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  1. #381
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zerkul View Post
    Someone already answered you both, read below.



    Silver Flame Pots can be bought at patron vendor for Platinum.
    Major Mnemonic Enhancers can be bought just off Auction House or found in chests and rewards (or at DDO Store for real money) as an uncommon treasure.

    You can have how many pots your inventory can hold.
    You can have that many Major Mnemonic Enhancers as you found or bought by playing.

    This is a very IMPORTAT difference.

    And furthermore be honest with yourselves: those penalities on the Silver Flame pots are irrelevant → There's a lot of people like me that keep fighting while drinking those and do not heal for 250 hps but for above 500 (healing amplification can be optimized even on pure 20 builds like my Fighter)!

    Silver Flame pots are the real difference between life and death for melees like Majors Mnemonic Enhancers can be for casters.
    No actually you can have as many mana potions as you are willing to spend turbine points on.

    My comparison was literally fair to the letter. Put a -10 to all stat and -5 saves (which stacks to -10 saves due to the -10 to all stat providing ANOTHER -5 to saves) penalty on mana potions, along with the same movement penalty silver flame potions get. You want to carry on about silver flame potions pointing out their advantages, but want to gloss over their disadvantages.

    If you think -10 to all stats, saves - 100 HP and movement penalty is irrelevant, then why not support the same penalty on mana potions then? Im pretty sure you dont think those penalties are irrelevant, youre simply dismissing the facts out of hand because they dont support your stance on the issue.

    Majors are far more powerful than silver flame pots. By guzzling majors, a divine can keep the entire raid alive with no stat penalties whatsoever. Its a pay to win situation. Spend Turbine points to circumvent the spell point limitation, and keep everyone healed up. Silver flame pots keeps one person alive with a penalty, mana potions keep 12 people alive, with no penalty.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  2. #382
    The Hatchery samthedagger's Avatar
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    OP is correct. There are no mana pots in D&D. What there are however are pearls of power (easy to craft and cheap), wands, and scrolls with much better viability than in DDO. Don't compare DDO to D&D.

    Second point: mnemonic pots are rare and expensive. You can buy them in the DDO store too, but IME only p2p people do this, and they are in the minority.

    Third point: I usually don't need pots to finish quests on my casters/divines. But they are there for when someone makes a dumb mistake or you have a string of bad luck. A few 1s on saving throws can really mess up your day.

    Fourth point: Turbine makes money selling the pots in the store. They are popular items. They aren't gonna ditch em.

  3. #383
    Hatchery Hero Sonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    No actually you can have as many mana potions as you are willing to spend turbine points on.

    My comparison was literally fair to the letter. Put a -10 to all stat and -5 saves (which stacks to -10 saves due to the -10 to all stat providing ANOTHER -5 to saves) penalty on mana potions, along with the same movement penalty silver flame potions get. You want to carry on about silver flame potions pointing out their advantages, but want to gloss over their disadvantages.

    If you think -10 to all stats, saves - 100 HP and movement penalty is irrelevant, then why not support the same penalty on mana potions then? Im pretty sure you dont think those penalties are irrelevant, youre simply dismissing the facts out of hand because they dont support your stance on the issue.

    Majors are far more powerful than silver flame pots. By guzzling majors, a divine can keep the entire raid alive with no stat penalties whatsoever. Its a pay to win situation. Spend Turbine points to circumvent the spell point limitation, and keep everyone healed up. Silver flame pots keeps one person alive with a penalty, mana potions keep 12 people alive, with no penalty.

    With DC's being crucial to certain classes, there is going to most likely be a stat that is below 10 at early levels. And these penalties would render that character helpless.

    My monk toon has a nice spread on stats and can use SF(but they just sit there in the bank). I scroll to win on my monk, no one seems to mind that but when it comes to paying real life money that extends the life of the game via updates and new content...

  4. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    No actually you can have as many mana potions as you are willing to spend turbine points on.

    My comparison was literally fair to the letter. Put a -10 to all stat and -5 saves (which stacks to -10 saves due to the -10 to all stat providing ANOTHER -5 to saves) penalty on mana potions, along with the same movement penalty silver flame potions get. You want to carry on about silver flame potions pointing out their advantages, but want to gloss over their disadvantages.

    If you think -10 to all stats, saves - 100 HP and movement penalty is irrelevant, then why not support the same penalty on mana potions then? Im pretty sure you dont think those penalties are irrelevant, youre simply dismissing the facts out of hand because they dont support your stance on the issue.

