the quest/raid they would never achieve otherwise.

    But I would counter that this is hardly the norm, and that game modifications which penalize the entire player base should not be implemented just to slow down the fastest 1%.
    In the end actually make that maybe .25-.50 percent because at least half of those 1% are so self absorbed and on an ego trip they are sped just as fast as they chug mnemonics to ruin.

    Power easily corrupts....this saying is as old as it it is true. However a truly wise caster willfully knows to conserve....they do not need to be coaxed or forced...so I still do not agree with the OP or anyone else in favor of.

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  15. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Looks like the last few posts are trying to tout the incorrect stance of "if someone else uses endless mana potions it doesnt affect you". I just think its hilarious that the same people who constantly complain about the huge playskill disparity in the PUG scene are in full support of endless mana potions trying to tout that if we dont like it we can choose not to use it and when someone else uses it it doesnt affect us. This is a direct contradiction that skips ludicrous speed on the hilarity meter and goes straight to plaid.

    One is in fact a direct symptom of the other. People can deny this all they want, it doesnt make it less true. When the next wave of "OMG these puggers suck" threads appears Ill be sure to remind those who support endless pay-to-avoid-learning-curve mechanics in DDO that they merely need to thank themselves for the very issue they helped create. Doesnt affect you? We'll see about that.
    utter bunk chai.

    As people move on in this game they realize that endless pot chugging cannot be sustained. The resources are just too expensive. Then the learning about mana conservation begins.

    So yeah, it doesnt affect me in the least. and it doesnt affect you in the slightest because you arent running with the chuggers.
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  16. #416
    Founder Chaos000's Avatar
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    The other idea would be to ask that they no longer give mana pots as a choice of quest reward, drop the mana pot drop rate to that of a shard of a ring of spell storing and up the price of mana pots in the turbine store. The supply will therein diminish due to attrition.
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  17. #417
    The Hatchery vVvAiaynAvVv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaos000 View Post
    The other idea would be to ask that they no longer give mana pots as a choice of quest reward, drop the mana pot drop rate to that of a shard of a ring of spell storing and up the price of mana pots in the turbine store. The supply will therein diminish due to attrition.
    In the end it does not matter...the great will still be great while the jealous will invent new ways to make their fingers longer so they are more noticable when they point them....using what the game used to be to magnify their "grandeur".........but for a new player you are insignificant...unless that new player ever falsely admires you as some sort of god and has low self esteem.
    Last edited by vVvAiaynAvVv; 11-19-2012 at 07:12 PM.

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  18. #418
    Community Member Gunga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    One is in fact a direct symptom of the other. People can deny this all they want, it doesnt make it less true. When the next wave of "OMG these puggers suck" threads appears Ill be sure to remind those who support endless pay-to-avoid-learning-curve mechanics in DDO that they merely need to thank themselves for the very issue they helped create. Doesnt affect you? We'll see about that.
    Nah. Just because you type a lot doesn't make you right. I drink a lot of pots but I'm the best player you've ever seen.

  19. #419
    The Hatchery vVvAiaynAvVv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunga View Post
    Nah. Just because you type a lot doesn't make you right. I drink a lot of pots but I'm the best player you've ever seen.
    Stop it now Gunga...I already +1'ed you ta'day and can't anymore

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  20. #420
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Looks like the last few posts are trying to tout the incorrect stance of "if someone else uses endless mana potions it doesnt affect you".
    Well it does effect you. But how much?

    If people are buying constantly from the store that means the game has the chance to get better.

    If more people play and buy, that shows an increase demand and more people get hired to keep up with demand if it is sustained.

    If a quest is going to be designed to be resource intensive, it will not be for 100 pots consistently. It will maybe have a 10 pot chug at most, but I can guarantee you players will find a way and work it down to zero. CitW is the closest quest I can think of that was designed with pot drinking in mind.

    So does pot drinking effect me? In the grand scheme of things? Only in so far as the money made from it helps to keep the game running. So for those that buy out of the store often, thank you.

    I'm also going to give the people that think a timer (longer than the default 6 seconds) needs to be done with another case setup that DOES exist.
    Parents playing with their children. Obviously the kids aren't going to be the best at playing the game. And parents are going to want their children to have fun. (Succeed is a different story.) How do kids have fun? By not really worrying a whole lot and going in to kill kill kill kill. So what is a parent left to do? EVERYTHING else. Which with how this game goes, may end up being a heal bot for them. You put a timer on that pot, and I can guarantee you, you will have some very sad kids, which will in turn be brought upon the parents, which then get directed at Turbine.

    This game has a huge variety of players. Set your own rules like permadeath must do, but don't expect to change the minds of others with your opinions on stuff like this.
    Last edited by Missing_Minds; 11-19-2012 at 07:31 PM.

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