    Majors are far more powerful than silver flame pots. By guzzling majors, a divine can keep the entire raid alive with no stat penalties whatsoever. Its a pay to win situation. Spend Turbine points to circumvent the spell point limitation, and keep everyone healed up. Silver flame pots keeps one person alive with a penalty, mana potions keep 12 people alive, with no penalty.
    And why are you harping on about raids and a cleric keeping them going, that is the whole point of how turbine capitalizes on the hard core addiction of those players by making them virtually need the mana pots until they are known so well they are easy to meta game through.

    You cant discount that first of all its still only going to HURT turbine if you all stuck on the anti caster band wagon could get that through your skulls. I can happily admit some time ago when they where on sale I bought several stacks of 100 of the best mana pots on the store. I have used maybe 7 of those since. 3 got sucked down in a row while I was out having mindless fun and didnt want to worry over spell point conservation.

    WHich guess what is the main point barbarian players throw at divines who complain over the role of heal bot. I hear barbs on the forums all the time say, why cant the cleric shut up and heal so I can have fun running around swinging at things without worrying over my red bar. I would put that up as the number one reason/complaint behind people wanting clerics to be good little nannies who cant do other then heal lest the game fall to ruin.

    Guys this thread is just another anti warrior divine thread in disguise. Its clear now that is where it really is directed at. The divines who use mana pots to carry raids or pugs while still having the fun factor of doing more then just healing the others who are actually getting to play because they chose to not have the burden of a blue bar.

    This entire argument is B S ! In PnP D20 there is a very good comparison to the spell point system of DDO. It was Diablo D20. it used a spell point system, and guess what? it had mana pots. And played alot like DDO, a hack and slash fest D20 D&D system.

    WE ALL PLAY DDO TO DO BATTLE! For casters who are expected and depended upon to carry the mundane men of steel and skill in end game with buffs and heals, in a spell point Diablo style D20 system as we have here, mana pots and being able to chug them is essential.

    Its also funny how people forget they are the cure for feeble mind. Feeble mind is as close to dead with out being dead, as a caster can get. Its more detrimental then a barb hit by ray of enfeeblement. I can think back to when invaders was first added, the amount of feeble mind being spammed in there by enemy casters. I think i chugged more minor mneu pots in that kind of sitch then anywhere else.

    People also back then where willing to kill xp on a first run going in over and over after falling back to the inn. Proving success was more important then anything else.

    People who try to stand up on some virtual soap box of morality connected with some fictional ideal of how we all should be playing this game are great, Ive been there and done that to. At least Im able to admit those where moot rants fueled by frustration.

  5. #385
    Community Member mobrien316's Avatar
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    If you want to make it a point of personal pride that you never drink an SP pot, good for you. There are lots of ways to make the game more challenging, and that is one of them.


    If other people enjoy the option of using pots when they want to or need to, that shouldn't bother anyone in the slightest. If you don't want to use a pot, don't. If you don't like grouping with people that use pots, put that on your LFM's.


    As previously mentioned, in the sixty-odd cleric levels my fourth life character has, I have never heard anyone complain when I drank a pot in order to keep healing a tough raid or a tough quest. It simply has never happened. And I don't ever expect it to. I have never encountered anyone in-game who objects to other people drinking pots, though I have met a lot who object to anyone's suggestion that they drink a pot.
    All on Thelanis: Archenpaul Sixblade, Archernicus Thornwood, Gregorovic Redcloak, Hermanius Brightblade, Jaklomeo Evermug, Jonathraxius Kane, and Praetoreus Silvershield.

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  6. #386
    Community Member Gunga's Avatar
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    Rather than nerf yet another function of the game that is actually working perfectly well, how about we put a timer on how many nerf threads someone can start? Say, after starting a nerf thread, that member of the ddo community would be on timer for 3 years before starting another. That seems equitable.

    Thanks.

  7. #387
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Many players do not know what it was like before mana pots in DDO. The main reason why mana pots came into being was because sorcerers and wizards only had a limited amount of spell points and quickly ran out back in the old days. Offensive scrolls were more effective in those days and could be bought from the vendors. That is how wizards and sorcerers had something to do when they ran out of spell points.

    Scrolls however were thought of as an inadequate solution at the time; hence, mana pots came into being. With the Free SLAs and echoes of power wizards and sorcerers have something to do now when they get low or run out of spell points. Mana pots now perform a different function one that has made a mockery of DDO. A one minute cooldown still gives players the opportunity to use mana pots and gives wizards and sorcerers something to do when they run out of mana, but it also firmly puts DDO back on track toward the way it is intended to be played.

    Pearls of power and the like are vey limited in D&D. Usable once per level once per day which is actually more limited then using one mana pot per minute. In ten minutes at using one major mana pot per minute that is 300*10 or roughly 3k mana every 10 minutes which is plenty of mana.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  8. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Pearls of power and the like are vey limited in D&D. Usable once per level once per day which is actually more limited then using one mana pot per minute. In ten minutes at using one major mana pot per minute that is 300*10 or roughly 3k mana every 10 minutes which is plenty of mana.
    Except Pearls of power don't take up a slot and a character could have an infinite number of them, just according to how much cash they could afford to spend on them.

    Even worse the Psionic equivalent (I forget the name) which basically just restored a set number of 'spell points'. Sure, once per day, but a character could have as many as they could afford to buy, and keep them all in a bag of holding or whatever.


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  9. #389
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Offensive scrolls were more effective in those days and could be bought from the vendors. That is how wizards and sorcerers had something to do when they ran out of spell points.

    Scrolls however were thought of as an inadequate solution at the time; hence, mana pots came into being.
    Scrolls were deemed too powerful as anyone with UMD could fake being an arcane and Wall of Fire their way through a quest.

    This happened OFTEN, to the point many a pug didn't bother with a direct arcane. Hence why a certain selection of scrolls got pulled from venders.

  10. #390
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrkGrismer View Post
    Except Pearls of power don't take up a slot and a character could have an infinite number of them, just according to how much cash they could afford to spend on them.

    Even worse the Psionic equivalent (I forget the name) which basically just restored a set number of 'spell points'. Sure, once per day, but a character could have as many as they could afford to buy, and keep them all in a bag of holding or whatever.
    This is ridiculous. A level 17 wizard can restore 9 spells of 9 different levels assuming they had 9 pearl of powers one for each level 1-9. Using a pearl of power takes a standard action which is going to likely being the only action that wizard can take that round unless they cast a quicken spell or something. The pearls of power are extremely expensive especially the higher the level so it is unlikely a wizard is going to have more then a couple. Comparing this to a mana pot every minute is silly.

    This Psionic equivalent your refer to is most definitly not in any 3.5 core or remotely core book. If anything it is in something like the complete psionic 3.5. I personally have never heard of it and sounds made up.
    Last edited by maddmatt70; 11-19-2012 at 02:25 PM.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  11. #391
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    Scrolls were deemed too powerful as anyone with UMD could fake being an arcane and Wall of Fire their way through a quest.

    This happened OFTEN, to the point many a pug didn't bother with a direct arcane. Hence why a certain selection of scrolls got pulled from venders.
    As I said scrolls were an inadequate solution to the problem, but now sorcerers and wizards have more spell points, echoes of power, and free slas. A pot a minute is a sound recommendation in light of the changes to the sorcerer and wizard classes over the years.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  12. #392
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    I say lets skip the series of nerfs and go straight to all death = permadeath and character deletion. You want challenge or fun?

  13. #393
    Community Member Gunga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    A pot a minute is a sound recommendation in light of the changes to the sorcerer and wizard classes over the years.
    If the pot is worth two thousand spell points, I could go with that.

  14. #394
    Community Member zarthak's Avatar
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    gunga, check ur forum mail.


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  15. #395
    Founder Chaos000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    Scrolls were deemed too powerful as anyone with UMD could fake being an arcane and Wall of Fire their way through a quest.

    This happened OFTEN, to the point many a pug didn't bother with a direct arcane. Hence why a certain selection of scrolls got pulled from venders.
    Cooldowns used to be much more forgiving as well. I remember when a scroll/wand umd healer could outheal a divine that chose not to use consumables for healing. It was nice when a bard could take the place of a cleric (no fvs during that time) but that era has passed. Now you pretty much have to "wait for a healer" or call out a hireling who seems to have a delayed reaction when it comes to heals.

    mmmm stacking firewalls multiple times to take out the dwarves in BAM.... 15 blade barriers via scroll to kite renders through in Co6...

    I understand the reason behind it but it did take away some elements of fun in the game for me. I was left with 500 blade barrier scrolls and nothing to do with them. Then came artificer class and a larger demand on the AH for the scrolls... good times.

    Back on topic. Increase the timers on ALL potions to 15 seconds should be more than enough to make "potion guzzling" less of a "thing" and the content (like the no healing curse from vision of destruction) much more challenging.
    Daishado

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  16. #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    This is ridiculous. A level 17 wizard can restore 9 spells of 9 different levels assuming they had 9 pearl of powers one for each level 1-9. Using a pearl of power takes a standard action which is going to likely being the only action that wizard can take. The pearls of power are extremely expensive especially the higher the level so it is unlikely a wizard is going to have more then a couple. Comparing this to a mana pot every minute is silly.

    This Psionic equivalent your refer to is most definitly not in any 3.5 core or remotely core book. If anything it is in something like the complete psionic 3.5. I personally have never heard of it and sounds made up.
    There is no limit on how many pearls of power a wizard can have, beyond the wealth the character is allowed to have (by the GM). The DDO GM is pretty darn 'Monty Haul' so using 'what a character can afford' as a limiting factor is pretty flimsy. Prices 'by the book' for pearl of power is 1,000 gp (1st), 4,000 gp (2nd), 9,000 gp (3rd), 16,000 gp (4th), 25,000 gp (5th), 36,000 gp (6th), 49,000 gp (7th), 64,000 gp (8th), 81,000 gp (9th). DDO doesn't use a direct conversion but even if those were changed into plat if a character in DDO could use an unlmited number of PP we would be wishing for 'mana potions'.

    Oops, I was a little wrong on how it worked, (that's what I get for going from memory) it doesn't technically restore SP but it effectively does the same thing, since the Psion can use the SP stored in it:

    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/it...ceCrystals.htm
    Cognizance Crystals

    Cognizance crystals store power points that psionic characters can use to pay for manifesting their powers.
    Table: Cognizance Crystals Minor Medium Major Maximum
    Power Point
    Storage Market Price 01-90 01-40 — 1 1,000 gp 91-100 41-74 — 3 4,000 gp — 75-89 01-39 5 9,000 gp — 90-98 40-59 7 16,000 gp — 99-100 60-69 9 25,000 gp — — 70-70 11 36,000 gp — — 80-89 13 49,000 gp — — 90-95 15 64,000 gp — — 96-100 17 81,000 gp Physical Description

    A cognizance crystal consists of a core crystal and two or three smaller crystals arranged in specific positions around it on strands of silver wire. The crystals give off a faint glow. A typical cognizance crystal weighs approximately 1 pound, has AC 7, 10 hit points, a hardness of 8, and a break DC of 16.
    Activation

    The user must merely hold or have a crystal on her person for a period of at least 10 minutes (which is long enough to attune oneself to the crystal). Thereafter, the owner can use power points stored in the crystal to manifest powers she knows.
    The maximum number of points a cognizance crystal can store is always an odd number and is never more than 17. It can store only as many power points as its original maximum, set at the time of its creation. When a cognizance crystal’s power points are used up, the glow of the crystal dims. However, the user can recharge it by paying power points on a 1-for-1 basis. While doing this depletes the user’s own power point reserve for the day, those power points remain available in the cognizance crystal until used.
    A user cannot directly replenish her personal power points from those stored in a cognizance crystal, nor can she draw power points from more than one source to manifest a power. See Using Stored Power Points for more information.
    Faint to strong psychokinesis; ML equal to maximum power point storage; Craft Cognizance Crystal; Weight 1 lb.
    Note, no limits beyond wealth on how many a character can have.


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  17. #397
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    As I said scrolls were an inadequate solution to the problem
    Note that I did not correct your statement at all, but the change to scrolls was only half explained, so I finished it.

  18. #398
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    This Psionic equivalent your refer to is most definitly not in any 3.5 core or remotely core book. If anything it is in something like the complete psionic 3.5. I personally have never heard of it and sounds made up.
    While not the item in question, there is a spell that does something similar for psions.

    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/sp...nsference.htm#

  19. #399
    Community Member Grosbeak07's Avatar
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    This thread is now at 20 pages... and is like a dog chasing its tail.

    Good for a laugh, but it won't end with anyone happy, once it finally catches it.

    The only thing you should worry about is how you play, not how anyone else plays.

    Let it go.
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  20. #400
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drakesan View Post
    And while you are at it, why don't you jump on here and tell me how to play the rest of my characters?

    Serious question here, why do you feel that how I play my characters has ANY impact on you at all? Leave me alone and play how you want to.
    This.

    /not signed

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